RE: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs
From: Natalie Buxton This discussion has finally convinced me that breadcrumb trails should not be marked up as lists. Without the entire path, it doesn't matter where the actual href goes. For instance: I tell a user that the file they want is in the folder widgets. They go looking for their file in c:/widgets. Because I neglected to tell them that they need to look in c:/stuff/widgets they are left confused and wondering what happened. Well, to me that reinforces the concept that ordered lists are appropriate. Again, in an ordered list, you can't really remove one of the items, particularly if the ordered list denotes a step-by-step process (such as how to get to the current page starting from the homepage). At the end of the day, it's a judgement call...and discussing the finer points of semantics in a markup language as coarse and unsuitable as HTML ends up being a tad futile, in my humble opinion... Patrick Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Some links for light reading (6/12/04)
Ok, settle in for a lot of light reading. It's been a busy week! Solving CSS problems for Mozilla Europe http://www.1976design.com/blog/archive/2004/11/21/solving-css-problems-mozil la-europe/ Turning the tables using CSS: http://www.apple.com/pro/words/meyer/ Accessibility on a shoe-string: http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/accessibility_on_a_shoestring.htm l Some new entries into CSS Zen Garden: http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=140%2F140%2Ecss http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=139%2F139%2Ecss http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=138%2F138%2Ecss http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=137%2F137%2Ecss A very nice CSS site: http://thecookinggame.com/ sIRF 2.0 - Release Candidate 2.0 is finally here: http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/12/sifr-2.0-release-candidat e-2 How Mozilla determines MIME Types: http://www.mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/mimetypes.html Patrick Griffiths has an XHTML/CSS book coming out: http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/80.php And while you are there, an interesting read... Strictly Speaking: http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/78.php Joe Gillespie retires: http://www.wpdfd.com/index.htm http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/wpd1204news.htm#feature Finding the sweet spot: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/finding_the_sweet_spot/ Heisenberg usability principle: http://www.ok-cancel.com/archives/post/2004/12/heisenberg_usability_principl e.html Remote control CSS revisited - caving in to peer pressure http://web-graphics.com/mtarchive/001466.php This map is an amazing example of an unordered list: http://www.powderseekers.com/resorts.aspx?contID=3 Some interesting examples of French CSS-based lists: http://www.alsacreations.com/articles/modelesmenus/ A quirky French list example: http://www.alsacreations.com/articles/modelesmenus/g04.htm And finally, to follow on from the recent discussions on adding :focus to links, I had forgotten this gem hidden in the CSS Crib Sheet: Remember LoVe/HAte linking. When specifying link pseudo-classes, always do so in this order: Link, Visited, Hover, Active. Any other order won¹t work consistently. Consider using :focus as well, and modify the order to LVHFA (or Lord Vader's Handle Formerly Anakin, as suggested by Matt Haughey) http://www.mezzoblue.com/css/cribsheet/ Thanks Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs
Kevin Futter wrote: Less important doesn't mean not important. Exactly, which is why I didn't say not important ... ...which is a reason why it is unlike a sentence. The words of a sentence need their organization within the sentence to be useful. You can slice it and dice it however you want, but 'order' does not mean 'hierarchy'. It certainly can, and it works with both type of breadcrumbs. If breadcrumbs show where you are in the site you get: Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5 If, on the other had, they show you where you've been, you get: Stop 1 Stop 2 Stop 3 Stop 4 Stop 5 Either way, the order describes a form of hierarchy. Any given unit cannot exist in the same physical or virtual space as any other unit, so it has to displaced from them. This displacement has to be ordered, sometimes arbitrarily; the result is not necessarily a hierarchy, and it is folly to assume that it is so. By definition, breadcrumbs must have an order which either reflects the site informational hierarchy of the a visitor's route since arriving. Take away the order and what you're left with is just another navigation list. Which just goes to show that all breadcrumbs are is a navigation list in a particular order. Order is horizontal integration, hierarchy is vertical integration. As stated above, hierarchy is also an order. If you picture the structure of a site where depth is vertical and pages of equal depth are horizontally apart from one another, vertical is the only meaningful order you're left with. Perhaps, but Web standards semantics are not the same as linguistic semantics, and neither has much to do with the compressed meaning a single word can contain. When marking up a site, all you have to work with are words. How the words relate to their immediate neighbors as compared to the rest of the page are the only tools available to determine which tags would be semantically correct. Time to call a truce? I am unwilling to change my view as I've seen no reason to do so; in fact, I believe even more strongly now in what I'm saying that I did when this discussion began. If you want to leave it at that, I won't object (not that an objection would be worth much, anyway). -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.6 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs
Patrick Lauke wrote: ...and discussing the finer points of semantics in a markup language as coarse and unsuitable as HTML ends up being a tad futile Futile? Perhaps sometimes. Though I must admit, when there is a good reason to do so (what's a good reason is admittedly subjective) I find splitting hairs to be enjoyable. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.289 / Virus Database: 265.4.6 - Release Date: 12/5/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Site Check: AITP; Illowa Chapter
Hi everyone, first time for me to ask for you all to check a site for me, but I'm sure it won't be the last. I believe it renders fine in most browsers, except one flaw (advice would be MOST welcome): I have no clue how to get the navbar to render fully - if there is more content than navigation links (or you simply resize it smaller so that it overflows). I'd ideally like the navbar section to be a solid color all the way to the footer. Any suggestions? a href=http://143.226.165.202/other/aitp;Illowa Chapter; AITP/a I've tried using the: min-height; but it won't render correctly in IE. So, I'm stumped. Thanks a million! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] a quick target question
Could someone give me the appropriate replacement for target=_blank. I can't remember the correct javascript statement that opens it in a new window. I'm sure others could use it as well. Thank you Ted Drake Web Content Editor CSA Travel Protection http://www.csatravelprotection.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
use window.open . Ted Drake wrote: Could someone give me the appropriate replacement for target=_blank. I can't remember the correct javascript statement that opens it in a new window. I'm sure others could use it as well. Thank you Ted Drake Web Content Editor CSA Travel Protection http://www.csatravelprotection.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** . ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
a href=wharever.com onkeypress=window.open(this.href); return false; onclick=window.open(this.href); return false;Whatever.com/a HTH ~Veine At 09:28 AM 12/6/2004 -0800, you wrote: Could someone give me the appropriate replacement for target=_blank. I can't remember the correct javascript statement that opens it in a new window. I'm sure others could use it as well. Thank you Ted Drake Web Content Editor CSA Travel Protection http://www.csatravelprotection.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.805 / Virus Database: 547 - Release Date: 12/3/2004 Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
Veine K Vikberg wrote: a href=wharever.com onkeypress=window.open(this.href); return false; onclick=window.open(this.href); return false;Whatever.com/a *Don't* use onkeypress, as Mozilla browsers - and rightly so - treat a TAB as a keypress as well. Using onkeypress makes it impossible for users to TAB beyond that particular link. Onclick is, despite its name, device independent, as the vast majority of browsers (I'm actually compiling a list which I'll publish later tonight) trigger the event via the keyboard as well (in the case of a link, hitting enter will trigger the onclick) -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] a quick target question
I'm a bit confused by the (this.href) code. Should I replace that with the page in the href= section or is it looking back at the href and use that url? I understand the repetition for keypress/onclick are for those without a mouse and those with a mouse. n'est-ce pas? Ted -Original Message- From: Veine K Vikberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] a href=wharever.com onkeypress=window.open(this.href); return false; onclick=window.open(this.href); return false;Whatever.com/a HTH ~Veine At 09:28 AM 12/6/2004 -0800, you wrote: Could someone give me the appropriate replacement for target=_blank. I can't remember the correct javascript statement that opens it in a new window. I'm sure others could use it as well. Thank you ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
At 10:03 AM 12/6/04, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: *Don't* use onkeypress, as Mozilla browsers - and rightly so - treat a TAB as a keypress as well. Using onkeypress makes it impossible for users to TAB beyond that particular link. Isn't it true that, if one did use onkeypress, the attached event handler could examine the key value and allow TAB to pass through untrapped? I'm not one to advocate unnecessarily complicated code when a simpler method is close at hand, but 'impossible' is a strong assertion. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] a quick target question
At 10:11 AM 12/6/04, Ted Drake wrote: I'm a bit confused by the (this.href) code. Should I replace that with the page in the href= section or is it looking back at the href and use that url? -Original Message- From: Veine K Vikberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] a href=wharever.com onkeypress=window.open(this.href); return false; onclick=window.open(this.href); return false;Whatever.com/a The keyword 'this' refers to the object at hand: in this context, this refers to the a element in the Document Object Model. You can find an excellent introduction to scripting events on Peter-Paul Koch's http://www.quirksmode.org/ Aside, while it may be convenient to embed javascript in HTML tags by way of illustration, let me reiterate the oft-made point that doing so in practice is a mistake, for at least these two reasons: 1) User agents that don't support the scripting language or any of the functions used in the script will throw an untrappable error. Better to apply behavior to objects on the page from a safe distance whereby nothing occurs when the script is unsupported. The most common way to do this is to engage an initialization script with the window.onload event which checks specifically for support before adding behavior to objects on the page. 2) Separating content (HTML markup) from behavior (script) from style (CSS) is A Good Thing because modular software is easier to maintain, and because old, cranky, or idiosyncratic browsers can more easily be protected from components they don't support. I would therefore mark up that tag (uniquely identified so a script can find it easily) simply as: a id=unique123 href=whatever.comWhatever.com/a or: div id=unique123 a href=whatever.comWhatever.com/a /div and apply the behaviors separately from a linked script. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
Ted Drake wrote: Could someone give me the appropriate replacement for target=_blank. I can't remember the correct javascript statement that opens it in a new window. I'm sure others could use it as well. Rather than a replacement it's best to include both, a href=popup.html target=_blank onclick=window.open(...);return falsepopup/a This is so older browsers, and search engines, can follow popup links, but newer browsers that use the onclick ignore the href because of onclick's 'return false'. See http://www.alistapart.com/articles/popuplinks/ .Matthew Cruickshank http://holloway.co.nz/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New Windows
Fresh meat: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20041206.html -- I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.John 14:6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New Windows
At 11:11 AM 12/6/04, Felix Miata wrote: Fresh meat: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20041206.html Yes, but only 605 respondents?! Yikes, that's a small sample. Nielsen's results, satisfying as they are to one allergic to commercialism, would carry more weight if the sample size were significantly greater. Perhaps someone blessed with a memory for statistical math can confirm how large a website-viewing population can be significantly sampled by just 605 respondents. Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs
Mordechai, I too enjoy splitting hairs. I hope no one objects to my chiming in. Breadcrumbs are a construct without a solid definition, from which I think much disagreement arises. Typically, they reflect the notional path to a page (the path according to where the user believes themselves to be), although often they reflect the logical path (where the file is in the directory structure) or the historical path (where the user had gone to get to where they are). Historical paths are linear. The trouble with using ordered lists for them is not so much the semantics as programming: how do you recognize the difference between a click forward, then back to abort, then forward to the place the user intended, from an honest forward-back-forward to something else? Well, those sorts of breadcrumbs I find tedious because I've already got a back button and Amazon certainly is trying to patent The Page You Made anyway. Both logical and notional paths are derived from a hierarchal tree but are themselves linear. (Non-tree hierarchies are possible, with non-parent/child cross-linking, but why confuse the discussion more?) Between the current node (the page) and the greatest ancestor node (the home page) there exists only a single path of nodes in a specific order. This lineage is, by definition, linear and ordered. This makes it a prime candidate for an ordered list; this is what ordered lists are. Many arguments in this thread used the words hierarchy and order and list to explain a problem that was really about completeness. Can an ordered list survive the removal of a member? Depends on the relationship between list items. A notional path certainly could survive such a removal; civilization does not collapse because our addresses on postal mail do not include the county even though they include the city and state. A logical path could not survive such a removal, any more than you could drive to California and enter Los Angeles before entering Los Angeles County. Does your lineage denote the next ancestor/descendant (i.e., parent/child) relationship? Or does it merely indicate an ancestor/descendant relationship? Is it notional or logical? Is it complete? These answers are about personal style and the intent of the breadcrumbs as a solution. The nature of the solution depends on your answers. However, the path is the order and not the items. -- Ben Curtis WebSciences International http://www.websciences.org/ v: (310) 478-6648 f: (310) 235-2067 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Another three WSG events in a row
Wednesday 08 December, 2004 Brisbane, Australia December Meeting Now and Zen - CSS, the reality and the fantasy. http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event20.cfm Thursday 09 December, 2004 Wellington New Zealand WSG meeting Introduction to WSG, Web standards in practice http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event24.cfm Friday 10 December, 2004 Sydney, Australia December Meeting End of Year Drinks http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event25.cfm Hope to see all you Sydney WSG members on the 10th. I just realised that is this Friday and I don't have a thing to wear! Early next year we will have a few more cities up and running. Stay tuned. Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
unless, of course, you are using a DTD that doesn't include target=_blank, such as XHTML 1.0 strict or XHTML 1.0. On 2004-12-07 8:07 AM, Matthew Cruickshank wrote: Rather than a replacement it's best to include both, a href=popup.html target=_blank onclick=window.open(...);return falsepopup/a This is so older browsers, and search engines, can follow popup links, but newer browsers that use the onclick ignore the href because of onclick's 'return false'. -- You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
Just use target=_blank and use my DTD which is modified to allow the target=_blank !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC XHTML 1.01 Strict http://www.neester.com/DTD/xhtml-target.dtd; Matthew Cruickshank wrote: Ted Drake wrote: Could someone give me the appropriate replacement for target=_blank. I can't remember the correct javascript statement that opens it in a new window. I'm sure others could use it as well. Rather than a replacement it's best to include both, a href=popup.html target=_blank onclick=window.open(...);return falsepopup/a This is so older browsers, and search engines, can follow popup links, but newer browsers that use the onclick ignore the href because of onclick's 'return false'. See http://www.alistapart.com/articles/popuplinks/ .Matthew Cruickshank http://holloway.co.nz/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs
Well, I thought it was over, so I didn't send this link. But, since it's not quite, here's a link to several others that might interest some... http://user-experience.org/uefiles/breadcrumbs/ Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Dec 6, 2004, at 3:34 PM, Ben Curtis wrote: Mordechai, I too enjoy splitting hairs. I hope no one objects to my chiming in. Breadcrumbs are a construct without a solid definition, from which I think much disagreement arises. Typically, they reflect the notional path to a page (the path according to where the user believes themselves to be), although often they reflect the logical path (where the file is in the directory structure) or the historical path (where the user had gone to get to where they are). Historical paths are linear. The trouble with using ordered lists for them is not so much the semantics as programming: how do you recognize the difference between a click forward, then back to abort, then forward to the place the user intended, from an honest forward-back-forward to something else? Well, those sorts of breadcrumbs I find tedious because I've already got a back button and Amazon certainly is trying to patent The Page You Made anyway. Both logical and notional paths are derived from a hierarchal tree but are themselves linear. (Non-tree hierarchies are possible, with non-parent/child cross-linking, but why confuse the discussion more?) Between the current node (the page) and the greatest ancestor node (the home page) there exists only a single path of nodes in a specific order. This lineage is, by definition, linear and ordered. This makes it a prime candidate for an ordered list; this is what ordered lists are. Many arguments in this thread used the words hierarchy and order and list to explain a problem that was really about completeness. Can an ordered list survive the removal of a member? Depends on the relationship between list items. A notional path certainly could survive such a removal; civilization does not collapse because our addresses on postal mail do not include the county even though they include the city and state. A logical path could not survive such a removal, any more than you could drive to California and enter Los Angeles before entering Los Angeles County. Does your lineage denote the next ancestor/descendant (i.e., parent/child) relationship? Or does it merely indicate an ancestor/descendant relationship? Is it notional or logical? Is it complete? These answers are about personal style and the intent of the breadcrumbs as a solution. The nature of the solution depends on your answers. However, the path is the order and not the items. -- Ben Curtis WebSciences International http://www.websciences.org/ v: (310) 478-6648 f: (310) 235-2067 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
At 06:03 PM 12/6/2004 +, you wrote: Veine K Vikberg wrote: a href=wharever.com onkeypress=window.open(this.href); return false; onclick=window.open(this.href); return false;Whatever.com/a *Don't* use onkeypress, as Mozilla browsers - and rightly so - treat a TAB as a keypress as well. Using onkeypress makes it impossible for users to TAB beyond that particular link. Onclick is, despite its name, device independent, as the vast majority of browsers (I'm actually compiling a list which I'll publish later tonight) trigger the event via the keyboard as well (in the case of a link, hitting enter will trigger the onclick) Well, my link was given for XHTML Strict, in where my solution is the only way to both make sure it is to the greatest extent accessible as well as validating the code. Let me explain a little more; The above mentioned code is the HTML 4.x target=new in a newer fashion, where the new window is launched by passing the href attribute to the window open object's method. The return false is returned from the event handler. If Java script is enabled the false returned is prohibited from being processed and the Java script event handler does it's task. Now in the event of Java script turned off, the link is a 'normal' href link, which will be carried out by the browser, and the user can visit that link, however in the same window as they were in (not opening in a new window). It's basically a catch-all scripting to be as accessible as possible. Since my prime concern with most of the web sites I build is accessibility this is the script that will work for most occations, and this code is not platform/device dependent. The reasoning is to provide onclick for mouse users and onkeypress for using a keyboard. I do this to make sure that the most users can access the pages I build (my target is supporting down to NS/IE 4.x) *IF* there was a way of completely not using Java script I would go with that, but there is no way around the issue as I have found, since the latest statistics I saw on the Java script subject was that 20-25% has it turned off in their browser, and that Flash is now ahead in usage. That maybe be all good and well, however the usage of Flash makes the accessibility issues larger (however can be solved) but few wants to pay the difference in development cost. HTH, Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru
RE: [WSG] a quick target question
At 10:59 AM 12/6/2004 -0800, you wrote: Aside, while it may be convenient to embed javascript in HTML tags by way of illustration, let me reiterate the oft-made point that doing so in practice is a mistake, for at least these two reasons: 1) User agents that don't support the scripting language or any of the functions used in the script will throw an untrappable error. Better to apply behavior to objects on the page from a safe distance whereby nothing occurs when the script is unsupported. The most common way to do this is to engage an initialization script with the window.onload event which checks specifically for support before adding behavior to objects on the page. 2) Separating content (HTML markup) from behavior (script) from style (CSS) is A Good Thing because modular software is easier to maintain, and because old, cranky, or idiosyncratic browsers can more easily be protected from components they don't support. I would therefore mark up that tag (uniquely identified so a script can find it easily) simply as: a id=unique123 href=whatever.comWhatever.com/a or: div id=unique123 a href=whatever.comWhatever.com/a /div and apply the behaviors separately from a linked script. Paul; Interesting solution you have come up with here, however, thinking validation versus functionality here, this is the same idea of a 'catch-all' handling, however, I am not sure that your script linked to this can give both on-click and on key press to the user can it? If so I would love to see an example of your code, or even better in a working page somewhere :) Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru
Re: [WSG] New Windows
Paul Novitski wrote: At 11:11 AM 12/6/04, Felix Miata wrote: Fresh meat: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20041206.html Yes, but only 605 respondents?! Yikes, that's a small sample. Nielsen's results, satisfying as they are to one allergic to commercialism, would carry more weight if the sample size were significantly greater. Perhaps someone blessed with a memory for statistical math can confirm how large a website-viewing population can be significantly sampled by just 605 respondents. Responses from 1000 people, picked out / selected at random, is calculated to give an error of +/- 3% for a larger group of more than 100 millions. If you pick responders from the same, small, group over and over again, the error will slowly rise towards a useless +/- 50%. Even worse: if you get responses from a group of followers, then it is always biased and useless. One can always question any statistical results-- no matter how big a sample. One can even use statistics to prove the reverse, if one like to. Statistics based on samples are the most used and abused form of manipulation there is. Didn't see how those responses were filtered, but if there was any serious balance (statistically speaking) then the error should be less than +/- 10%. That would make a pretty strong case the way the numbers came out, but no one need to believe it. Statistics are almost as much fun to work with as xhtml and CSS... ...you can always get the result you want. :-) Georg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
At 07:51 AM 12/7/2004 +1100, you wrote: Just use target=_blank and use my DTD which is modified to allow the target=_blank !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC XHTML 1.01 Strict http://www.neester.com/DTD/xhtml-target.dtd; One of the more resourceful ways of getting around the problem with target=new that I have seen, however since it's not endorsed by W3C to be included in Strict I think there is a reasoning for that: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_targetmodule Basically if I recall correctly, the Strict version of any HTML DTD has ever had the target attribute included (forgive me if I am wrong but I started to build in HTML 2.x and my memory of such times are fading), the only two DTD's that are allowing it is XHTML Frameset and Transitional, and if all other fails the fall back id to step back down on the DTD's. Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru
Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs
On 6/12/04 9:31 PM, Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Time to call a truce? I am unwilling to change my view as I've seen no reason to do so; in fact, I believe even more strongly now in what I'm saying that I did when this discussion began. If you want to leave it at that, I won't object (not that an objection would be worth much, anyway). OK, time to wrap this up methinks, as you seem to be getting a little testy here Mordechai (and I'm sure this issue's had more than enough air time now). By calling a truce I'm not asking you to change your mind, nor has that been my goal throughout this discussion. I need to state this plainly I think: I'm not against the use of lists for breadcrumbs, I think they're fine; I do however take issue with the notion that they are the only semantically valid approach. I too don't see any reason to change my views on this, which renders further discussion/debate kinda pointless. I respect your views on this issue Mordechai and you argue them well, and I apologise if I've antagonised you in any way, but at the end of the day it's better to 'agree to disagree' and move on to more fruitful discussions. -- Kevin Futter Webmaster, St. Bernard's College http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
Paul Novitski wrote: You can find an excellent introduction to scripting events on Peter-Paul Koch's http://www.quirksmode.org/ Another excellant resource is Unobtrusive Javascript (http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] is there a cure for this IE problem?
Seems you have added content since posting this? Can you post a link to the CSS also? Ta. On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 23:00:16 +, Steven Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At a site I'm working on (still) http://www.blog.lindenlangdon.com when I open pages in Opera or Firefox there is no problem. But when I open them in IE 6 the main content area of the page, having no content yet, is small. So you see a shortened page, the height of the left nav bar in fact. This is an extremely yuk behaviour but of course its our friend MS :) By the way have you seen the Kill Bill tee shirts out for xmas (rhetorical question)? They have a linux penguin with a sword and Kill Bill written underneath... Anyway if someone knows a work around for this it would do me no end of good. Its just like a flash of empty container before the page loads properly or something _ Searching for that dream home? Try http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au for all your property needs. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Website Designer/Developer www.nataliebuxton.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Belay the last on IE problem
I llengthened the leftnav div to below the window. IE still obviously doesn't show the main content area until it gets actual content though which seems very jerky. Is this the norm? _ SEEK: Now with over 60,000 dream jobs! Click here: http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] is there a cure for this IE problem?
Can you remove the content that is there so we can see the problem? All your pages have content, so I cannot see the problem you are describing. On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:11:31 +1100, Natalie Buxton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems you have added content since posting this? Can you post a link to the CSS also? Ta. On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 23:00:16 +, Steven Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At a site I'm working on (still) http://www.blog.lindenlangdon.com when I open pages in Opera or Firefox there is no problem. But when I open them in IE 6 the main content area of the page, having no content yet, is small. So you see a shortened page, the height of the left nav bar in fact. This is an extremely yuk behaviour but of course its our friend MS :) By the way have you seen the Kill Bill tee shirts out for xmas (rhetorical question)? They have a linux penguin with a sword and Kill Bill written underneath... Anyway if someone knows a work around for this it would do me no end of good. Its just like a flash of empty container before the page loads properly or something _ Searching for that dream home? Try http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au for all your property needs. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Website Designer/Developer www.nataliebuxton.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Website Designer/Developer www.nataliebuxton.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] is there a cure for this IE problem?
I just gave the leftnav div a height to take it below the bottom of the screen Site: http://www.blog.lindenlangdon.com CSS: http://www.blog.lindenlangdon.com/stylesheets/styles.css http://www.blog.lindenlangdon.com/stylesheets/default.css http://www.blog.lindenlangdon.com/stylesheets/links.css Thanks for looking. Am I going mad though, or is this standard behaviour from a non-standard browser that should be accepted? The jerkiness being displayed is rather offputting... Thanx _ Click here for the latest chart ringtones: http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE View
Hi list, Is there a program or browser extension you recommend that I can use to see what my pages will look like on IE on Mac. (I use Firefox generally) Or is the best test to find someone with a mac to send screen shots? Regards, Robyn -Original Message- From: info Sent: Tuesday, 7 December 2004 10:40 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs With all due respect, and this is nothing personal guys, can this type of discussion be kept off list please? It serves no purpose trying to publicly prove your point and it's a bit negative. emails like this really should be sent directly to eachother and are not really helpful to list members. all the best, Lisa -Original Message- From: Kevin Futter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs On 6/12/04 9:31 PM, Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Time to call a truce? I am unwilling to change my view as I've seen no reason to do so; in fact, I believe even more strongly now in what I'm saying that I did when this discussion began. If you want to leave it at that, I won't object (not that an objection would be worth much, anyway). OK, time to wrap this up methinks, as you seem to be getting a little testy here Mordechai (and I'm sure this issue's had more than enough air time now). By calling a truce I'm not asking you to change your mind, nor has that been my goal throughout this discussion. I need to state this plainly I think: I'm not against the use of lists for breadcrumbs, I think they're fine; I do however take issue with the notion that they are the only semantically valid approach. I too don't see any reason to change my views on this, which renders further discussion/debate kinda pointless. I respect your views on this issue Mordechai and you argue them well, and I apologise if I've antagonised you in any way, but at the end of the day it's better to 'agree to disagree' and move on to more fruitful discussions. -- Kevin Futter Webmaster, St. Bernard's College http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Check: AITP; Illowa Chapter
I'm wondering if anyone has had a chance to look over my problem: http://143.226.165.202/other/aitp Really looking forward to some help. Aaron Holbrook On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:58:48 -0600, Aaron Holbrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, first time for me to ask for you all to check a site for me, but I'm sure it won't be the last. I believe it renders fine in most browsers, except one flaw (advice would be MOST welcome): I have no clue how to get the navbar to render fully - if there is more content than navigation links (or you simply resize it smaller so that it overflows). I'd ideally like the navbar section to be a solid color all the way to the footer. Any suggestions? a href=http://143.226.165.202/other/aitp;Illowa Chapter; AITP/a I've tried using the: min-height; but it won't render correctly in IE. So, I'm stumped. Thanks a million! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
Veine K Vikberg wrote: Well, my link was given for XHTML Strict, in where my solution is the only way to both make sure it is to the greatest extent accessible as well as validating the code. Let me explain a little more; You missed my point completely: keep the onclick, but ditch the onkeypress, as it otherwise means users can't tab past your link. Onclick is triggered by the keyboard as well, so there's no need for a matching onkeypress. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] a (NOT SO) quick target question
Hey everyone, I really thought this would be a simple question. Thank you for all of the information. It's great to work with people, like you, that are more interested in putting together good information for the masses than the schlocky drivel that was the meat and potatoes of the internet yesteryear. I want our site to be as accessible as possible while still maintaining a good return on investment with usability and search engine results. I think I will maintain the target while we are xhtml 1.0 transitional and add the more appropriate coding for those browsers that understand it and to be ready for the next step to strict. Now, back to the discussion at large. Ted Drake CSA Travel Protection http://www.csatravelprotection.com -Original Message- From: Mordechai Peller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 3:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] a quick target question Paul Novitski wrote: You can find an excellent introduction to scripting events on Peter-Paul Koch's http://www.quirksmode.org/ Another excellant resource is Unobtrusive Javascript (http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site Check: AITP; Illowa Chapter
Faux Columns: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fauxcolumns/ On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 17:52:16 -0600, Aaron Holbrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm wondering if anyone has had a chance to look over my problem: http://143.226.165.202/other/aitp Really looking forward to some help. Aaron Holbrook On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:58:48 -0600, Aaron Holbrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, first time for me to ask for you all to check a site for me, but I'm sure it won't be the last. I believe it renders fine in most browsers, except one flaw (advice would be MOST welcome): I have no clue how to get the navbar to render fully - if there is more content than navigation links (or you simply resize it smaller so that it overflows). I'd ideally like the navbar section to be a solid color all the way to the footer. Any suggestions? a href=http://143.226.165.202/other/aitp;Illowa Chapter; AITP/a I've tried using the: min-height; but it won't render correctly in IE. So, I'm stumped. Thanks a million! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Website Designer/Developer www.nataliebuxton.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE View
browsercam http://www.browsercam.com/default.aspx pretty cheap and quick if you don't have a friend with a mac. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ROBYN BALL Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 10:46 AM To: wsg Subject: [WSG] IE View Hi list, Is there a program or browser extension you recommend that I can use to see what my pages will look like on IE on Mac. (I use Firefox generally) Or is the best test to find someone with a mac to send screen shots? Regards, Robyn -Original Message- From: info Sent: Tuesday, 7 December 2004 10:40 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs With all due respect, and this is nothing personal guys, can this type of discussion be kept off list please? It serves no purpose trying to publicly prove your point and it's a bit negative. emails like this really should be sent directly to eachother and are not really helpful to list members. all the best, Lisa -Original Message- From: Kevin Futter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantic Breadcrumbs On 6/12/04 9:31 PM, Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Time to call a truce? I am unwilling to change my view as I've seen no reason to do so; in fact, I believe even more strongly now in what I'm saying that I did when this discussion began. If you want to leave it at that, I won't object (not that an objection would be worth much, anyway). OK, time to wrap this up methinks, as you seem to be getting a little testy here Mordechai (and I'm sure this issue's had more than enough air time now). By calling a truce I'm not asking you to change your mind, nor has that been my goal throughout this discussion. I need to state this plainly I think: I'm not against the use of lists for breadcrumbs, I think they're fine; I do however take issue with the notion that they are the only semantically valid approach. I too don't see any reason to change my views on this, which renders further discussion/debate kinda pointless. I respect your views on this issue Mordechai and you argue them well, and I apologise if I've antagonised you in any way, but at the end of the day it's better to 'agree to disagree' and move on to more fruitful discussions. -- Kevin Futter Webmaster, St. Bernard's College http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE View
Browsercam is a great screenshot tool: http://www.browsercam.com/ Or if absolutely desperate, I can send you screenshots of Mac IE in action, but don't tell anyone :) Russ Hi list, Is there a program or browser extension you recommend that I can use to see what my pages will look like on IE on Mac. (I use Firefox generally) Or is the best test to find someone with a mac to send screen shots? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
At 11:54 PM 12/6/2004 +, you wrote: Veine K Vikberg wrote: Well, my link was given for XHTML Strict, in where my solution is the only way to both make sure it is to the greatest extent accessible as well as validating the code. Let me explain a little more; You missed my point completely: keep the onclick, but ditch the onkeypress, as it otherwise means users can't tab past your link. Onclick is triggered by the keyboard as well, so there's no need for a matching onkeypress. I know that keyboard users with Mozilla will get stuck at the link, I did not miss that point, and I think that is an issue that Mozilla needs to address shortly, since it's non compliant behavior. I am following W3C guidelines for XHTML validation, and I follow WAI Content Accessibility Guidelines 1999/05/05, Support Level: AAA ( http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ ) For the XHTML there is no need to put in redundant code, the code will validate with either the onclick or the onkeypress, or both used redundantly as my example was, and if the goal was only XHTML compliance I would agree with you to 100% on the issue of not using onkeypress for the reason above. However, the WAI is not as forgiving and this is a device-dependent attribute, where redundant input methods are required for the same element. There are five instances where WAI gives us no choice but to use redundancy: onclick with onkeypress onmouseup with onkeyup onmousedown with onkeydown onmouseover with onfocus onmouseout with onblur These event handlers responds to what the user does, weather it is key press, mouse clicks, voice activated etc. Most of these event handlers are only for eye candy, or to get a users attention, but onclick/onkeypress is a part of the functionality of the page and must be presented device independent to achieve even AA WAI standards. This is the reference to WAI standards for the above; http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WAI-WEBCONTENT-19990505/#tech-device-independent-events These are the guidelines I follow, and I have the hopes that the browser market would start to adhere to (or at least attempt to) the standards, I know .. I know... it's Utopia, but what can one do? Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru
RE: [WSG] IE View - THANKS
Thanks everyone, that works a treat :) -Original Message- From: info Sent: Tuesday, 7 December 2004 11:13 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] IE View Browsercam is a great screenshot tool: http://www.browsercam.com/ Or if absolutely desperate, I can send you screenshots of Mac IE in action, but don't tell anyone :) Russ Hi list, Is there a program or browser extension you recommend that I can use to see what my pages will look like on IE on Mac. (I use Firefox generally) Or is the best test to find someone with a mac to send screen shots? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
Veine K Vikberg wrote: and if the goal was only XHTML compliance I would agree with you to 100% on the issue of not using onkeypress for the reason above. I actually never mentioned anything about XHTML validation in my original reply, but yes. However, the WAI is not as forgiving and this is a device-dependent attribute, where redundant input methods are required for the same element. There are five instances where WAI gives us no choice but to use redundancy: I find it interesting how you refer to WAI as unforgiving and leaving you no choice. Of course, accessibility is not the rote mastery of a set of guidelines, but also involves a level of judgement. Thanks for the long and exhaustive rundown of what WAI is, what event handlers are etc...but I think you'll find that I am quite well versed in the subject matter. One thing to note: even people at the W3C agree that onclick is effectively a misnomer of what should really have been called onactivation. There *is* no device independent equivalent: onkeypress is just as device dependent, if not more, as onclick - however, onclick is de-facto triggered by a variety of devices, not just mouse buttons. Do a search around the subject of whether or not onclick is to be considered device dependent or device independent, and you'll find that modern thinking on the issue is that onclick *is* device independent. Even on the actual WAI IG list, the subject seems almost unworthy of a prolonged discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2004JanMar/0512.html These are the guidelines I follow, and I have the hopes that the browser market would start to adhere to (or at least attempt to) the standards, The standard have holes in them. For true device independence, truly independent handlers such as (fpr lack of appropriate terminology) onactivation for onkeypress, and something like onactivatortriggererd for onmousedown/keydown or onactivatorreleased for onmouseup/keyup would be needed. Currently, even some of the doubled up event triggers only seem to cover mouse and key/switch activation, and don't cover things like voice...but I digress. But I'm happy to respect that you follow the guidelines, but I must point out that it's not as cut and dry as you may think. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New Windows
John has just posted an interesting piece about this... http://westciv.typepad.com/standards/2004/11/another_way_of_.html Overall though - I avoid them at all costs. When we recently rejigged www.toyota.com.au - the #2 thing that came out of usability research was the hatred users have for the prevelance of pop-ups on the site. -- Ben Webster Conversant Studios www.conversantstudios.com.au On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 18:37:58 -0500, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: At 11:11 AM 12/6/04, Felix Miata wrote: Fresh meat: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20041206.html Yes, but only 605 respondents?! Yikes, that's a small sample. Nielsen's I bet you'd never find a random sample that size that proves the converse. results, satisfying as they are to one allergic to commercialism, would carry more weight if the sample size were significantly greater. Perhaps someone blessed with a memory for statistical math can confirm how large a website-viewing population can be significantly sampled by just 605 respondents. Sometimes a REALLY small sample is sufficient. Check out Jakob's apparent satisfaction with as little as 3-5: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20010204.html -- I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.John 14:6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New Windows
Ben, John has just posted an interesting piece about this... http://westciv.typepad.com/standards/2004/11/another_way_of_.html Actually it was Maxine :-) And it is a good little discussion of the practical issues John John Allsopp :: westciv :: http://www.westciv.com/ software, courses, resources for a standards based web :: style master blog :: http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
This may be completely off topic, but I feel I should rant to you lot as you all share my views... I've noticed quite a few kiwis on this list, and that is *awesome*! It means more standards based design and development in our fair land...or so you'd think. I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... A few months back (maybe even a year) the NZ government released web guidelines for all their websites.[3] Sure, this is meant to apply only to government sites, but i think every New Zealand web developer should read this document and try to at least adhere to some of these guidelines when building websites. So far I've seen one NZ government site[4] that bothers to adhere. (I'm sure their must be more, and I'd love see them so I can feel a little better about being a web developer in NZ.) Am i missing something? Am i over sensitive? Much love and respect, Darren http://dontcom.com ps - If I didn't love Aotearoa so much I'd move to Australia so i could work with people who actually care about web standards...(present kiwis excluded, of course) [1] http://tvnz.co.nz - Inaccessible, slow, Flash, non-standards, table based. [2] http://nzherald.co.nz - I'm speechless. This is trash and the reason i wrote this email. [3] http://www.e-government.govt.nz/web-guidelines/ - Brilliant! [4] http://www.radionz.co.nz/ - Probably one of the first to go standards based. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
At 02:28 AM 12/7/2004 +, you wrote: However, the WAI is not as forgiving and this is a device-dependent attribute, where redundant input methods are required for the same element. There are five instances where WAI gives us no choice but to use redundancy: I find it interesting how you refer to WAI as unforgiving and leaving you no choice. Of course, accessibility is not the rote mastery of a set of guidelines, but also involves a level of judgement. If you try and validate anything towards the standards at Bobby (which is the measurement my clients in the public sector uses) there is no way you can get around the redundancy, if you only do onclick it gives you an error at level 2, that is what I mean with unforgiving. (I am in the US btw, and governmental bodies here needs to see that the pages are validating with Watchfire tools) Thanks for the long and exhaustive rundown of what WAI is, what event handlers are etc...but I think you'll find that I am quite well versed in the subject matter. One thing to note: even people at the W3C agree that onclick is effectively a misnomer of what should really have been called onactivation. There *is* no device independent equivalent: onkeypress is just as device dependent, if not more, as onclick - however, onclick is de-facto triggered by a variety of devices, not just mouse buttons. Do a search around the subject of whether or not onclick is to be considered device dependent or device independent, and you'll find that modern thinking on the issue is that onclick *is* device independent. Even on the actual WAI IG list, the subject seems almost unworthy of a prolonged discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2004JanMar/0512.html Well, from what my tired brain can read, you are saying that there is no device independent equivalent, so that is why WAI validators ask for the redundancy? I couldn't agree more with the people at W3C here, that it is in fact as misnomer, but then why hasn't it been picked up by WAI I wonder? These are the guidelines I follow, and I have the hopes that the browser market would start to adhere to (or at least attempt to) the standards, The standard have holes in them. For true device independence, truly independent handlers such as (fpr lack of appropriate terminology) onactivation for onkeypress, and something like onactivatortriggererd for onmousedown/keydown or onactivatorreleased for onmouseup/keyup would be needed. Currently, even some of the doubled up event triggers only seem to cover mouse and key/switch activation, and don't cover things like voice...but I digress. Agreed that it's like a Swiss cheese at points, and pretty solid at others, however it's the best we have to work with at the present time, and as the regulations for some governmental sites here in the US are to at least fulfill WAI AA, if not AAA, I see no other choice for me to continue to use both, even though I would rather not, since the validator crave it because it's in the WAI standards. But I'm happy to respect that you follow the guidelines, but I must point out that it's not as cut and dry as you may think. No, indeed it isn't I'm afraid. If I could only convince people in decision making positions I would stop using it in a heartbeat Regards ~Veine Veine K Vikberg http://www.vikberg.net Professional Web Guru
Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
On 7 Dec 2004, at 2:19 PM, Darren Wood wrote: I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... So, jump in with irresistable proposals for redevelopment, and plan on retiring early! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
Hi Darren Just joined the list a couple of hours ago...Anyway, our main site - www.mch.govt.nz - is quite close to getting there - though not yet perfect (what is?) it generally validates and does all that stuff. We're in the process of doing a major redesign which will be very much standards-driven from concept (the current version is me trying to fix the tag soup that was there before..). I've also done some more complicated stuff on our nzhistory.net.nz site (also in desparate need of a revamp) including this mult-media monster: http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/parlt-hist/index.html . More recently, I did the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior site, which is also a .govt.nz one: http://www.nationalwarmemorial.govt.nz/unknown/index.html So don't despair too much, you are not alone! Also, while I think the Radio NZ one is ok, I think the Radio NZ International one is better: http://www.rnzi.com/index.php (though I'm not a great fan of columns that slide together with a narrowing window). Cheers Jamie Mackay Web Editor / Researcher Ministry for Culture and Heritage New Zealand -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darren Wood Sent: Tuesday, 7 December 2004 4:19 p.m. To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards?? This may be completely off topic, but I feel I should rant to you lot as you all share my views... I've noticed quite a few kiwis on this list, and that is *awesome*! It means more standards based design and development in our fair land...or so you'd think. I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... A few months back (maybe even a year) the NZ government released web guidelines for all their websites.[3] Sure, this is meant to apply only to government sites, but i think every New Zealand web developer should read this document and try to at least adhere to some of these guidelines when building websites. So far I've seen one NZ government site[4] that bothers to adhere. (I'm sure their must be more, and I'd love see them so I can feel a little better about being a web developer in NZ.) Am i missing something? Am i over sensitive? Much love and respect, Darren http://dontcom.com ps - If I didn't love Aotearoa so much I'd move to Australia so i could work with people who actually care about web standards...(present kiwis excluded, of course) [1] http://tvnz.co.nz - Inaccessible, slow, Flash, non-standards, table based. [2] http://nzherald.co.nz - I'm speechless. This is trash and the reason i wrote this email. [3] http://www.e-government.govt.nz/web-guidelines/ - Brilliant! [4] http://www.radionz.co.nz/ - Probably one of the first to go standards based. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The information contained in this email message is intended only for the addressee and is not necessarily the official view or communication of the Ministry for Culture and Heritage. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. If you have received this message in error, please email or telephone the sender immediately. ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a quick target question
Veine K Vikberg wrote: If you try and validate anything towards the standards at Bobby (which is the measurement my clients in the public sector uses) there is no way you can get around the redundancy, if you only do onclick it gives you an error at level 2, that is what I mean with unforgiving. So it's not WAI that's unforgiving, but Bobby in its miopic application of the guidelines (which are, at this stage, already quite out of date in many areas such as the one discussed here). Well, from what my tired brain can read, you are saying that there is no device independent equivalent, so that is why WAI validators ask for the redundancy? I couldn't agree more with the people at W3C here, that it is in fact as misnomer, but then why hasn't it been picked up by WAI I wonder? Because WAI are not the ones working on the (X)HTML standard. In XHTML 2.0 it will come down to the specific implementation of device independent DOM User Interface Events http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/REC-DOM-Level-2-Events-20001113/events.html (in this case, DOMActivate), so there's hope... If I could only convince people in decision making positions I would stop using it in a heartbeat Unfortunately dumb mechanical validators like Bobby (checking against outdated guidelines) have done more harm than good in this respect. I too hope that decision makers will see that accessibility is often a continuum, rather than simply a list of checkpoints that need to be fulfilled blindly (no pun intended) -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
On 07/12/2004, at 2:19 PM, Darren Wood wrote: I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... I'm guessing there's an equal percentage of Australian sites who neglect standards. I don't think it's a NZ-specific issue, and nor do I think us Aussies are particularly standards compliant. Obviously us here on the list and many more are, but for every design studio that embraces standards, there are many more who do not. David Trewern Design (dtdesign.com.au) is a high profile Australian studio that builds great looking sites for high profile companies, but even their brand new sites are based on tables and a lack of standards, yet they're getting some of the biggest and highest paying projects in Australia. I just let them do their thing, and I'll do mine. Frankly, I don't want or need them to embrace standards -- it creates a point of difference between myself and them, and the longer they build non-compliant sites, the more legacy mark-up and bloat they leave behind (possibly for people like me to clean up a few years from now). What they do doesn't directly affect me in any way, so like I said, I'll just do my thing, and they can do theirs. (I'm sure their must be more, and I'd love see them so I can feel a little better about being a web developer in NZ.) Am i missing something? Am i over sensitive? Why don't you see this as a good thing? It sounds like you one of only a handful of developers that get it... that creates a point of difference amongst your competitors, and ultimately an advantage (you can build and maintain sites faster than they can). If I were you, I'd stop complaining and get in there! --- Justin French, Indent.com.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web Application Development Graphic Design ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
Darren Wood wrote: I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... A few months back (maybe even a year) the NZ government released web guidelines for all their websites.[3] I think it's about 2 years old now. I was on the working group in 2002 to review them and I got CSS 2 in, and the W3C DOM rather than proprietary. In comparison to most overseas guidelines I like that the nz guidelines are short and that it's broken into audiences. Techies can read chapter 6 to get the gist of it. I think XHTML should have been allowed -- the reasoning at the time (as I understand it) was that there's no difference to the users between HTML 4.01 and XHTML, that XSL can output either, so it's a pointless choice. At the time I agreed that there was no real difference, but I think the reason why it should be allowed is because when software chooses a web standard they'll tend to choose XHTML 1.0, not HTML 4.01. The timeline for most government agencies is, "all new or revised content produced for existing non-Guideline compliant websites after 1 April 2004 should comply with the Guidelines as closely as possible; existing websites should become compliant with Version 2.1 of the Guidelines on the next occasion of a complete website redevelopment occurring before 1 January 2006;" I was the lead dev on http://www.work.govt.nz/ which is compliant. I'm not too happy with the graphic design of http://e.govt.nz, it's 3 years old. I did the html, and the interface is ok I guess. Is there a list of urls that should comply with the guidelines? [1] http://tvnz.co.nz - Inaccessible, slow, Flash, non-standards, table based. The sad bit is that they used a fantastic framework called Apache Cocoon (which I used for worksite.govt.nz) and yet when they released it they had multiple root tags (some of which were divs) and it ended up as tagsoup. The code looks a little better now, but it doesn't look like they're really that into web standards. Anything's better than the old tv2 site though. They're getting better :) .Matthew Cruickshank http://holloway.co.nz/
Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
Darren Wood wrote: I get _very_ depressed when i see high profile[1] new zealand sites completely drop the ball[2]... A few months back (maybe even a year) the NZ government released web guidelines for all their websites.[3] I think it's about 2 years old now. I was on the working group in 2002 to review them and I got CSS 2 in, and the W3C DOM rather than proprietary. In comparison to most overseas guidelines I like that the nz guidelines are short and that it's broken into audiences. Techies can read chapter 6 to get the gist of it. I think XHTML should have been allowed -- the reasoning at the time (as I understand it) was that there's no difference to the users between HTML 4.01 and XHTML, that XSL can output either, so it's a pointless choice. At the time I agreed that there was no real difference, but I think the reason why it should be allowed is because when software chooses a web standard they'll tend to choose XHTML 1.0, not HTML 4.01. The timeline for most government agencies is, "all new or revised content produced for existing non-Guideline compliant websites after 1 April 2004 should comply with the Guidelines as closely as possible; existing websites should become compliant with Version 2.1 of the Guidelines on the next occasion of a complete website redevelopment occurring before 1 January 2006;" I was the lead dev on http://www.work.govt.nz/ which is compliant. I'm not too happy with the graphic design of http://e.govt.nz, it's 3 years old. I did the html, and the interface is ok I guess. Is there a list of urls that should comply with the guidelines? [1] http://tvnz.co.nz - Inaccessible, slow, Flash, non-standards, table based. The sad bit is that they used a fantastic framework called Apache Cocoon (which I used for worksite.govt.nz) and yet when they released it they had multiple root tags (some of which were divs) and it ended up as tagsoup. The code looks a little better now, but it doesn't look like they're really that into web standards. Anything's better than the old tv2 site though. They're getting better :) .Matthew Cruickshank http://holloway.co.nz/
[WSG] Styling a href with CSS
I got annoyed with links not being what I expected. And started to figure a way to let people know where links on my site are going to take them by using CSS to put an icon after the hyperlink, dependant upon it's type. The results, at this stage, are here: http://wallishamilton.com/code/ext-links-example.html (validates) The CSS file: http://wallishamilton.com/code/screen.css doesn't validate, I get the error Combinator *= between selectors is not allowed in this profile or version Combinator ^= between selectors is not allowed in this profile or version Is there another way, any pointers would be appreciated. Of course the simple answer may be to simply use a different DTD. But I'm trying hard to switch to strict. Ben Hamilton. http://wallishamilton.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] markup for postal addresses?
Try address/address
style type=text/css
address { display: block; color: etc... }
/style
R :o)
- Original Message -
From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:10 PM
Subject: [WSG] markup for postal addresses?
Hi all
I'm trying to put together some markup for a postal address:
Cosmo Kramer
123 Example St
Somewhere
Country ZIP
I've thought of an unordered list ul and a definition list dl.
Does anyone have any ideas on the correct markup?
Cheers
James
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Re: [WSG] markup for postal addresses?
I think with things like this the KISS principle comes to mind... or if you prefer: Be Semantic - Not Pedantic :o) R - Original Message - From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 4:10 PM Subject: [WSG] markup for postal addresses? Hi all I'm trying to put together some markup for a postal address: Cosmo Kramer 123 Example St Somewhere Country ZIP I've thought of an unordered list ul and a definition list dl. Does anyone have any ideas on the correct markup? Cheers James ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Styling a href with CSS
a[href^=mailto:;] {
background: transparent url('path/to/aemail.gif') 100% 50% no-repeat;
padding-right: 10px;
}
div.content a[href^=http:] {
background: transparent url('path/to/aoutside.gif') 100% 50% no-repeat;
padding-right: 10px;
}
div.content a[href^=http://yourwebsite.com;],
div.content a[href^=http://www.yourwebsite.com;] {
background: inherit;
padding-right: 0px;
}
This might help?
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 15:29:35 +1000, Ben Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I got annoyed with links not being what I expected. And started to
figure a way to let people know where links on my site are going to take
them by using CSS to put an icon after the hyperlink, dependant upon
it's type.
The results, at this stage, are here:
http://wallishamilton.com/code/ext-links-example.html (validates)
The CSS file:
http://wallishamilton.com/code/screen.css
doesn't validate, I get the error
Combinator *= between selectors is not allowed in this profile or version
Combinator ^= between selectors is not allowed in this profile or version
Is there another way, any pointers would be appreciated.
Of course the simple answer may be to simply use a different DTD. But
I'm trying hard to switch to strict.
Ben Hamilton.
http://wallishamilton.com/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
--
Regards,
Amit Karmakar
http://karmakars.com
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The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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Re: [WSG] New Zealand Web Standards??
duh me. OK... I agree with you Mike =) Terrence Wood. russ - maxdesign wrote: I agree with your thinking Russ... web standards are a means to an end not the end itself. They represent a philosophy, framework or tool set. Jut to clarify, that email was sent by me on behalf of Mike Brown, who is experiencing email issues. Sorry for any confusion. Russ -- *** Are you in the Wellington area and interested in web standards? Wellington Web Standards Group inaugural meeting 9 Dec 2004. See http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event24.cfm for details *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Styling a href with CSS
I've tried what Amit has suggested, but the main problem is that I get a
CSS validation error.
Files are here:
http://wallishamilton.com/code/amit-1.html
http://wallishamilton.com/code/amit-1.css
These probably better demonstrate the vailidation issue (less
surrounding clutter).
How can I use a method similar to these, that validates?
Ben.
Amit Karmakar wrote:
a[href^=mailto:;] {
background: transparent url('path/to/aemail.gif') 100% 50% no-repeat;
padding-right: 10px;
}
div.content a[href^=http:] {
background: transparent url('path/to/aoutside.gif') 100% 50% no-repeat;
padding-right: 10px;
}
div.content a[href^=http://yourwebsite.com;],
div.content a[href^=http://www.yourwebsite.com;] {
background: inherit;
padding-right: 0px;
}
This might help?
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 15:29:35 +1000, Ben Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I got annoyed with links not being what I expected. And started to
figure a way to let people know where links on my site are going to take
them by using CSS to put an icon after the hyperlink, dependant upon
it's type.
The results, at this stage, are here:
http://wallishamilton.com/code/ext-links-example.html (validates)
The CSS file:
http://wallishamilton.com/code/screen.css
doesn't validate, I get the error
Combinator *= between selectors is not allowed in this profile or version
Combinator ^= between selectors is not allowed in this profile or version
Is there another way, any pointers would be appreciated.
Of course the simple answer may be to simply use a different DTD. But
I'm trying hard to switch to strict.
Ben Hamilton.
http://wallishamilton.com/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
--
Ben Hamilton
0410 460 333
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Styling a href with CSS
if you are using the w3c validator, try the advanced settings and validate against the css3 profile. Which is where your selector comes from, see: http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/CR-css3-selectors-2003/ Terrence Wood. Ben Hamilton wrote: The CSS file: http://wallishamilton.com/code/screen.css doesn't validate, I get the error Combinator *= between selectors is not allowed in this profile or version Combinator ^= between selectors is not allowed in this profile or version Is there another way, any pointers would be appreciated. -- *** Are you in the Wellington area and interested in web standards? Wellington Web Standards Group inaugural meeting 9 Dec 2004. See http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event24.cfm for details *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Styling a href with CSS
Terrence Wood wrote: if you are using the w3c validator, try the advanced settings and validate against the css3 profile. Which is where your selector comes from, see: http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/CR-css3-selectors-2003/ http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css3uri=http%3A//wallishamilton.com/code/amit-1.html validates fine. Thanks Terrence, simply a matter of validating against the correct CSS type, CSS3. :-) thanks. Ben. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
