Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
I think this is an interesting point. We moved to using CSS based layouts almost 2 years ago now. At first it was a struggle to get the designers to break out of using spacer GIFs and tables, 6 months in and they couldn't face going back to work on table based sites. We have found that the use of CSS layouts means we can apply designs in much less time than we were able to with table based ones. We are able to produce a better product in less time, changes to the design are much easier, clients and designers are happier :) In terms of using it as a selling point, you are right, most clients don't care (or more likely are not aware of the benefits). Perhaps you should look on it as client education as opposed to a selling point? Cheers Bruce On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 15:39, tee wrote: Hi, I'd been doing web design on the side since last year. I believe in web standards, but I am not sure about potential clients who want to pay me do the job will believe it. For us who believed in web standards, it all sounds very beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services, they want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and professional and they want it to be affordable. They simply want to know how much it will cost right, nothing behind the scene will interest them. What is the incentive for us to tell potential clients that web standards is important and how many people in this group successfully using web standards as selling point for their web design service. Do you increase your ballpark as a result? In my web design site, I do brag about web standards and that I care, but when I talk to potential clients (so far only two), I didn't even mention it; they didn't ask either even though they have visited my site. To me, web standards is something I believe in, but I do not see any benefit when approaching potential clients. tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Bruce Morrison designIT http://www.designit.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
On 4/11/05 10:39 PM tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: In my web design site, I do brag about web standards and that I care, but when I talk to potential clients (so far only two), I didn't even mention it; they didn't ask either even though they have visited my site. To me, web standards is something I believe in, but I do not see any benefit when approaching potential clients. My two accounts don't give a rat's *ss about web standards. They want their product up-front-center and they want to close sales. On one of my accounts, I've learned this the hard way. IMO, we use web standards for our convenience and efficiency - doesn't have anything to do with the clients' needs unless you have clients that somehow have a 'nut' for web standards. I don't have any currently. Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
Clients, as I'm sure you are aware, are always more than interested in dollars (or the unit of currency they prefer :) ) Why not promote the benefits of designing to standards as a way to increase the accessibility and usability of a site? The more usable and accessible a site is, the greater the chance that potential customers aren't going to look elsewhere for that all important product or service because the site didn't work properly for them or they weren't able to access the information they were after. Even if only a small number of customers become repeat customers because the site was usable and accessible for them, your clients would probably be interested in increasing their profit margins by even a small amount - ask any business manager: it's far easier and more profitable to have repeat customers than to attract new ones with advertising and marketing, assuming of course that these clients will actually market their site rather than just making it live and waiting (for a long time) for customers to just start arriving... At 03:39 PM 12/04/2005, tee wrote: Hi, I'd been doing web design on the side since last year. I believe in web standards, but I am not sure about potential clients who want to pay me do the job will believe it. For us who believed in web standards, it all sounds very beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services, they want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and professional and they want it to be affordable. They simply want to know how much it will cost right, nothing behind the scene will interest them. What is the incentive for us to tell potential clients that web standards is important and how many people in this group successfully using web standards as selling point for their web design service. Do you increase your ballpark as a result? In my web design site, I do brag about web standards and that I care, but when I talk to potential clients (so far only two), I didn't even mention it; they didn't ask either even though they have visited my site. To me, web standards is something I believe in, but I do not see any benefit when approaching potential clients. tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** = Matthew Bailey Web Developer Trainee (Co-op) Level 11, 126 Margaret Street, Brisbane, QLD 4001 Phone: (07) 3864 9450 (x9450) Mobile: 0417 595 490 http://www.its.qut.edu.au/webservices For urgent web enquires please call x4001 CRICOS No: 00213J = ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
ALA: Greg Kise - CSS Talking Points: Selling Clients on Web Standards http://www.alistapart.com/articles/csstalking/ -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
I really like Bruce Lawson. and as a bonus I found that his Zen Garden is being hosted again, by a benefactor (he had, as he puts it, a liquidity crises). http://www.tastydirt.com/zen/zengarden.htm If you haven't seen this, you gotta look! Donna Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: tee wrote: ... For us who believed in web standards, it all sounds very beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services, they want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and professional and they want it to be affordable. They simply want to know how much it will cost right, nothing behind the scene will interest them. Web standards includes many things that most clients and many web designers may easily overlook -- and someone will have to pay for later. Here are a few points that most clients may understand only too well: http://brucelawson.co.uk/index.htm#accessreasons ... it all comes down to money, doesn't it? regards Georg -- Donna Jones West End Webs http://www.westendwebs.com/ 772-0266 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
I have never come across a designer who says I'll throw the page together any way I can as a quick and dirty job. Mind you looking at some of the results from designers I'm sure that is what they have done. If you simply state that you design using web standards as one of your fundamental building blocks because of their many benefits you will come across as being professional. If it also piques the client's interest to ask what the benefits are, then you can go on to explain the many many benefits. See if you can list over 10, for both the client and yourself. Graham Cook Standards Manager - Content Integrity Data Online Telstra Technology 32/300 Latrobe St Melbourne VIC 3000 Ph- (03) 9632 8035 Fax - (03) 8600 9850 Mob - (03) 0417 876 869 Email - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Find out more about Standards : http://telstra.com.au/standards/index.cfm The information contained in this e-mail message may be CONFIDENTIAL and may also be the subject of Legal Professional Privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, interference with, disclosure or copying of this material is unauthorised and prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please reply to this email to advise of the incorrect delivery and then delete both it and your reply. Thank you. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Tuesday, 12 April 2005 3:40 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point? Hi, I'd been doing web design on the side since last year. I believe in web standards, but I am not sure about potential clients who want to pay me do the job will believe it. For us who believed in web standards, it all sounds very beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services, they want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and professional and they want it to be affordable. They simply want to know how much it will cost right, nothing behind the scene will interest them. What is the incentive for us to tell potential clients that web standards is important and how many people in this group successfully using web standards as selling point for their web design service. Do you increase your ballpark as a result? In my web design site, I do brag about web standards and that I care, but when I talk to potential clients (so far only two), I didn't even mention it; they didn't ask either even though they have visited my site. To me, web standards is something I believe in, but I do not see any benefit when approaching potential clients. tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web design presentation: advice?
On 12 Apr 2005, at 12:35 PM, info wrote: Hi all, I'm going to make a presentation to art students on an introduction to web design and would like some advice (besides how to deal with the butterfiles in the stomach). Butterfiles. I love it. Is that a code in-joke? Seriously, the other answerers have made some good points, but I think there are a couple that haven't been directly mentioned that should be: 1. Web design is liquid - or should be. A magazine reader can't make the page a different size and shape; a web surfer can. The design of a good web page needs to withstand resizing/reshaping - within practical limits. 2. The use of good coding practice (that which we refer to as 'Web Standards') to effect the separation of content and presentational styling. And this goes hand in hand with... 3. Coding in such a way as to make the web pages accessible to *all* visitors - whether visually or motor-function impaired, or simply via simpler browsing devices, like old browsers or mobile phones. This last is a tough one to sell to visual design students (I have a number of clients, photographers, whose attitude tends to be 'If they can't see my photos, why should I care?'), but it's really a courteous way to design using this medium. Throw them the old (McLuhan?) chestnut: Form Follows Function. Best of luck with your presentation! N __ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
On 12 Apr 2005, at 3:39 PM, tee wrote: What is the incentive for us to tell potential clients that web standards is important and how many people in this group successfully using web standards as selling point for their web design service. Do you increase your ballpark as a result? I find this simple question works really well to couch Standards in terms that clients can understand: 'Do you want your site to work yesterday, or tomorrow?' Guess what the answer is, 100% of the time. You can elaborate a little by explaining that Standards-based code will work on browsing devices that haven't even been invented yet - and that this will surely represent financial economy when a site doesn't have to be rebuilt for emerging technology. As far as ballpark goes, no - I find myself still charging about the same for a site of given scope, but I also find that once I've got the page templates nailed, construction (and maintenance) is far easier - and quicker. So my hourly rate is effectively increased (when working to a fixed price for a whole site), but the client doesn't know that... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
I've been meaning for some time to write an article about this for the W3C i18n site but not yet found the time. I'll have to try harder. To help, here are some brief suggestions, based on the assumptions that you are linking to translations (rather than different country sites), and have enough space on the user interface to list all alternatives. (Disclaimer: These are quickly written stream-of-consciousness notes that haven't been reviewed.) - use utf-8 as the page encoding if you can (you do Lachlan, I know) - use the name of the target language in the native language and script as the link, eg. 'French' would be written 'franais' (note, beware of different capitalisation conventions) - use a graphic if you are concerned about users not having the appropriate font/rendering capability for the language you are showing (note that these will never be translated, so the usual translatability issue about text in graphics is mute) (note also that the person who speaks the language linked to will usually have the necessary fonts etc., so this is more of a cosmetic issue)(Of course, it is slightly more time consuming to change graphics if your styling is changed.) - if you are not using utf-8 or another Unicode encoding you may need to use a graphic or numeric character references - put the links near the top of the page (and ideally to the right side, if the design allows). At least make them above the fold. - don't forget to post visible links to all language versions on all pages that have translations - since you are using text in another language, identify the language using lang/xml:lang attributes - add title and alt text *in the language of the current page* that explains that this is a link to a translated version of the page. It is likely that the language name alone is sufficient here (see the example below) - this certainly helps when adding new translations to the list, since you can look up the appropriate text rather than having to ask all the translators for additional translations of language names). - note that lang/xml:lang values reflect the language of attribute text as well as element content. For this reason you may need to nest elements as in the example below. - consider specifying styling for the foreign text - especially if this is Chinese, Japanese or Korean, where fonts may be automatically applied by the user agent (see http://www.w3.org/International/tests/results/lang-and-cjk-font ). For info on how to apply the style see http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-lang . EXAMPLE Here is an example of an English document that points to romanian and swedish translations using text: p class=noprintgt; span title=Romaniana href=/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.ro.html xml:lang=ro lang=roRomn/a/spannbsp; span title=Swedisha href=/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.sv.html xml:lang=sv lang=svsvenska/a/span/p [Those of you who are clever enough to find these pages should be aware that we are still in the process of implementing these translations and updating the page style at the same time, so you won't see what you expect in this case ;-) Note that the span is added to support the title information, since that is in English. (The html tag declares the context to be English.) Here is an example using graphics: p class=noprintgt; a href=/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.ro.htmlimg src=romanian.gif alt=Romanian title=Romanian//anbsp; a href=/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.sv.htmlimg src=swedish.gif alt=Swedish title=Swedish//a/p SHOULD I USE HREFLANG? You could, but it doesn't really seem to have any effect here (unlike in the link element). There are also some potential issues you should consider. See http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-lang.html#ri20050128.152033553 Also, it should be redundant because you should ensure that you declare the language of the target page in its html tag anyway ! OTHER IDEAS (SOME FROM WSG FOLK) - if using graphics, you could use a roll-over mechanism to reveal the name of the language of the target page in the language of the current page (rather than just the title and alt attributes). - I'm not convinced an automated gif is a good idea - especially if you have several going at the same time (too much like blink text). - It is also possible to include the name of the language of the target page in parentheses in the language of the current page - an example makes this clear, on an English page you might have: franais (French). This uses up a lot of space, however, and it could be argued that it is unnecessary. FURTHER READING See also upcoming articles on: - How to use the link element - How to deal with pull-downs, where there isn't room to list all alternatives
Re: [WSG] more on flashish stuff: SVG
On 12 Apr 2005, at 04:59, Alan Trick wrote: Hi, I'll sort of try this again, and hope the gods don't mail-bomb us :P. SVG isn't quite flash, because it's not proprietary technology, but it's not terribly accesible either, because as far as I know, mozzilla is the only browser to have any built-in support for it (adobe has an svg plugin for IE). I guess one of the biggest differences here is that SVG has a future, where as flash is bound to the world of proprietary formats. Has anyone here actually done any development with SVG? I have :) The majority of interest in SVG at the moment comes from the mobile market. SVG Tiny is a required format for all handsets sold on Vodafone (and other carriers) in Europe, as well as a bunch of other places (see svg.org for a list of handsets and links). On the desktop, SVG is supported natively in Mozilla/Firefox (if you get the right build) and in Opera 8 beta. There's also the Adobe SVG plugin which was bundled with Acrobat Reader for a period. It's been a while since it was released, but Adobe have publicly stated their commitment to SVG, and the next release in particular. Meanwhile, development on the SVG standard itself is very active. You can see the list of companies involved by looking at the author list in the SVG specification. It was interesting to see that the major use case for SVG is applications, rather than animations. This probably comes down to the fact that the most popular animation tool outputs SWF/Flash, while programmers are more comfortable (or not uncomfortable) in a more development-oriented environment. Since SVG can be text, all a generator needs is a print statement. On the client side, it's the standard Javascript/DOM environment. Unfortunately, the majority of interesting use cases for SVG are on company intranets. They choose SVG because they don't want to be locked in to the whims of a single vendor. As for accessibility, we put a huge amount of effort into this. The SVG format was designed to be accessible, and is more accessible than Flash. The problem is that access tools haven't quite harnessed the power yet (which is understandable since it's tough to make money in that area so they concentrate on the most popular format, HTML). I'll end the advertisement here. Dean -- dean jackson world wide web consortium (w3c) - http://www.w3.org/ graphics - interaction svg specification editor mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE problem
-Original Message-
Javier
Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 1:22 PM
To: List WSG
Subject: [WSG] IE problem
Hi
I used the classic two columns inside a container. Left column float to left
and the other to right side. IE 6, ignores the width size of left side and
show it bigger than expected then right side goes down. Also, right side
right margin is bigger than in Firefox.
You can see a page test in:
http://home.leyba.com.ar/test/
I've defined borders in left and right columns to allow to see the
problem...
*
The problem is in your markup.css page. If you define your containers in the
style sections, redo the links as a ul in the page, and float both left
(done for visual reasons but it works with a right float as well) it works
well.
#contizq{float:left; width:170px;}
#contder{float:left; width:365px;}
Remove the the @import statement. The page then displays as two floated
boxes. Somewhere in the markup is the problem. I'll leave it to you to
identify exactly which rule it is.
Oh you also have nav with a width of 700px in your layout.css.
drew
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] The name of THAT css/flash font
Phillips, Wendy wrote: You might mean SIFR or Scalable Inman Flash Replacement http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2004/08/sifr Wendy Phillips ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Thanks Wendy. Exatly that i was looking for. Hugs! -- att, Genau L. Júnior ___ WebDesigner/Media Developer www.meucarronovo.com.br/quemsomos.php +55 (41)342-5757 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
On April 12, 2005 4:01 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: I find this simple question works really well to couch Standards in terms that clients can understand: 'Do you want your site to work yesterday, or tomorrow?' Guess what the answer is, 100% of the time. You can elaborate a little by explaining that Standards-based code will work on browsing devices that haven't even been invented yet - and that this will surely represent financial economy when a site doesn't have to be rebuilt for emerging technology. I like this approach and it is pretty much the one I take. I should mention that Web Design is more of a hobby for me. So, I've only had a few clients of my own. But I wonder about the need to go into detail with clients about web standards. I think web standards are important to mention and if the client asks more about them you can certainly go into detail. But does your plumber or electrician go into long explanations about the standards they use when they're working for you? When I hire a professional I'm paying them to use their knowledge and expertise to choose the best standards that are right for the job, not to ask me what techniques I think they should use. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
On Apr 12, 2005, at 10:13 AM, Jonathan Bloy wrote: When I hire a professional I'm paying them to use their knowledge and expertise to choose the best standards that are right for the job, not to ask me what techniques I think they should use. Along these lines, Do we really need to tell clients, or whoever, how we make a Web page? As long as it's made correctly and degrades to a simple but still useful version for older browsers, can't we just do it the right way and be done with it? Clients never asked how many nested tables were on their pages in the old days. 99% don't know or care how we make the pages, and if they ask, we have the right answer... -- Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com -- www.browsehappy.com www.opera.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
I think working with web standards is overhyped as 'selling point'. It hardly has any selling points. For a developer it works faster (it does for me) but most clients don't give a rats ass about what makes their site work / look good. Very often they don't even care whether the site works in anything else but MSIE 6. 'It would be nice if Firefox works but it's not THAT important...' is what I often hear. I don't even know many web companies in Holland (where I live) that have strict use of web standards as a company policy. I myself do it because it saves ME time. The use xml, it renders on any device story is nonsense too. Hardly any site works well on mobile phones which are the most important kind of devices. Don't get me wrong, I love web standards. They just aren't a selling point unless you happen to encounter a client with a geeky side. Just my 5 cents... Marco -- Marco van Hylckama Vlieg - Senior Web Developer http://www.i-marco.nl/ On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Cook, Graham R wrote: I have never come across a designer who says I'll throw the page together any way I can as a quick and dirty job. Mind you looking at some of the results from designers I'm sure that is what they have done. If you simply state that you design using web standards as one of your fundamental building blocks because of their many benefits you will come across as being professional. If it also piques the client's interest to ask what the benefits are, then you can go on to explain the many many benefits. See if you can list over 10, for both the client and yourself. Graham Cook Standards Manager - Content Integrity Data Online Telstra Technology 32/300 Latrobe St Melbourne VIC 3000 Ph- (03) 9632 8035 Fax - (03) 8600 9850 Mob - (03) 0417 876 869 Email - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Find out more about Standards : http://telstra.com.au/standards/index.cfm The information contained in this e-mail message may be CONFIDENTIAL and may also be the subject of Legal Professional Privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, interference with, disclosure or copying of this material is unauthorised and prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please reply to this email to advise of the incorrect delivery and then delete both it and your reply. Thank you. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Tuesday, 12 April 2005 3:40 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point? Hi, I'd been doing web design on the side since last year. I believe in web standards, but I am not sure about potential clients who want to pay me do the job will believe it. For us who believed in web standards, it all sounds very beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services, they want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and professional and they want it to be affordable. They simply want to know how much it will cost right, nothing behind the scene will interest them. What is the incentive for us to tell potential clients that web standards is important and how many people in this group successfully using web standards as selling point for their web design service. Do you increase your ballpark as a result? In my web design site, I do brag about web standards and that I care, but when I talk to potential clients (so far only two), I didn't even mention it; they didn't ask either even though they have visited my site. To me, web standards is something I believe in, but I do not see any benefit when approaching potential clients. tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- iFriends: De i-mode chat/dating community! http://ifriends.i-questo.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
tee wrote: Hi, I'd been doing web design on the side since last year. I believe in web standards, but I am not sure about potential clients who want to pay me do the job will believe it. For us who believed in web standards, it all sounds very beautiful and convincing, but for companies who provides services, they want web sites, they want their web sites looks nice and professional and they want it to be affordable. They simply want to know how much it will cost right, nothing behind the scene will interest them. Hi, Most of your clients will place an emphasis on startup costs, ROI, and TTM when considering an investment in any aspect of their business; embracing the Internet and other forms technology is no exception to this focus. As with any other business decision, your client's primary goals are to minimize risk, protect capital, and earn a return. Some clients will be more savvy than others and may already be aware of the benefits of standards based development or at least be aware that this approach is an option they can explore further. You won't need to spend allot of time selling this type of client on the benefits of standards, but you will likely need to underline your ability to provide such services. For those clients who aren't well informed but who are concerned with long term benefits and returns, a portion of your time should be spent helping them to understand how standards based development can help them achieve their goals. You will want to address the importance of standards in your initial presentation to the client and you may also want to leave with them additional information that will help them to make a more knowledgeable decision. At the end of the day, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Many of your potential clients, informed or not, will be primarily concerned with fast and cheap exposure that fosters even the most remote possibility short-term results. If you choose to work with this type of client, you may have to step outside of your usual methods to meet their needs. What is the incentive for us to tell potential clients that web standards is important and how many people in this group successfully using web standards as selling point for their web design service. I don't necessarily try to sell my clients on standards based development. I put more effort into presenting the overall approach I take to helping them achieve their goals; part of which includes Web standards. When I speak to a client I speak to them on a level they can relate to: cost versus benefit. When I'm delivering the standards portion of my presentation, I place an emphasis on the following benefits (some of which have already been mentioned in other responses): Improved search engine ranking: Higher search engine ranking provides more exposure, which leads to more visitors and potentially higher returns. Simpler development and maintenance Simpler development and maintenance results in a lower startup cost, quicker time to market, less resource drain, and lower long-term expenditures. Faster downloading and bandwidth savings Standards based development generally requires less markup and produces smaller files. As a result, pages download and render quickly and captures the visitors attention while engaging them with more responsive interaction and a better overall user experience. In addition to improving the user experience, smaller files also require less bandwidth. Lower bandwidth usage can significantly reduce operational expenses. Improved accessibility Improved accessibility benefits long-term returns on several fronts. A site that is more accessible can reach more people, be explored by more potential customers, and facilitates a greater potential for profitability. Improved accessibility also leads to improved usability, which can lead to higher traffic, more return visitors, and increased sales. Additionally, accessibility improves search engine optimization, which also leads to more traffic, opportunities, sales, and profits. Future proofing Sites built using standards today will be less likely to break in browsers made tomorrow. Reduced future browser and browsing device (PDAs, Mobile Phones, Screen Readers), compatibility issues reduces down time, maintenance expenses, committed resources, and loss of sales. Do you increase your ballpark as a result? I don't charge more for standards based development. Why should I? Simplified development reduces the time it takes to get a project to market and minimizes the time I spend on updates and changes. Standards are a part of my overall approach to development and aren't treated as a service my clients pay extra to receive. In most cases standards development reduces the overall costs and time associated with a project from both the client's and my own perspective. To me, web standards is something I believe in, but I do not see any benefit when approaching
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
Jonathan Bloy wrote: I like this approach and it is pretty much the one I take. I should mention that Web Design is more of a hobby for me. So, I've only had a few clients of my own. But I wonder about the need to go into detail with clients about web standards. Hi, I think you have to be able to read your clients to make this decision. Some clients need or want to be heavily involved in a project, while others just want the site up and running and they don't really care how you go about doing that. I think web standards are important to mention and if the client asks more about them you can certainly go into detail. But does your plumber or electrician go into long explanations about the standards they use when they're working for you? When I hire a professional I'm paying them to use their knowledge and expertise to choose the best standards that are right for the job, not to ask me what techniques I think they should use. Plumbers and electricians, are required by law to perform services to certain standards and to work within certain safety guidelines and regulations. Not doing so could jeopardize their business and lead to potential damage claims. Because my expertise in these areas is limited to turning on a light and taking a shower, I have to rely on the *credibility* of the professional I hire. Rather than research the techniques used to install a breaker box or fix a leaky pipe, I am forced to research the professionals reputation and rates and then make a decision based on that information--the task of which standard to use has already been established by persons far more qualified than myself. Unfortunately, the Web is a little less restrictive when it comes to technique and technique can vary greatly. -- Best regards, Michael Wilson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
I find that customers do not care about the standards, they just care that the end user can use it. It's like where the bun came from to the hot dog buyer. On Apr 12, 2005 11:22 AM, Michael Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jonathan Bloy wrote: I like this approach and it is pretty much the one I take.I should mention that Web Design is more of a hobby for me.So, I've only had a few clients of my own.But I wonder about the need to go into detail with clients about web standards.Hi,I think you have to be able to read your clients to make this decision.Some clients need or want to be heavily involved in a project, whileothers just want the site up and running and they don't really care howyou go about doing that. I think web standards are important to mention and if the client asks more about them you can certainly go into detail.But does your plumber or electrician go into long explanations about the standards they use when they're working for you?When I hire a professional I'm paying them to use their knowledge and expertise to choose the best standards that are right for the job, not to ask me what techniques I think they should use.Plumbers and electricians, are required by law to perform services tocertain standards and to work within certain safety guidelines andregulations. Not doing so could jeopardize their business and lead topotential damage claims. Because my expertise in these areas is limitedto turning on a light and taking a shower, I have to rely on the*credibility* of the professional I hire. Rather than research thetechniques used to install a breaker box or fix a leaky pipe, I amforced to research the professionals reputation and rates and then makea decision based on that information--the task of which standard to usehas already been established by persons far more qualified than myself.Unfortunately, the Web is a little less restrictive when it comes totechnique and technique can vary greatly.--Best regards,Michael Wilson**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**-- Anthony TimberlakeCo-Owner of StaticHost Internet Services - http://www.statichost.co.ukHead Director at Spike Radio - http://www.spikeradio.org
[WSG] help for a good cause?
Can anyone out there help with some style sheet woes? Im relatively new to css and Im trying to refit our site to accessibility standards. The project is well under wayand well behind schedule. Im trying to launch by the end of the month. My current problem is getting the footer div to clear the right and left divs, AND to re-establish positions of items within the footer div. You can see what I mean by looking at http://www.birf.info/intranet/newbirf/trial1.html, which shows my current status, and what I need the footer to look like by viewing http://www.birf.info/intranet/newbirf/index.html, which uses a style sheet with a fixed page height. Elizabeth Debeasi Multimedia Communications Director Brain Injury Resource Foundation 1841 Montreal Road, Suite 220 Tucker, GA 30084 Phone: 678-937-1555 Cell: (615) 400-1706 Fax: (615) 833-1962 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.BIRF.info The Brain Injury Resource Foundation is an international 501(c)(3)charitable organization working with families and professionals since 1982 to provide education, advocacy and support for those affected by brain injury. Our mission is to empowerindividuals with brain injury by making available resources to improve the quality of their lives. From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 11:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org I'd feel much better having Russ incharge of a nuclear arsenal than George W. Bush, but that's just me. Thank you for taking the appropriate measures. Simon JesseyBusiness Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Personal Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Business Site: http://keystonewebsites.com/Personal Site: http://jessey.net/ - Original Message - From: russ - maxdesign To: Web Standards Group And in case you are wondering who suggested shutting down the whole mail server... You guessed it, that was me. Just don't let me near any nuclear weapons!
RE: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
unfortunately (from the developer's perspective), it's all about spin and word-usage - which manytechies tend not to be very good at. Between developers, web standards and accessibility can be called exactly that. However,with clients (or non-technical personnel), their eyes glaze over at the first syllable of anything that sounds even vaguely code-related. Standards compliance and accessibility are definitely selling points - as long as you don't call them that! Many of the advantages of standards compliance have already been covered in this discussion (quicker loading pages (usually), future-compatability, etc etc), so I won't repeat them. Christopher Townson From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony TimberlakeSent: 12 April 2005 16:36To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point? I find that customers do not care about the standards, they just care that the end user can use it. It's like where the bun came from to the hot dog buyer. On Apr 12, 2005 11:22 AM, Michael Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jonathan Bloy wrote: I like this approach and it is pretty much the one I take.I should mention that Web Design is more of a hobby for me.So, I've only had a few clients of my own.But I wonder about the need to go into detail with clients about web standards.Hi,I think you have to be able to read your clients to make this decision.Some clients need or want to be heavily involved in a project, whileothers just want the site up and running and they don't really care howyou go about doing that. I think web standards are important to mention and if the client asks more about them you can certainly go into detail.But does your plumber or electrician go into long explanations about the standards they use when they're working for you?When I hire a professional I'm paying them to use their knowledge and expertise to choose the best "standards" that are right for the job, not to ask me what techniques I think they should use.Plumbers and electricians, are required by law to perform services tocertain standards and to work within certain safety guidelines andregulations. Not doing so could jeopardize their business and lead topotential damage claims. Because my expertise in these areas is limitedto turning on a light and taking a shower, I have to rely on the*credibility* of the professional I hire. Rather than research thetechniques used to install a breaker box or fix a leaky pipe, I amforced to research the professionals reputation and rates and then makea decision based on that information--the task of which standard to usehas already been established by persons far more qualified than myself.Unfortunately, the Web is a little less restrictive when it comes to"technique" and technique can vary greatly.--Best regards,Michael Wilson**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**-- Anthony TimberlakeCo-Owner of StaticHost Internet Services - http://www.statichost.co.ukHead Director at Spike Radio - http://www.spikeradio.org DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS
Re: [WSG] web design presentation: advice?
All these point are great, but party for more experienced web designers. Tell them please not to use imageready or wysiwyg in dw for making the layout. This is the way that most of visual designers use to make web sites. The have a different view of web design, for them it's just visual designing and then some magic to make the page from the image, that can be made by an application. Try to show them that this is not the good way. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
When I hire a professional I'm paying them to use their knowledge and expertise ... Along these lines, Do we really need to tell clients, or whoever, how we make a Web page? I agree, I don't want any latin things or the precise workflow :) when going to surgery. The only thing I want to know, how is it done from the scope of myself (eg. we'll do this, therefore... and then you can ... and then that's all ok ... happily ever after... :D), the precise description is IMHO for them. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site
Hi Richard, your answers are all very enlightened to me, especially that I intend to provide bilingual web site services. -use utf-8 as the page encoding if you can (you do Lachlan, I know) However I have a bit of doubt on this though. Don't get me wrong, I am a unicode supporter and have my Chinese page set to utf-8, despite the fact that I know very well Mac' IE 5.2 (which still have significant users) has poor support of unicode Chinese - some character are missing, some got cut of. I thought I could afford to lose this audience and I am sort of still believing it. Ever since my web site launched, 3 people email me that my Chinese site, the characters looks funny on their browsers. What a luck I have, three of them are using OS 9 with their beloved IEs. One who emailed me yesterday, actually was looking for a web designer who can make Chinese website and know the language well to help her with the content (which I am), and is a recommendation from a new client I recently got. The first sentence in her email is: How can I be sure that you did know to make Chinese website if you site is not showing up properly on my browser? I of course have a answer for her that I can have the site set to gb or big5, but to unknown audiences, you can't suggest them to switch to NN or FF, not to mention that OS 9 user has limited choice when it comes to browser. I personally know 5 people that uses Mac, their OS are 8.6 to 9.2, two of them actually have the first flat panel iMac that shipped with OS X but 9.2 by default. They did not know they can turn the OS X on. All these people are IE 5.2 users. I believe there are many more like them out there. That was the reason I make a suggestion to Lachlan that if his client cares the Chinese audience, perhaps a gb/big 5 page is more important than 'using the utf-8 whenever you can'. tee Subject: RE: [WSG] I18n - Traditional Simplified Chinese in an English web site I've been meaning for some time to write an article about this for the W3C i18n site but not yet found the time. I'll have to try harder. To help, here are some brief suggestions, based on the assumptions that you are linking to translations (rather than different country sites), and have enough space on the user interface to list all alternatives. (Disclaimer: These are quickly written stream-of-consciousness notes that haven't been reviewed.) - use the name of the target language in the native language and script as the link, eg. 'French' would be written 'franais' (note, beware of different capitalisation conventions) -use a graphic if you are concerned about users not having the appropriate font/rendering capability for the language you are showing (note that these will never be translated, so the usual translatability issue about text in graphics is mute) (note also that the person who speaks the language linked to will usually have the necessary fonts etc., so this is more of a cosmetic issue)(Of course, it is slightly more time consuming to change graphics if your styling is changed.) -if you are not using utf-8 or another Unicode encoding you may need to use a graphic or numeric character references -put the links near the top of the page (and ideally to the right side, if the design allows). At least make them above the fold. -don't forget to post visible links to all language versions on all pages that have translations -since you are using text in another language, identify the language using lang/xml:lang attributes -add title and alt text *in the language of the current page* that explains that this is a link to a translated version of the page. It is likely that the language name alone is sufficient here (see the example below) - this certainly helps when adding new translations to the list, since you can look up the appropriate text rather than having to ask all the translators for additional translations of language names). -note that lang/xml:lang values reflect the language of attribute text as well as element content. For this reason you may need to nest elements as in the example below. -consider specifying styling for the foreign text - especially if this is Chinese, Japanese or Korean, where fonts may be automatically applied by the user agent (see http://www.w3.org/International/tests/results/lang-and-cjk-font ). For info on how to apply the style see http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-lang . EXAMPLE Here is an example of an English document that points to romanian and swedish translations using text: p class=noprintgt; span title=Romaniana href=/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.ro.html xml:lang=ro lang=roRomna/a/spannbsp; span title=Swedisha href=/International/articles/serving-xhtml/Overview.sv.html xml:lang=sv lang=svsvenska/a/span/p [Those of you who are clever enough to find these pages should be aware that we are
[WSG] Writing a business plan for the creation of a web site
This is probably off topic for this list. So please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have been asked to write a business plan for the creation of a web site and have no idea where to start. Could someone please send me some pointers or better an actual business plan so I can see the structure. Thank you. Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page: http://members.shaw.ca/dabneyadfm Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. http://www.choroideremia.org Advocates for Sight Impaired Consumers (ASIC) http://www.asic.bc.cx ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Background image in the mast head...
Over the last few days I have encountered some sites that use something similar to the code below: div id=masthead a href=http://mysite.com;img src=img/spacer.gif width=750 height=100 border=0 alt= //a /div In the code above the actual image that one wants to display on the page in the banner is delivered through the masthead style. I did test the page and it validated. I would welcome the groups advise on whether this is an acceptable procedure if one wants to move towards a standards approach. Also curious as to how this process affects accessibility? #DSS# ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
One more: http://nidahas.com/2005/04/08/marketing-web-standards/ -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Background image in the mast head...
There are so many ways to do this but I would not use a spacer gif. One way
you could go is:
HTML
div id=masthead
a href=http://mysite.com;spanMy Site/span/a
/div
CSS
#masthead { width: 750px; height: 100px; background: blah... }
#masthead a { display: block; width: 750px; height: 100px; }
#masthead span { position: absolute; left: -500px; width: 500px; }
Be warned, this was written quickly without any checking, so be careful :)
The advantage with this method is that for non-css users they will get your
text. Also, when you go to print it you can use this text version if you
need to, instead of a background image. There is also another advantage. You
can set the a element to any size - it does not need to be the entire size
of the banner - you could have it only the size of a logo within the banner
image. So, in some ways this method gives you a good degree of flexibility.
However, like all methods there are good and bad. Worth looking at a range
of them and deciding what is right for your needs.
Russ
Over the last few days I have encountered some sites that use something
similar to the code below:
div id=masthead
a href=http://mysite.com;img src=img/spacer.gif
width=750 height=100 border=0 alt= //a
/div
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Background image in the mast head...
Thank you for prompt and detailed response!
#DSS#
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of russ - maxdesign
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 4:40 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] Background image in the mast head...
There are so many ways to do this but I would not use a spacer gif. One
way you could go is:
HTML
div id=masthead
a href=http://mysite.com;spanMy Site/span/a
/div
CSS
#masthead { width: 750px; height: 100px; background: blah... } #masthead
a { display: block; width: 750px; height: 100px; } #masthead span {
position: absolute; left: -500px; width: 500px; }
Be warned, this was written quickly without any checking, so be careful
:)
The advantage with this method is that for non-css users they will get
your text. Also, when you go to print it you can use this text version
if you need to, instead of a background image. There is also another
advantage. You can set the a element to any size - it does not need to
be the entire size of the banner - you could have it only the size of a
logo within the banner image. So, in some ways this method gives you a
good degree of flexibility.
However, like all methods there are good and bad. Worth looking at a
range of them and deciding what is right for your needs.
Russ
Over the last few days I have encountered some sites that use
something similar to the code below:
div id=masthead
a href=http://mysite.com;img src=img/spacer.gif width=750
height=100 border=0 alt= //a /div
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Background image in the mast head...
Russ:
As a newbie to CSS, I do not know what this does:
#masthead span { position: absolute; left: -500px; width: 500px; }
Would appreciate your explanation - thanks!
#DSS#
-Original Message-
There are so many ways to do this but I would not use a spacer gif. One
way you could go is:
HTML
div id=masthead
a href=http://mysite.com;spanMy Site/span/a
/div
CSS
#masthead { width: 750px; height: 100px; background: blah... } #masthead
a { display: block; width: 750px; height: 100px; } #masthead span {
position: absolute; left: -500px; width: 500px; }
Be warned, this was written quickly without any checking, so be careful
:)
The advantage with this method is that for non-css users they will get
your text. Also, when you go to print it you can use this text version
if you need to, instead of a background image. There is also another
advantage. You can set the a element to any size - it does not need to
be the entire size of the banner - you could have it only the size of a
logo within the banner image. So, in some ways this method gives you a
good degree of flexibility.
However, like all methods there are good and bad. Worth looking at a
range of them and deciding what is right for your needs.
Russ
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Brisbane, last night
Last night's Brisbane meeting was a roaring success. Our new venue at the Library was great, with the only downside being no internet connection. It seems Brisbane's standard is the leading edge - an interstate visitor tells us we are far ahead of Melbourne in catering. Better pick up the slack, guys ;) Tony Aslett's late notice talk on Dynamic Styles - An Introduction to Modifying Styles with the DOM was excellent, generating much discussion. Thanks for stepping in with so little notice, Tony! (The presentaion will be up on the website presently, for those who'd like to see it, and for those who didn't take enough notes) Those Brisbanites who didn't make it - you missed a great session! Hope to see you next time :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot WSG Core member ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Background image in the mast head...
from a cursory examination it seesm to position the top left corner of a span
(500px width) 500px to the left of the edge of the visible page. (thus making
the span invisible.)
In what context is it being used?
Paul
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Devendra
Shrikhande
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:22 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Background image in the mast head...
Russ:
As a newbie to CSS, I do not know what this does:
#masthead span { position: absolute; left: -500px; width: 500px; }
Would appreciate your explanation - thanks!
#DSS#
-Original Message-
There are so many ways to do this but I would not use a spacer gif. One way you
could go is:
HTML
div id=masthead
a href=http://mysite.com;spanMy Site/span/a /div
CSS
#masthead { width: 750px; height: 100px; background: blah... } #masthead a {
display: block; width: 750px; height: 100px; } #masthead span {
position: absolute; left: -500px; width: 500px; }
Be warned, this was written quickly without any checking, so be careful
:)
The advantage with this method is that for non-css users they will get your
text. Also, when you go to print it you can use this text version if you need
to, instead of a background image. There is also another advantage. You can set
the a element to any size - it does not need to be the entire size of the
banner - you could have it only the size of a logo within the banner image. So,
in some ways this method gives you a good degree of flexibility.
However, like all methods there are good and bad. Worth looking at a range of
them and deciding what is right for your needs.
Russ
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Background image in the mast head...
OK, you have an image set in the div as a background, but you want it to
act, to all intents, like a link.
The first thing to do is make the link area the same size as the background
image. This is achieved by converting the a element to a block (display:
block) and then giving it a width and height.
div id=masthead
a href=http://mysite.com;/a
/div
a { display: block; width: 750px; height: 100px; }
Now you have a background image and a link that is the same size.
The problem is that there is nothing inside the link. It is much better to
put content in there. Even more important, this content will be beneficial -
it can be used for print css and as a description for screen readers etc.
So, the next thing to do is place the text inside the a element
div id=masthead
a href=http://mysite.com;My Site/a
/div
The problem is now that this text will sit over the top of your background
image. Probably a very undesirable outcome.
So, you want to move this link text off the page, just for modern browsers
that support css. You do not want to use display: none as this has a
negative impact on screen readers - who may not register this text at all.
A solution is to wrap a span around this link content and then position it
off the page. Some still argue that this is not a good idea. If you choose
to do this option, a good method is position:absolute.
It moves just the span wrapped content off the page - leaving the link still
in position at the same size as the backgrounds image. If you set the span
to left: -500px, it will take the span and its content 500px to the left -
off the page.
You should then set a width of 500px so that if the content grows massively
it will not poke back in the left side of the page. This could occur if a
user set their own large font sizes.
Again, this is only one method, and it has downsides as well as upsides.
Does all that make sense? Apologies if not - written in a rush between
meetings.
HTH
Russ
As a newbie to CSS, I do not know what this does:
#masthead span { position: absolute; left: -500px; width: 500px; }
Would appreciate your explanation - thanks!
#DSS#
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[WSG] Google XHTML?
For some reason this evening, every time I went to Google I was redirected to http://www.google.com/xhtml, which serves up an XHTML 1.0 Mobile DOCTYPE pointing to http://www.wapforum.org/DTD/xhtml-mobile10.dtd, and uses a MIME-type of 'application/xhtml+xml'. I'm guessing from that DOCTYPE that it's a version for cell-phone/mobile users, but has anyone else on a 'normal' browser been redirected there? Could this be testing for the rollout of a new look for Google? -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Someone who *wants* the peekaboo bug
John Horner schrieb: Not stupid at all, but I checked that and no, it's all happening via HTTP from a web server, no local paths involved. If it's not too much trouble, could we see an URL? Ingo It'd be no trouble at all, but it's all happening inside our network, so it's not possible. You'll just have to believe me, unless you're in Sydney right now and have half an hour free? Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Google XHTML?
James Bennett wrote: For some reason this evening, every time I went to Google I was redirected to http://www.google.com/xhtml, which serves up an XHTML 1.0 Mobile DOCTYPE pointing to Are you faking your user-agent? (eg, Chris Pederick's User-Agent Switcher for Firefox) I was stumped by the same thing a little while ago and found I'd forgot to change back from my phone's user-agent: Nokia6260/2.0+(3.0448.0)+SymbianOS/7.0s+Series60/2.1+Profile/MIDP-2.0+Configuration/CLDC-1.0 - Ben ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Google XHTML?
On 4/12/05, Ben Bishop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you faking your user-agent? (eg, Chris Pederick's User-Agent Switcher for Firefox) I'm not faking my user-agent, nor do I have any WML extensions. In fact, I'm on a brand-new copy of Firefox (just installed Ubuntu Linux on this computer) and haven't yet had time to do much customization, so pretty much everything is still at the default settings. -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web design presentation: advice?
thank you to all who replied with wonderful advice! The presentation I created[1] was recieved with much love and appreciation. The questions that the students asked were along the lines of: 1. What do you mean when you say that IE breaks the code? -- you know the answer to that one ;) 2. What are the top browsers I should test on? -- the biggies on Mac and PC: IE, Mozilla, Opera, Netscape, MacSafari (if possible Linux Konqueror) 3. What are the steps I need to take to get webspace/domain name? -- buy domain name; buy webspace; learn FTP; voila 4. What's bandwidth? -- every time your webpage is visited it's downloaded; monthly limit based on your host 5. Do I have to pay to get X search engine to crawl my site? -- no, it's free; pay if you want top, highlighted results or to be placed as ads 6. How can my website make money for me? -- ads; sell your artwork (big discussion on shopping carts vs. PayPal) It was so exciting to talk ab/t web standards and all that I'm passionate about. It felt great to explain why learning to code by hand is highly important before jumping into Dreamweaver (I explained that Dreamweaver has so many features and widgets that if you don't know what the code means, you won't know what it's doing, why it did A or B, etc. etc). I touched on other important topics like: SEO, Accessibility and explained that these are tools that you need to be introduced to so once your familiar with HTML and CSS what the next steps are to take. I also explained the difference between stealing code and learning from and changing code. I'm so glad I got to do this and hope that everyone can do this at least once! Thanks again for the advice and support! caio, Zulema ps: butterflies in my stomach means that my tummy gets grumbly as if I'm hungry but it's from being nervous; it's a common saying in the States. As far as it being an in-code joke? No, at least i don't think so :-p [1] Intro to web design : http://zoblue.com/web-design/ -- Z u l e m a O r t i z w e b d e s i g n e r email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] website : http://zoblue.com/ weblog : http://blog.zoblue.com/ browser : http://getfirefox.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] web design presentation: advice?
Zulema wrote: ps: butterflies in my stomach means that my tummy gets grumbly as if I'm hungry but it's from being nervous; it's a common saying in the States. As far as it being an in-code joke? No, at least i don't think so :-p Nick was referring to you use of 'butterfiles'. Butterflies is also a common phrase in Aus. Glad to hear the presentation went over well, I was keen to hear what the response would be like. I wish more teachers were passionate about web standards. After almost two yrs of promoting the use of CSS for layout to a local web design teacher (without much success), an introduction to W3C standards was introduced into the curriculum, which gave me the chance to quote W3C regarding the use of tables for layout. It was well received, to the extent he emailed other teachers in the faculty, stating his previous methods of design was not the best/right way, encouraging them all to learn about the W3C standards, only one of five teachers responded (I not a web design student just a friend) I'm not saying I would be a better person for the job, but that education is extremely important, teaching these fundamental techniques right from the start deserves all the praise it can get. Regards Jason ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
