Re: [WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]
* Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-15 23:52]: Patrick Lauke wrote: Well folks, here's a crazy idea: let's start some good discussions on the principles of web standards then. We need a bit of a catalyst to get things started. Any hot topics anybody's got at the moment? With the recent departure of a member who found this forum boring I thought I'd open up a discussion on html design. First, let me explain what I mean by html design. One of the tenets of web standards design is the separation of content and presentation. The benefits of this are often explained in terms of easy site updates, the ability to change the visual design by simply updating the CSS, and improved accessibility. All good stuff, and increasingly (as we know), web sites are produced where content is on one file (html) and the presentation is in another (CSS) Another idea related to web standards is that of semantic markup, where markup is used to give the document structure - after all, html is a structural language - and the ultimate goal is to create a web that is usable by both machines (semantic web) and people. So, when I use the term html design I am talking about how a web page is marked up, not only in terms of separating presentation and content, but how the document appears without reference to the visual design. By and large html design is not something happening in practice. Documents are marked up, and sometimes even the content refers to, the visual design. Document elements (both the tag and 'information chunk' variety) are placed in the source order according to how easy they are to position in the current visual design. Arguably, we need better browsers that can make the distinction between document content, navigation, and metadata, but isn't it about time we markup document's for the content without refering to the visual design, and separate out the navigation and other stuff a bit more? I'll bite. I'm going to posit a similar question on XML-DEV. I'm working on my own blogging software. While I finish my editor interface, I'm typing out the XML by hand, making up a document format as I go along. Existing formats, like DocBook struck me as overkill, and I wanted something I copy type. For the most part, there's a one to one mapping between my markup and HTML, with one or two important distinctions. An example of this is the quote. When I quote someone on my blog I need more than formatting. I need to give credit and link. Rather than: blockquote p...virtue has never been as respectable as money./p /blockquote Thus: quote credit=Mark Twain title=Innocents Abroad permalink=http://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html; text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote A quote is rendered in my blog as so: http://engrm.com/blogometer/2005/08/05/link-positive.html Quoting is important in blogging, as you'll note in my blog posting, the person I quoted returned to comment. It's part of the social aspect of social networking. In my blogging interface, a quote editor is going to be a special widget. For blogging quoting and linking are currency. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
* Paul Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-16 00:12]: Great topic! I had some experience using xml / xslt earlier this year. I was fiddling with w3schools xslt tutorial which uses client-side xslt transformation and I finally saw what all the xml fuss was about. The content could be marked up meaningfully (according to the actual data) then xslt could lay out the content and css could style it. It was a real 'wow' moment as the xml penny finally dropped - a total separation of content and presentation, with no server-side shenanigans needed to convert the xml content. As soon as there is consistent browser support for client side xslt, we'll be able to deliver pure xml to the client and have it apply style and layout as the / browser chooses. True accessibility and universality. The web equivalent of 'Zen' ;) There are plenty of places to put XSLT. It can be on the browser, or it can be automated. You can use XSLT to cull XML documents for links, for example. Or you can separate your presentation on the server side, based on browser detection. Which is why I'm interested in creating a better abstraction of the structure of blog and wiki entries. With XML pipelines, I can produce XHTML, RSS, text, PDF, or statitical views, like links only, tables of contents, etc. There are plenty of applications for XSLT, prior to it's universal availability on the client side. In my experience it's not the content that's the problem - it's the outlying structure (header, footer, nav, branding) that gets in the way of true 'semanticity' (look Ma - I done made me up a new word!). If we had a way (no, not frames) to semantically separate the nav / branding fluff from the actual core content we would be set. Here's an issue that I have a hard time getting away from... I've cooked up an abstraction like so: page titleAlan's Blogometer/title gutter section link href=rss.2.0.xmlSyndicate (XML)/link link href=http://www.technorati.com/profile/agutier;Technorati Profile/link link href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/link /section /gutter document header titleAlan's Blogometer - Recent/title /header content deck card header titleWhat I Had For Lunch/title text2005/08/15 12:31:30/text /header content textI had a cheese sandwich. Yummy!/text /content footer link href=2005/08/15/what-i-had-for-lunch.htmlpermalink/link link href=2005/08/15/what-i-had-for-lunch.comment.cgicomment/link /footer /card /deck /content /document /page Quite abstract. No style information, merely conceptual. This isn't the markup I used to write my blog either, that's far more compact. The problem I face with this is that one generally cares about the relative position of gutter/ content. On most web pages, it's important to have navigation at a certian visibility level. A gutter is a content area, not a navigation area, I've decided. There you'll put recent entry links, Blog Ads or Ads by Google, your blog roll, your del.icio.us links, etc. But the format above is still another abstraction away from a blog entry which looks like so: blog entry anchor=what-i-had-for-lunch date=2005-08-15T12:31:30 titleWhat I Had For Lunch/title textI had a cheese sandwich. Yummy!/text /entry /blog I transform blog.xml - document.xml - blogometer/index.html I'm able to reuse XSLT along the way. Then of course, I'm here to learn more about XML/XHTML/CSS so that my final blogometer/index.html can be standards compliant, and I can have even more control over presentation. Brain dump. Toughts? -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
Paul Bennett wrote: As soon as there is consistent browser support for client side xslt, we'll be able to deliver pure xml to the client and have it apply style and layout as the / browser chooses. True accessibility and universality. The problem, though, would be that everybody will invent their own XML based markup to suit their needs, which will make it impossible for search engines to index properly (they wouldn't even know what is a link, a heading, etc) and assistive technology such as screen readers would not be able to provide any sophisticated methods of navigation. Web developers will need to agree to a certain extent to a common standard, otherwise we'll have a very fragmented set of my very own markup format which would be indistinguishable from plain, unstructured text to any programmatic tools (unless we have a method to unequivocally specify the semantics of any of our own made up formats...something like a DTD or Schema, but with added options to define what is a link, heading, etc, and their relative importance and relationship with each other). Hmm...hope that made some kind of sense...it's too early in the morning for this sort of heavy talk ;) -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]
Being a bit of an XML newbie, what's the difference between quote credit=Mark Twain title=Innocents Abroad permalink=http://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html; text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote and quote creditMark Twain/credit titleInnocents Abroad/title permalinkhttp://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html/permalink text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote aside from some extra typing, I suppose? On 16/08/05, Alan Gutierrez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-15 23:52]: Patrick Lauke wrote: Well folks, here's a crazy idea: let's start some good discussions on the principles of web standards then. We need a bit of a catalyst to get things started. Any hot topics anybody's got at the moment? With the recent departure of a member who found this forum boring I thought I'd open up a discussion on html design. First, let me explain what I mean by html design. One of the tenets of web standards design is the separation of content and presentation. The benefits of this are often explained in terms of easy site updates, the ability to change the visual design by simply updating the CSS, and improved accessibility. All good stuff, and increasingly (as we know), web sites are produced where content is on one file (html) and the presentation is in another (CSS) Another idea related to web standards is that of semantic markup, where markup is used to give the document structure - after all, html is a structural language - and the ultimate goal is to create a web that is usable by both machines (semantic web) and people. So, when I use the term html design I am talking about how a web page is marked up, not only in terms of separating presentation and content, but how the document appears without reference to the visual design. By and large html design is not something happening in practice. Documents are marked up, and sometimes even the content refers to, the visual design. Document elements (both the tag and 'information chunk' variety) are placed in the source order according to how easy they are to position in the current visual design. Arguably, we need better browsers that can make the distinction between document content, navigation, and metadata, but isn't it about time we markup document's for the content without refering to the visual design, and separate out the navigation and other stuff a bit more? I'll bite. I'm going to posit a similar question on XML-DEV. I'm working on my own blogging software. While I finish my editor interface, I'm typing out the XML by hand, making up a document format as I go along. Existing formats, like DocBook struck me as overkill, and I wanted something I copy type. For the most part, there's a one to one mapping between my markup and HTML, with one or two important distinctions. An example of this is the quote. When I quote someone on my blog I need more than formatting. I need to give credit and link. Rather than: blockquote p...virtue has never been as respectable as money./p /blockquote Thus: quote credit=Mark Twain title=Innocents Abroad permalink=http://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html; text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote A quote is rendered in my blog as so: http://engrm.com/blogometer/2005/08/05/link-positive.html Quoting is important in blogging, as you'll note in my blog posting, the person I quoted returned to comment. It's part of the social aspect of social networking. In my blogging interface, a quote editor is going to be a special widget. For blogging quoting and linking are currency. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Jason Foss http://www.almost-anything.com.au http://www.waterfallweb.net Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] North Rockhampton, Queensland, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Increase/Decrease font size functionality?
Title: Increase/Decrease font size functionality? Does anyone know any good code to implement Increase/Decrease font size functionality to web pages? Regards Jack Bennie Web Developer This message, including any attached files, is intended solely for the addressee named and may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and are not necessarily the views of WorkCover NSW.
Re: [WSG] Increase/Decrease font size functionality?
On 8/16/05 12:15 AM Bennie, Jack [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: Does anyone know any good code to implement Increase/Decrease font size functionality to web pages? Power To The People: Relative Font Sizes Bojan Mihelac http://www.alistapart.com/articles/relafont/ Here¹s a simple solution for text resizing that respects users¹ choices and also gives them an additional option for resizing. Hth Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Increase/Decrease font size functionality?
Bennie, Jack schrieb: Does anyone know any good code to implement Increase/Decrease font size functionality to web pages? you might mean a styleswitcher. Look at ALA or Google for that word. But first of all: forget it Just dont't use pixel as a font-unit and everything will be okay. With percent or em as a font-unit, every browser (even IE) can resize the font-size. You won't need a styleswitcher. The browsers have a built-in funcionality which can be used, when the page is written accordingly. -- Greetings from Germany, Jens Grochtdreis [www.grochtdreis.de] [blog.grochtdreis.de] [www.css-faq.de] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
On 8/16/05, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Bennett wrote: As soon as there is consistent browser support for client side xslt, we'll be able to deliver pure xml to the client and have it apply style and layout as the / browser chooses. True accessibility and universality. The problem, though, would be that everybody will invent their own XML based markup to suit their needs, which will make it impossible for search engines to index properly We currently use server-side transformation of xml to xhtml using xslt, with the ability to provide different output by simply parsing the xml through a different xslt. The beauty of this is that you can include xslt libraries to pretty much rewrite the most horrid html to clean standards based xhtml. The additional bonus of this is that you can rearrange the semantic layout of the html at will using nothing more than xslt. I am also not convinced that rendering xml on the client side will be an option for a while yet (not for general content anyway) as Patrick noted. Since xhtml *IS* xml anyway, and the fact that it's trivial to serve up an RSS/Atom feed, clients already have a lot of options for rendering content (ie newsreaders, switching css, disabling css etc.). As mentioned previously, DocBook seemed overkill for the content we deal with, so like everyone else, we have pretty much rolled our own xml abstraction layer. I would be very interested in any info on standardised xml 'templates' for content, as it would then allow development of an xml to standards output which would be consistant between vendors. - Adrian Lynch http://adrian.haymarket.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
The beauty of this is that you can include xslt libraries to pretty much rewrite the most horrid html to clean standards based xhtml. The additional bonus of this is that you can rearrange the semantic layout of the html at will using nothing more than xslt. Before I unsub because you all are way over my head, how do you know this? Do you just pull it out of your *ss? I guess I just don't see where this type of info is readily available and accessible without a lot of pain and reading 100s of websites. Are there textbooks that cover this stuff? Or does W3C just make it up and so there never could be a textbook? Seems crazy Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
Rick Faaberg wrote: Before I unsub because you all are way over my head, how do you know this? Do you just pull it out of your *ss? Sorry? Nice way to get an answer. I know this because I have been doing this for the last 12 months -and so have many, many others. I guess I just don't see where this type of info is readily available and accessible without a lot of pain and reading 100s of websites. The info is everywhere. w3c standards are a good start, but I found the dpawsons and zvon sites the most valuable. Are there textbooks that cover this stuff? Or does W3C just make it up and so there never could be a textbook? There are many text books, do a google search for xslt and start reading. I'd happily point you to more resources, but well, I suspect you'd just ignore it. - Adrian Lynch http://adrian.haymarket.com.au/ http://adrian.haymarket.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:33:31 -0700, Rick Faaberg wrote: Before I unsub because you all are way over my head, how do you know this? Do you just pull it out of your *ss? Don't unsub - where else will you be exposed to so much stuff you hadn't even dreamed of? :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
Rick Faaberg The beauty of this is that you can include xslt libraries to pretty much rewrite the most horrid html to clean standards based xhtml. The additional bonus of this is that you can rearrange the semantic layout of the html at will using nothing more than xslt. Before I unsub because you all are way over my head, how do you know this? Do you just pull it out of your *ss? Psst...that's part of my everyday methodology. Don't tell anyone, ok? I guess I just don't see where this type of info is readily available and accessible without a lot of pain and reading 100s of websites. Are there textbooks that cover this stuff? Or does W3C just make it up and so there never could be a textbook? I'm a bit puzzled, and I don't see what your problem is. XSLT can be used to rewrite any type of XML into anything you want. It's a general purpose way of generating whatever you want. With the right XSLT (and yes, there are tons of books, articles, etc on this subject...just do a search for XSLT !?) you can turn XHTML into RSS, HTML 4.01, Atom, plain text...anything at all. Or am I missing something fundamental in your question? Are you complaining that the W3C don't explain every single use you can put XSLT to? Patrick __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Ted Drake wrote:
Jeremy Keith recently spoke about using the class in the link to
target a javascript to add the behavior, leaving a nice, clean link.
In the case of PDFs opening in a new window, you might not even need
to add a class. You could write a function that looks for the file
extension .pdf in the href attribute and open that link in a new
window. Something like this:
function preparePDFlinks() {
if (!document.getElementsByTagName);
var lnks = document.getElementsByTagName(a);
for (var i=0; ilnks.length; i++) {
if (lnks[i].getAttribute(href).indexOf(.pdf) != -1) {
lnks[i].onclick = function() {
return !window.open(this.href);
}
}
}
}
window.onload = preparePDFlinks;
I haven't tested that: it's just an idea really.
--
Jeremy Keith
a d a c t i o
http://adactio.com/
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Re: [WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]
* Jason Foss [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-08-16 03:36]: Being a bit of an XML newbie, what's the difference between quote credit=Mark Twain title=Innocents Abroad permalink=http://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html; text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote and quote creditMark Twain/credit titleInnocents Abroad/title permalinkhttp://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html/permalink text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote aside from some extra typing, I suppose? In my case, it was a matter of avoiding extra typeing, since I'm typing out those elements in the raw blog XML which I edit by hand for now. That's all. Not a good reason. Or maybe, a good enough reason for now. If I were designing a schema for a quote, I'd probably follow your design, with one caveat. quote creditMark Twain/credit titleInnocents Abroad/title permalinkhttp://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html/permalink content text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /content /quote Since text is really a block of text, and might better be called para, except that sometimes it's not a paragraph. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
Hi, list. I am looking for a CMS system that will produce code/mark-up that follows web standards. A lot of systems spits out tables and weird tags that doesn't validate. I'm mostly interested in freeware, but if I need to buy one to get such a system then that's fine too. I have been searching the net for awhile, but I'm not sure that I will recognize the best system even if I find it. Thanks Fjellman ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Jeremy Keith wrote:
Ted Drake wrote:
Jeremy Keith recently spoke about using the class in the link to
target a javascript to add the behavior, leaving a nice, clean link.
In the case of PDFs opening in a new window, you might not even need to
add a class. You could write a function that looks for the file
extension .pdf in the href attribute and open that link in a new
window. Something like this:
function preparePDFlinks() {
if (!document.getElementsByTagName);
var lnks = document.getElementsByTagName(a);
for (var i=0; ilnks.length; i++) {
if (lnks[i].getAttribute(href).indexOf(.pdf) != -1) {
lnks[i].onclick = function() {
return !window.open(this.href);
}
}
}
}
window.onload = preparePDFlinks;
I haven't tested that: it's just an idea really.
One should consider using the native type attribute on the anchor
element as in:
a href=tps_report.pdf type=application/pdfTPS Report/a
this cause theoretical you could have a CGI/PHP/ASP/FooBar-script
generate the PDF for you.
a href=generateTpsReport.php?id=1 type=application/pdfTPS Report/a
On the main subject of this thread I am as many here seems to be not
really really sure what is best-practice. Do there exist a
'best-practice' for a thing like this? As someone pointed out already it
depends much upon the user base one have. I doubt the users of for
example computerubergeek.com would appreciate if you forced new windows.
On the other hand... A big shop whose main user group consist of
computer illiterates I agree that a new window approach is better as
many of these users expects this behaviour.
Can we make a silver bullet?
If you have members only site you could pretty easy implement user
settings like:
--- 8 -
Web application settings
Here you can control how the web application (this site, example.com)
should response to your actions when you interact (click on links etc.)
with it. Remember that these settings will only work if your browser
supports JavaScript and it´s activated.
[ ] Never ever (I mean it) open any[1] links in new windows (supercedes
all other settings).
[x] Open non web documents[2] in new window.
[x] Trust default beaviour on links.
... and so on...
--- 8 -
[1] We have a small disclaimer telling that we can´t effect external
links that come from a different domain and that are loaded inside an
iframe for example. The actual text is longer but you get it.
[2] The text 'non web documents' is a link navigating to a list that
lists(!) documents like Excel, Word, PDF etc.
Of course you could implement this even for a public site putting your
trust in cookies but you all know the impact on this.
I have recently been experimenting with a left-click context menu for
what I call 'advanced' links a.k.a. multi-choice-links (havn´t decided
what name feels best). What 'advanced' links is is left upon the
behaviour developer (JavaScript developer) to decide but the idea popped
to my head when it became clear that my standard way of defining links
to non web resources:
a href=tpd_report.pdf type=application/pdfTPS Report/a span
class=Download(a href=/download/?tpd_report.pdf
type=application/pdfdownload/a)/span
would become rather messy if I also added a 'open in new window'-link.
So now I have a new choice under 'Web application settings':
--- 8 -
[ ] Activate web application context menu on 'advanced' links[3].
--- 8 -
[3] Here again is a link leading to 'our' definition of 'advanced' links.
Conclusion is that your wab application should grow as your users grow.
Newbies to the internet and/or your site should feel comfortable and the
web app should adhere to the 'least surprise respond'-philosophy. It
should also be able to live up to the challenges that the more advanced
users set out.
Well, this is only my ideas on the subject =)
Live long and prosperous
/Anders
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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
I am looking for a CMS system that will produce code/mark-up that follows web standards. A lot of systems spits out tables and weird tags that doesn't validate. I'm mostly interested in freeware, but if I need to buy one to get such a system then that's fine too. I have been searching the net for awhile, but I'm not sure that I will recognize the best system even if I find it. What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site, large enterprise...? h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
Textpattern is very flexible and it's perfectly possible to use it for an entire website. http://www.textpattern.com Clive Walker CVW Web Design http://www.cvwdesign.co.uk/ - Original Message - From: morten fjellman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:03 PM Subject: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system Hi, list. I am looking for a CMS system that will produce code/mark-up that follows web standards. A lot of systems spits out tables and weird tags that doesn't validate. I'm mostly interested in freeware, but if I need to buy one to get such a system then that's fine too. I have been searching the net for awhile, but I'm not sure that I will recognize the best system even if I find it. Thanks Fjellman ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system [CLOSED]
There is a CMS list for this discussion. Please log into the WSG site and add it to your lists in your login details. Peter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site, large enterprise...? The system will be used for all kinds of sites, but mostly for small/medium businesses. Most of my clients want to update their site themselves, but I don't want to give them the oppurtunity of messing up my code/mark-up. So first and formost the system need to spit out divs instead of tables, and the text-editor needs to be xhtml-complient. Thanks Fjellman On 8/16/05, heretic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am looking for a CMS system that will produce code/mark-up that follows web standards. A lot of systems spits out tables and weird tags that doesn't validate. I'm mostly interested in freeware, but if I need to buy one to get such a system then that's fine too. I have been searching the net for awhile, but I'm not sure that I will recognize the best system even if I find it. What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site, large enterprise...? h -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
THREAD CLOSED Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:03:32 +0200, morten fjellman wrote: I am looking for a CMS system that will produce code/mark-up that follows web standards. Hi! This is actually off topic for this list. Due to popular demand, we have a separate list for CMS discussions. Can I suggest you log in at http://webstandardsgroup.org/ and follow the simple prompts to subscribe to the other list? Its very low traffic. Could anyone who has some advice for Morten either mail him directly, or send it to the CMS list (if you are subscribed) and cc: Morten, until he has a chance to subscribe. Please do not respond here. Thanks! warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot WSG Core Member ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]
Patrick Lauke wrote: quote credit=Mark Twain title=Innocents Abroad permalink=http://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html; text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote quote creditMark Twain/credit titleInnocents Abroad/title permalinkhttp://www.twainquotes.com/Virtue.html/permalink text...virtue has never been as respectable as money./text /quote In essence (if you agree with the thoughts in the article) if the piece of information can be seen as core content (rather than metadata) it should be an element, not an attribute. Also, consider the refactoring pain if -- when! -- you might need to increase the granularity of your data -- is: creditMark Twain/credit suddenly needs to be: credit author firstnameMark/firstname lastnameTwain/lastname /author editor firstname.../firstname ... etc. Much easier to work with elements in that case :-) YMMV! -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]
Hassan Schroeder wrote: Also, consider the refactoring pain if -- when! -- you might need to increase the granularity of your data -- is: creditMark Twain/credit suddenly needs to be: credit author firstnameMark/firstname lastnameTwain/lastname /author editor firstname.../firstname ... etc. Much easier to work with elements in that case :-) Absolutely! Attributes really only work for atomic data that you'll never want to split up any further. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] html design - best practices
hello, i've been lurking for a while and commenting occasionally, and i appreciate the change of venue. i am a designer learning about development. i have become more interested in web standards for the past year. thanks for the post about westciv (x)html class, i feel that i am ready for it now. here's my question. i have a page with text that i want highlighted. i currently have the text in atext/a and styled with css. what is the best practice, semantically, to achieve this, as strong is not what i want, because i don't want someone to get yelled at by their screen reader. i guess what i am looking to do is emphasize the text so it will stand out on the page and be treated the same by a screen reader. is this what the em tag is for? dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Hassan Schroeder wrote: Also, consider the refactoring pain if -- when! -- you might need to increase the granularity of your data -- is: creditMark Twain/credit suddenly needs to be: credit author firstnameMark/firstname lastnameTwain/lastname /author editor firstname.../firstname ... etc. Much easier to work with elements in that case :-) Absolutely! Attributes really only work for atomic data that you'll never want to split up any further. thank you guys and gals for this thread. it is putting a lot of things in perspective for me about document structure. too bad brian left, i think he would have appreciated this. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Joe Clark Sharing the Secrets of Web Accessibility One Day Workshop / 1 September 2005 / London
A little something for UK based developers (apologies for cross posting): Joe Clark Sharing the Secrets of Web Accessibility One Day Workshop / 1 September 2005 / London Joe's advice will help you overcome those tricky areas that most developers get stuck on. He'll also let you in on many of the little secrets he's picked up over the years that will help you build accessible sites more quickly and easily. The day will be full of the tips and tricks that will save you crucial time when designing a standards-compliant site for either yourself or your client. The area of accessibility is a minefield for the developer. This one day workshop will tell you what you need to know, why you need to know it and how to implement it. By the end of the session you will feel confident in saying to any client 'I can make your site accessible'. For a full breakdown of the day's content see the schedule below. This session assumes you have a working knowledge of web standards and basic familiarity with the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, published by the W3C in 1999. If you have any questions or if you prefer to pay by cheque or require an invoice, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more details see: http://www.carsonworkshops.com/accessibility-standards/clark/01SEP2005.html -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] RE: Hot Topic: HTML design
Hi, Wasn't quite articulating this prior to your reply but the PHP includes and serving the correct doctype, with PHP are true boons to smaller sites attempting semanticity. On Aug 15, 2005, at 10:25 PM, Rei Paki wrote: Paul Separating core content from other structural content was constantly bugging me until I started to use PHP includes. This works particularly well for smaller sites. The great thing about this method is the ability to place all elements (such as navigation, headers, footers, etc) in separate files away from the individual page's unique content. At the time the page is requested from the server, the elements are combined and draw the page style from the CSS file you specify. This way, you get the benefit of easy updates (as you only change one file), as well as the separation of design (CSS) and 'structural content' from the page's unique content. Unfortunately for the most part we're stuck with the limitations of HTML until the most popular browser starts being a bit more accommodating. Apologies for the previous reply. Rei Paki ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
i have a page with text that i
want highlighted. i
currently have the text in atext/a and styled
with css. what is
the best practice, semantically, to achieve this, as
strong is not
what i want, because i don't want someone to get
yelled at by their
screen reader. i guess what i am looking to do is
emphasize the text so
it will stand out on the page and be treated the
same by a screen
reader. is this what the em tag is for?
Without knowing more about the context, I think a
span tag would be appropriate. As usually, give the
tag a meaningful class name that describes the text
being highlighted and use that consistently, and then
style the tag in CSS as needed:
span class=errormsgYou have an error in your form
input./span
style
span.errormsg { color: red; }
/style
Do you have any specific examples?
-Sam
--
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
Sam Brown wrote:
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
i have a page with text that i
want highlighted. i
currently have the text in atext/a and styled
with css. what is
the best practice, semantically, to achieve this, as
strong is not
what i want, because i don't want someone to get
yelled at by their
screen reader. i guess what i am looking to do is
emphasize the text so
it will stand out on the page and be treated the
same by a screen
reader. is this what the em tag is for?
Without knowing more about the context, I think a
span tag would be appropriate. As usually, give the
tag a meaningful class name that describes the text
being highlighted and use that consistently, and then
style the tag in CSS as needed:
span class=errormsgYou have an error in your form
input./span
style
span.errormsg { color: red; }
/style
Do you have any specific examples?
-Sam
in a monologue i am listing book titles and i have them styled bold
(css) in an a tag. (i.e., nag hammadi library, the holy qur'an, the
dead sea scrolls, etc.)
does this help? i haven't put the page up, but i can if you'd like.
dwain
--
Dwain Alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.
Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
Semantic = meaning. What is the meaning of highlighting the text? If it's a design decision the use SPAN If it's a meaning decision use STRONG or EM Think of EM as a rise in pitch when reading something out to someone. Think of STRONG as slow and controlled while pointing your finger kinda speech. -Original Message- here's my question. i have a page with text that i want highlighted. i currently have the text in atext/a and styled with css. what is the best practice, semantically, to achieve this, as strong is not what i want, because i don't want someone to get yelled at by their screen reader. i guess what i am looking to do is emphasize the text so it will stand out on the page and be treated the same by a screen reader. is this what the em tag is for? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
Hi Dwain
I try to avoid using spans as much as possible. It's not that they are bad,
but that they could be avoided in many instances.
It takes me back to something that an editor once taught me. She said that I
should think twice before using the word that. It can usually be removed
and the sentence written more efficiently. I took that advice to heart and
use it the same way that I would code using spans.
Get the idea? A page full of spans is like a paragraph full of thats.
Think twice before using a span. Should this section be a header, link or a
definition list? If not, feel free to use a span. It is great for changing
small sections of inline text.
I also like to use spans creatively with CSS. a href=blah
spannbsp;/span/a. Use absolute positioning to place the span at the
top of the page, make it a block and place a background image to create a
secondary link on another part of the page (Was this from Andy Budd or
Stopdesign?)
I've also used spans h3blah spanedit/spanh3 to take the edit or
whatever text and do something different with it, such as float it to the
right. Remember, you don't need to put a class on your spans.
If you use your spans sparingly and selectively, you can just target them by
their parents:
a span, dt span, label span {font-weight:normal;}
h3 span {float:right;}
Have fun with that there tag.
Ted
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 6:46 AM
To: wsg
Subject: [WSG] html design - best practices
hello,
i've been lurking for a while and commenting occasionally, and i
appreciate the change of venue. i am a designer learning about
development. i have become more interested in web standards for the
past year. thanks for the post about westciv (x)html class, i feel that
i am ready for it now.
here's my question. i have a page with text that i want highlighted. i
currently have the text in atext/a and styled with css. what is
the best practice, semantically, to achieve this, as strong is not
what i want, because i don't want someone to get yelled at by their
screen reader. i guess what i am looking to do is emphasize the text so
it will stand out on the page and be treated the same by a screen
reader. is this what the em tag is for?
dwain
--
Dwain Alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.
Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
It's a valid point actually. DIVitis and SPANitis are rife and elements can normally be styled using inherent selectors. The fact you have the text wrapped in A means you can approach the CSS from with #container a -Original Message- Think twice before using a span ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
--- Drake, Ted C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I try to avoid using spans as much as possible. It's not that they are bad, but that they could be avoided in many instances. I agree with your comments here, Ted, I just didn't have any context to provide a more meaningful explanation. Personally, I avoid spans, I'm just not comfortable with them except in very specific instances. I'm not sure I would put these book titles in a tags unless they are actually anchoring something. If it is an anchor, then: div class=booktitles a href=scroll.htmlDead Sea Scrolls/a a href=otherbook.htmlSome other book/a /div And then styling all anchors inside booktitles would be my preferred process. Again, without knowing the situation, needs, etc., it's hard to give suggestions. When it comes down to it, Dwain, I think you need to use what you are comfortable with, that meets your needs, and meets the level of symantic meaning/value and conformity to standards that you are willing to accept. That's probably more philosophy than is actually needed... but there it is. :) -Sam -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] window.open and popup blockers
Following the opening new window philosophy thread, I'm curious to know if there are blockers out there that *kill* links that trigger popups (do not open a new window, do not call the href value either). I can understand the logic behind ignoring window.open (even in an anchor), but then I think a return false statement should be ignored as well. AFAIK, that's Opera's behaviour... Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
In the case of PDFs opening in a new window, you might not even need to add a class. You could write a function that looks for the file extension .pdf in the href attribute and open that link in a new window. Andrew Krespanis posted this link a few weeks ago http://leftjustified.net/lab/javascript-file-links/ Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
I can understand the logic behind ignoring window.open (even in an anchor), but then I think a return false statement should be ignored as well. Are you sure? There's no reason for such an action. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement
On Aug 15, 2005, at 4:15 AM, Rex Chung wrote: Anyone know what is the best practise for image replacement with rollover states for submit buttons. I tried adding onmouseover class change javascript with: 1. background image for input type=submit / but - doesnt work for safari, value attribute shows up 2. text-indent=-1000em for button type=submit submit/button but onmouseover doesnt seem to work for IE. Is there a reason you can't use an input type=image, and then swap the src value on rollover? For purposes of having readable text, make sure to add an alt attribute. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
Jan Brasna wrote: I can understand the logic behind ignoring window.open (even in an anchor), but then I think a return false statement should be ignored as well. Are you sure? There's no reason for such an action. Jan, I'm not sure I understand your question regarding what you've quoted. Do you mean there is no reason for ignoring the return false statement? Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
Sam Brown wrote: I'm not sure I would put these book titles in a tags unless they are actually anchoring something. they are not anchoring anything. strong isn't what i want and b is deprecated (?), so what is the practice to highlight a word or words? i knew that i would some how verbalize my intent. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
Do you mean there is no reason for ignoring the return false statement? Yes. I can't see any reason why a browser/plugin/firewall etc. should ignore an independent part of a JS code. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
Jan Brasna wrote: Do you mean there is no reason for ignoring the return false statement? Yes. I can't see any reason why a browser/plugin/firewall etc. should ignore an independent part of a JS code. I see one. In that particular case, such behaviour makes sure that the user still can reach the href value. IMO, it makes sense, and AFAIK, that's how Opera's blocker works. It ignores *both* statements, window.open *and* return false. That's why I didn't really see the need for testing for window.open to begin with, because in my mind a blocker that ignores window.open in an anchor should honour the href value. Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
That's why I didn't really see the need for testing for window.open to begin with, because in my mind a blocker that ignores window.open in an anchor should honour the href value. IMHO the blocker should just return negative result for window.open, nothing more. Since the construction return !window.open(this.href) seems logical to me. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
On Aug 16, 2005, at 10:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sam Brown wrote: I'm not sure I would put these book titles in a tags unless they are actually anchoring something. they are not anchoring anything. strong isn't what i want and b is deprecated (?), so what is the practice to highlight a word or words? b is not deprecated, it just has no semantic value and in the fight to get people to markup their content semantically instead of visually, b and i became clear targets. Unfortunately, this means that many people think they should use strong and em when they really should use b and i. It's similar to the people who bend over backwards in order to put tabular data in some sort of floating list construct, just because they think that CSS-styled markup should not have the table tag. From your description, it sounds like you want the b or span tag. You want book titles to be bold; there is no clear tag for a book title (although there was a thread earlier in the year advocating cite I think), so you want a tag with semantic meaning like span or b. Then, add a semantic-like class name, such as: b class=bookTitleInnocents Abroad/b Then style the class as you see fit. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
On 16/08/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see one. In that particular case, such behaviour makes sure that the user still can reach the href value. IMO, it makes sense, and AFAIK, that's how Opera's blocker works. It ignores *both* statements, window.open *and* return false. That's why I didn't really see the need for testing for window.open to begin with, because in my mind a blocker that ignores window.open in an anchor should honour the href value. I've no idea whether Opera does ignore return false statements, but it would be outrageous if it did as it completely violates ECMA-262. Ignoring whether or not it's good practice to have JavaScript statements in an inline event handler, it is legal, and each statement should be considered standalone. It's up to the programmer to add the control structures to determine which paths are followed, not a browser based on the presence of a function call. For example, suppose I decided to use the return value of window.open to determine whether or not to add a block of content within the current document for user-agents that support scripting. If it ignores the return false, it will fetch the URL against my wishes, and my alternative content for user-agents that support scripting but have popups blocked will be lost. Best regards, Gez -- _ Supplement your vitamins http://juicystudio.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
If the books are mentioned in a sentence, such as In the dead sea scrolls, someone said foo, then I agree completely with using cite. pIn citethe dead sea scrolls/cite someone said qfoo/q/p or whatever. One problem with many examples (including mine) of cite is that they always are paired with a quote, but this absolutely does not have to be the case. although there was a thread earlier in the yearadvocating cite I think
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
b is not deprecated, it just has no semantic value and in the fight to get people to markup their content semantically instead of visually, b and i became clear targets. Unfortunately, this means that many people think they should use strong and em when they really should use b and i. It's similar to the people who bend over backwards in order to put tabular data in some sort of floating list construct, just because they think that CSS-styled markup should not have the table tag. Here is a W3C Working Draft that addresses b and i: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/ The em and strong elements were designed to indicate structural emphasis that may be rendered in a variety of ways (font style changes, speech inflection changes, etc.). The b and i elements were deprecated in HTML 4.01 and XHTML because they were used to create a specific visual effect. It is not difficult to keep presentation separate from content. Using style sheets does this nicely. As for tabular data, of course it should be displayed in a table. That is what the tag is for. Using tables for page layout, however, is a different story. Using tables to design Web pages is an accessibility nightmare. Our accessibility guys give presentations to developers demonstrating the problems that arise with tables-based layout. After they have had the opportunity to listen to what a screen reader sees most of them are more then willing to change their tables-based layout to a div-based layout. We are also able to help them get the very same layout without tables. Again, style sheets do the job. Julie Romanowski State Farm Insurance Company J2EE Engagement Team phone: 309-735-5248 cell: 309-532-4027 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
Gez Lemon wrote: I've no idea whether Opera does ignore return false statements, but it would be outrageous if it did as it completely violates ECMA-262. Ignoring whether or not it's good practice to have JavaScript statements in an inline event handler, it is legal, and each statement should be considered standalone. It's up to the programmer to add the control structures to determine which paths are followed, not a browser based on the presence of a function call. Jan, Gez, I'm talking about a simple: onclick=window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false; In this particular case, if you consider normal to arbitrary ignore the window.open statement, then why do you consider outrageous to ignore return false. IMO, that's a smart way for a blocker to give control to the user over the popups without killing the links. I know Opera's blocker behaves this way, so if it violates ECMA-262 I believe it's for a good cause ;). FMI, do you actually know blockers that kill these links? Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
In this particular case, if you consider normal to arbitrary ignore the window.open statement [...] It does not ignore it! The method is fired successfully, but the environment processing it just does not open new window and tells the method to return false. It is not ignored in any way. FMI, do you actually know blockers that kill these links? Eg. older Operas. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
G'day Mates,
I've reviewed articles on A List Apart and the WSG sites, as well as, The CSS
Anthology, but I
really would like a more defintive answer pertaining to the best method for
re-sizing text.
Therefore, I thought it prudent to turn to the experts!
The following is my current set of rules for allowing visitors to zoom text:
body
{margin: 0;
padding: 0;
font-size: 76%;
background: #6A6A8F;}
#container
{width: 100%;
font: normal 1em/14pt verdana, arial, sans-serif;
text-align: justify;
background: #fff;}
Any advice regarding this important design and accessible feature is greatly
appreciated!
Respectfully submitted,
Mario S. Cisneros
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
I know there are a lot of old school designers out there (and when I
say designer I mean those people who spend their hours in photoshop
and NOT doing the markup) who still insist that font-sizes be in point
size. That is simply not practical in the web-space (as, I'm sure you
know)...generally I ignore them and their silly point sizes. I find
the best method for font resizing is using the keyword syntax, i.e.
xx-small, x-small, small, large, etc
Generally I'd set the base font to x-small/small (depending on what
the design shows) and then use em's to inc them for headers and strong
tags, etc.
body {
font: x-small/130% Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;
color: #333;
}
h1 {
font-size: 2em;
}
h2 {
fon-size: 1.8em;
}
...
...
HTH
D
On 8/17/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G'day Mates,
I've reviewed articles on A List Apart and the WSG sites, as well as, The CSS
Anthology, but I
really would like a more defintive answer pertaining to the best method for
re-sizing text.
Therefore, I thought it prudent to turn to the experts!
The following is my current set of rules for allowing visitors to zoom text:
body
{margin: 0;
padding: 0;
font-size: 76%;
background: #6A6A8F;}
#container
{width: 100%;
font: normal 1em/14pt verdana, arial, sans-serif;
text-align: justify;
background: #fff;}
Any advice regarding this important design and accessible feature is greatly
appreciated!
Respectfully submitted,
Mario S. Cisneros
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
We are in the middle of redesigning our company's website and after using pt
for so long ems have been challenging to get used to. I have declared body
{font-size: 1em;} and have adjusted from there (i.e. sidenav {font-size:
0.80em;}.Can you explain what the slash in your example is (body {font:
x-small/130% Veranda, Arial, san-serif;}).Is this a browser hack?
Thanks,
Janelle
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Darren Wood
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:55 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
I know there are a lot of old school designers out there (and when I say
designer I mean those people who spend their hours in photoshop and NOT
doing the markup) who still insist that font-sizes be in point size. That
is simply not practical in the web-space (as, I'm sure you know)...generally
I ignore them and their silly point sizes. I find the best method for font
resizing is using the keyword syntax, i.e.
xx-small, x-small, small, large, etc
Generally I'd set the base font to x-small/small (depending on what the
design shows) and then use em's to inc them for headers and strong tags,
etc.
body {
font: x-small/130% Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;
color: #333;
}
h1 {
font-size: 2em;
}
h2 {
fon-size: 1.8em;
}
...
...
HTH
D
On 8/17/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G'day Mates,
I've reviewed articles on A List Apart and the WSG sites, as well as,
The CSS Anthology, but I really would like a more defintive answer
pertaining to the best method for re-sizing text.
Therefore, I thought it prudent to turn to the experts!
The following is my current set of rules for allowing visitors to zoom
text:
body
{margin: 0;
padding: 0;
font-size: 76%;
background: #6A6A8F;}
#container
{width: 100%;
font: normal 1em/14pt verdana, arial, sans-serif;
text-align: justify;
background: #fff;}
Any advice regarding this important design and accessible feature is
greatly appreciated!
Respectfully submitted,
Mario S. Cisneros
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] attribute selectors question
Hi All I have a quick question. I don't seem to be running on all cylinders and I can't remember how to write the css that would look for a link that has .pdf in the href. A [href???.pdf]... Or am I mixing up my CSS and javascript? I need some coffee. Ted ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
Janelle Clemens wrote:
Can you explain what the slash in your example is (body {font:
x-small/130% Veranda, Arial, san-serif;}).Is this a browser hack?
130% in this case is the line height. it's short hand for:
body {
font-family: verdana, sans-serif;
font-size: x-small;
line-height: 130%;
}
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
Hi Janelle
This is CSS shorthand, it is the same as font-size:x-small;
line-height:130%; font-family...;}
Personally, I like to write out the long format while testing my pages. I
just seem to have less bugs when I don't shorten the body font styles.
Ted
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Janelle Clemens
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 2:15 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
We are in the middle of redesigning our company's website and after using pt
for so long ems have been challenging to get used to. I have declared body
{font-size: 1em;} and have adjusted from there (i.e. sidenav {font-size:
0.80em;}.Can you explain what the slash in your example is (body {font:
x-small/130% Veranda, Arial, san-serif;}).Is this a browser hack?
Thanks,
Janelle
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Darren Wood
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:55 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
I know there are a lot of old school designers out there (and when I say
designer I mean those people who spend their hours in photoshop and NOT
doing the markup) who still insist that font-sizes be in point size. That
is simply not practical in the web-space (as, I'm sure you know)...generally
I ignore them and their silly point sizes. I find the best method for font
resizing is using the keyword syntax, i.e.
xx-small, x-small, small, large, etc
Generally I'd set the base font to x-small/small (depending on what the
design shows) and then use em's to inc them for headers and strong tags,
etc.
body {
font: x-small/130% Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;
color: #333;
}
h1 {
font-size: 2em;
}
h2 {
fon-size: 1.8em;
}
...
...
HTH
D
On 8/17/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G'day Mates,
I've reviewed articles on A List Apart and the WSG sites, as well as,
The CSS Anthology, but I really would like a more defintive answer
pertaining to the best method for re-sizing text.
Therefore, I thought it prudent to turn to the experts!
The following is my current set of rules for allowing visitors to zoom
text:
body
{margin: 0;
padding: 0;
font-size: 76%;
background: #6A6A8F;}
#container
{width: 100%;
font: normal 1em/14pt verdana, arial, sans-serif;
text-align: justify;
background: #fff;}
Any advice regarding this important design and accessible feature is
greatly appreciated!
Respectfully submitted,
Mario S. Cisneros
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
On 16/08/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm talking about a simple: onclick=window.open(this.href,'myPopup'); return false; In this particular case, if you consider normal to arbitrary ignore the window.open statement, then why do you consider outrageous to ignore return false. IMO, that's a smart way for a blocker to give control to the user over the popups without killing the links. I know Opera's blocker behaves this way, so if it violates ECMA-262 I believe it's for a good cause ;). In this example, Thierry, there are two completely separate statements. Programmatically, they're not dependent on each other, and should be executed sequentially. Any structured scripting/programming language that breaks the sequence construct is broken. It's a fundamental structured programming concept; statements are executed sequentially. If logic is required, then it should be added by the programmer using selection or iteration constructs, which may then cause the execution to take different paths. I would sooner programmers coded responsibly than have a browser that started to second guess what I was trying to achieve. The example I provided earlier is a good example of where the behaviour you're describing for Opera would be incorrect. Best regards, Gez -- _ Supplement your vitamins http://juicystudio.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
Hi Janelle,
The slash in my example separates font-size from line-height.
Regards,
Mario
We are in the middle of redesigning our company's website and after using pt
for so long ems
have been challenging to get used to. I have declared body {font-size:
1em;} and have adjusted
from there (i.e. sidenav {font-size: 0.80em;}.Can you explain what the
slash in your example
is (body {font: x-small/130% Veranda, Arial, san-serif;}).Is this a
browser hack?
Thanks,
Janelle
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darren
Wood
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:55 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
I know there are a lot of old school designers out there (and when I say
designer I mean those
people who spend their hours in photoshop and NOT doing the markup) who still
insist that
font-sizes be in point size. That is simply not practical in the web-space
(as, I'm sure you
know)...generally I ignore them and their silly point sizes. I find the best
method for font
resizing is using the keyword syntax, i.e.
xx-small, x-small, small, large, etc
Generally I'd set the base font to x-small/small (depending on what the
design shows) and then
use em's to inc them for headers and strong tags, etc.
body {
font: x-small/130% Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;
color: #333;
}
h1 {
font-size: 2em;
}
h2 {
fon-size: 1.8em;
}
...
...
HTH
D
On 8/17/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G'day Mates,
I've reviewed articles on A List Apart and the WSG sites, as well as, The
CSS Anthology, but
I really would like a more defintive answer
pertaining to the best method for re-sizing text.
Therefore, I thought it prudent to turn to the experts!
The following is my current set of rules for allowing visitors to zoom
text:
body
{margin: 0;
padding: 0;
font-size: 76%;
background: #6A6A8F;}
#container
{width: 100%;
font: normal 1em/14pt verdana, arial, sans-serif;
text-align: justify;
background: #fff;}
Any advice regarding this important design and accessible feature is
greatly appreciated!
Respectfully submitted,
Mario S. Cisneros
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
Jan Brasna wrote: In this particular case, if you consider normal to arbitrary ignore the window.open statement [...] It does not ignore it! The method is fired successfully, but the environment processing it just does not open new window and tells the method to return false. It is not ignored in any way. The environment processing it just does not open new window vs. it ignores it... Is that supposed to answer the question about the *return false* statement that is ignored by the browser (Opera in this case)? FMI, do you actually know blockers that kill these links? Eg. older Operas. That'd show that they considered previous versions of their blocker as flawed, no? Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
Ahhh, thank you. Does it always have to have the slash or can you use a
space? All other css short cuts seem to use a space, is the
size/line-height short cut special?
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Brian Cummiskey
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 2:25 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
Janelle Clemens wrote:
Can you explain what the slash in your example is (body {font:
x-small/130% Veranda, Arial, san-serif;}).Is this a browser hack?
130% in this case is the line height. it's short hand for:
body {
font-family: verdana, sans-serif;
font-size: x-small;
line-height: 130%;
}
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] attribute selectors question
Hi Ted, On 16/08/05, Drake, Ted C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a quick question. I don't seem to be running on all cylinders and I can't remember how to write the css that would look for a link that has .pdf in the href. A [href???.pdf]... Only CSS3 has attribute selectors that would be able to do that: a[href$=.pdf] Best regards, Gez -- _ Supplement your vitamins http://juicystudio.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
Oh, another quick question. Is it better to use % for line-height versus
pixel?Like I said I am used to using set sizes (pt px) for everything.
This css is such a learning/breaking bad habits adventure.
:-)
Janelle
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Brian Cummiskey
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 2:25 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
Janelle Clemens wrote:
Can you explain what the slash in your example is (body {font:
x-small/130% Veranda, Arial, san-serif;}).Is this a browser hack?
130% in this case is the line height. it's short hand for:
body {
font-family: verdana, sans-serif;
font-size: x-small;
line-height: 130%;
}
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] attribute selectors question
Hi Ted, It looks good to me, but you'd have to designate each pdf accordingly: a[href=test.pdf] However, there is another attribute selector, but its a CSS3, which would work well based on your example: a[href$=pdf] Kind regards, Mario Hi All I have a quick question. I don't seem to be running on all cylinders and I can't remember how to write the css that would look for a link that has .pdf in the href. A [href???.pdf]... Or am I mixing up my CSS and javascript? I need some coffee. Ted ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
Mario,
/* use percentile on html to prevent IE from seemingly using a logrimthic increase and decrease
in font size when scaling (IE
Bug) and use 100.1% to prevent a bug in Opera, and then set your font
sizes in em's after that. Declare Body and Table Font size together to
compensate for an IE bug of Table not in heriting font info (I think) */
html {font-size:100.1%;}
body, table {font-size:1em;}
A little bit of light reading:
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BrowserBugs
http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?cid=FAF76print=true-- __Bugs are, by definition, necessary.
Just ask Microsoft!www.co.sauk.wi.us (Work)www.arionshome.com (Personal)www.freexenon.com
(Consulting)__Take Back the Web with Mozilla Fire Fox http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/Making a Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards
http://www.maccaws.org/Web Standards Projecthttp://www.webstandards.org/Web Standards Group
http://www.webstandardsgroup.org/Guild of Accessible Web Designershttp://www.gawds.org/
Re: [WSG] attribute selectors question
Drake, Ted C. wrote: Hi All I have a quick question. I don't seem to be running on all cylinders and I can't remember how to write the css that would look for a link that has .pdf in the href. A [href???.pdf]... If you use type=application/pdf in your anchor, I think you can go with: A[type=application/pdf] Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
It does not ignore it! The method is fired successfully, but the environment processing it just does not open new window and tells the method to return false. It is not ignored in any way. The environment processing it just does not open new window vs. it ignores it... Is that supposed to answer the question about the *return false* statement that is ignored by the browser (Opera in this case)? Sorry Thierry, I really don't understand you on this. As I wrote - the browser doesn't (==shouldn't) ignore anything. Fullstop. Eg. older Operas. That'd show that they considered previous versions of their blocker as flawed, no? Or it shows that they had to fix programmers' mistakes in the favor of the poor end users... -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:12:24 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in a monologue i am listing book titles and i have them styled bold (css) in an a tag. (i.e., nag hammadi library, the holy qur'an, the dead sea scrolls, etc.) Have you seen the cite tag? It sounds like it might be of use to you - http://webdesign.about.com/library/tags/bltags-cite.htm If nothing else strikes you as semantically meningful then I would fall back to a span, rather than an anchor (a tags). Personally, I only use anchors with href or name (etc) attributes, I dont use it on its own. HIH Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
We are redesigning our company website and I am in charge of creating the templates. We are moving into XHTML and pure stylesheets which has been (and is still) a really amazing learning curve. We have always had to code cross browser but with this redesign we are finally chucking Netscape 4.7 and Mac IE (yippie). Windows IE has always been our savior as far as doing what you wanted it to do but now that we are moving into pure css and tabless we have suddenly discovered the evils of Win IE. I have searched high and low to find ways around IE css issues but have recently stumbled on the underscore (underscore in front of the css tag, i.e. _height). I've also seen slash stars which I have tried to decipher but got a headache instead. We currently are using a sniffer for Win IE but I would really like to try keep the win_ie.css as minimal as possible. What good hacks are there for Win IE like the underscore where other browsers don't render. Oh, yeah, I found the star (* html, * body) one as well. That's a good one too. But it would be nice to have a full list for a one stop shop. :-) My recent headache is trying to create a column/row of cells, like what tables used to be used for, but with the display properties table, table-row, table-column, table-cell. And after seeing how beautifully they are rendered in Firefox/Mozilla/Netscape 7 I want to figure out how to force Win IE to render them too. Any suggestions? Oh yeah, I can not give set heights to the divs because the content is flexible (more or less depending on the page). Thanks, Janelle ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The following is my current set of rules for allowing visitors to zoom text:
body
{margin: 0;
padding: 0;
font-size: 76%;
background: #6A6A8F;}
#container
{width: 100%;
font: normal 1em/14pt verdana, arial, sans-serif;
text-align: justify;
background: #fff;}
Any advice regarding this important design and accessible feature is greatly
appreciated!Respectfully submitted,Mario S. Cisneros
As long as it will zoom up to 200% without breaking the layout or
overlapping itself (and not be unreadable when zoomed down) there are
may relative sizing methods that will work for you .
Typographers rarely, if ever, justify unserifed fonts with Linotype; and
for similar reasons(rivers and lakes) neither serif *nor* unserifed
fonts work well on the Web.
Some of us over the age of 40 prefer a setting something like this:
body, html {margin: 0; padding: 0; }
body { background-color: #6A6A8F; color: #000; font: 100.01%/1.3 geneva,
verdana, arial, sans-serif; }
#container { background-color: #fff; color: #000; text-align: left;
width: 100%; }
pDifferent stroke for different folks./p
Regards,
David Laakso
--
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com/
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for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
Help yourself here: http://www.dithered.com/css_filters/nonvalidating/index.php http://www.dithered.com/css_filters/css_only/index.php Or, eventually, I'd rather go with: http://www.dithered.com/css_filters/html_only/conditional_comments_ie.html -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
Gez Lemon wrote:
In this example, Thierry, there are two completely separate
statements. Programmatically, they're not dependent on each other, and
should be executed sequentially. Any structured scripting/programming
language that breaks the sequence construct is broken. It's a
fundamental structured programming concept; statements are executed
sequentially. If logic is required, then it should be added by the
programmer using selection or iteration constructs, which may then
cause the execution to take different paths. I would sooner
programmers coded responsibly than have a browser that started to
second guess what I was trying to achieve. The example I provided
earlier is a good example of where the behaviour you're describing for
Opera would be incorrect.
I understand the concept, and I don't think anybody would disagree with you.
Actually, that's why I thought Opera was a smart blocker, being able to
make a choice regarding 2 *separate* statements.
But I believe now that the reality is very different.
Jan said that the method was processed, but I start thinking that in fact
the blocker skips the whole thing as it would in the presence of a script
error.
I believe if the return false statement is ignored, it's simply because
the browser doesn't get to it, it's that simple.
I just tried:
window.open(this.href);alert('whatever');return false;
and didn't get the alert box
I think this is an important point, because as you said, it breaks the
sequence.
Best regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] window.open and popup blockers
Jan Brasna wrote: Sorry Thierry, I really don't understand you on this. As I wrote - the browser doesn't (==shouldn't) ignore anything. Fullstop. NP, see my answer to Gez. I think I know now why the return false statement is not respected. Eg. older Operas. That'd show that they considered previous versions of their blocker as flawed, no? Or it shows that they had to fix programmers' mistakes in the favor of the poor end users... I'm not sure they fix anything actually. I think everybody out there using statements past a call to window.open is in trouble... Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
And sorry for the order :) Comments should be the first choice, then CSS only (but mind the IE7...) and after all of these the nonvalidating (like underscore). -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
Janelle Clemens wrote: I have searched high and low to find ways around IE css issues but have recently stumbled on the underscore (underscore in front of the css tag, i.e. _height). I've also seen slash stars which I have tried to decipher but got a headache instead. We currently are using a sniffer for Win IE but I would really like to try keep the win_ie.css as minimal as possible. What good hacks are there for Win IE like the underscore where other browsers don't render. Oh, yeah, I found the star (* html, * body) one as well. That's a good one too. But it would be nice to have a full list for a one stop shop. I'd favor Conditional Comments over IE/Win hacks I've written something on CC: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/cc.asp Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
Bookmark http://www.positioniseverything.net/ It has saved many people from restless nights. Whenever IE is causing you to scream at the wall, visit the site and it will tell you how to fix that particular bug. Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janelle Clemens Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:10 PM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help! We are redesigning our company website and I am in charge of creating the templates. We are moving into XHTML and pure stylesheets which has been (and is still) a really amazing learning curve. We have always had to code cross browser but with this redesign we are finally chucking Netscape 4.7 and Mac IE (yippie). Windows IE has always been our savior as far as doing what you wanted it to do but now that we are moving into pure css and tabless we have suddenly discovered the evils of Win IE. I have searched high and low to find ways around IE css issues but have recently stumbled on the underscore (underscore in front of the css tag, i.e. _height). I've also seen slash stars which I have tried to decipher but got a headache instead. We currently are using a sniffer for Win IE but I would really like to try keep the win_ie.css as minimal as possible. What good hacks are there for Win IE like the underscore where other browsers don't render. Oh, yeah, I found the star (* html, * body) one as well. That's a good one too. But it would be nice to have a full list for a one stop shop. :-) My recent headache is trying to create a column/row of cells, like what tables used to be used for, but with the display properties table, table-row, table-column, table-cell. And after seeing how beautifully they are rendered in Firefox/Mozilla/Netscape 7 I want to figure out how to force Win IE to render them too. Any suggestions? Oh yeah, I can not give set heights to the divs because the content is flexible (more or less depending on the page). Thanks, Janelle ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Hot Topic: HTML design [was Reason for leaving]
From: Patrick Lauke http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-eleatt.html (not that it makes the advice any less valuable, but I love how they seem to have some unclosed bold tag there in the markup somewhere...) libIf the information should not be normalized for white space, use elements./b (XML processors normalize attributes in ways that can change the raw text of the attribute value.)b//li -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Font Size Re-sizing
Janelle Clemens wrote: Oh, another quick question. Is it better to use % for line-height versus pixel?Like I said I am used to using set sizes (pt px) for everything. This css is such a learning/breaking bad habits adventure. Actually the best answer should be neither, but due to Gecko bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=196270 , there is not always a clearly best answer. For line-height, pt px are among the clearly worst answers. Read here for what should be the best answer: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/line-height.html -- Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? Matthew 6:27 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] they are not anchoring anything. strong isn't what i want and b is deprecated (?), so what is the practice to highlight a word or words? Using boldface or italics is the usual method. These are semantically represented by the strong and em markup. Other options might be to change the colour or shade of the text, or to give it a different background colour or shade. Underlining is a bit problematic in that it runs through the descenders of letters that have them and can make reading more difficult. It is a bit ugly to my mind too, as well as being potentially confusing in a web context since links are underlined by default. As soon as you stray from em and strong you are probably going to lose the emphasis of your text for users of non-visual browsers and other non-standard devices that can't convey the changed colour or shade to the user. I can tell you are having trouble describing what you want to do and possibly why. Is it possible that you could give us an example and some context so that we can understand a bit more? -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Help with navigation
Hi The subnav in my site: http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/tog/background/introduction.html should look like this: http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/tog/navtest.html. but I cannot get it to work.. :( - and I can't figure out why.. :( Any help is much appreciated. Thanks Helen *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer Teaching Learning Development Group Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Help with navigation
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The subnav in my site: http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/tog/background/introduction.html should look like this: http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/tog/navtest.html. but I cannot get it to work. Helen, It is working nicely for me in IE6/Win and FF1.06/Win. What problems are you seeing? -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Spam: [WSG] Help with navigation
From a quick look, it appears the class name differs between the two pages From navigation page a href=introduction.html class=currenttopicIntroduction/a From page a href=introduction.html class=topicIntroduction/a Nick This email is from the Department of Consumer and Employment Protection and any information or attachments to it may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please reply mail to the sender informing them of the error and delete all copies from your computer system, including attachments and your reply email. As the information is confidential you must not disclose, copy or use it in any manner. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Help with navigation
I can't see the currenttopic i.e. introduction being highlighted.. *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer Teaching Learning Development Group Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** Peter Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org .au cc: Sent by: Subject: RE: [WSG] Help with navigation [EMAIL PROTECTED] dsgroup.org 17/08/2005 10:33 AM Please respond to wsg From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The subnav in my site: http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/tog/background/introduction.html should look like this: http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/tog/navtest.html. but I cannot get it to work. Helen, It is working nicely for me in IE6/Win and FF1.06/Win. What problems are you seeing? -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Irrelevant properties
Hi all.
How much appropriate is attaching eg. list-style to a definition for eg.
heading, when I want to set it for more elements, but avoid splitting
the definition in two?
Example:
h1, #head ul {
list-style: none;
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
position: absolute;
width: 100px;
height: 100px;
top: 10px;
left: 10px;
background: url(some.img) no-repeat;
overflow: hidden;
}
Can the list-style attached also to h1 make some confusion?
Thanks, Jan.
--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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RE: [WSG] Help with navigation
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can't see the currenttopic i.e. introduction being highlighted.. Ahhh, Now I see what you mean. You're missing the class=currenttopic from the item you want highlighted as the current position. Your example page has: lia href=introduction.html class=currenttopicIntroduction/a/li Your real page has: lia href=introduction.htmlIntroduction/a/li -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Help with navigation
On 17 Aug 2005, at 1:18 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't see the currenttopic i.e. introduction being highlighted.. remove :link or adding :link:visited from the following declaration: #navCircle a.currenttopic:link becuause when it is the current page it becomes a visited page. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Help with navigation
Thany you very much.. works now :) *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer Teaching Learning Development Group Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent by: cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] Help with navigation dsgroup.org 17/08/2005 11:06 AM Please respond to wsg On 17 Aug 2005, at 1:18 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't see the currenttopic i.e. introduction being highlighted.. remove :link or adding :link:visited from the following declaration: #navCircle a.currenttopic:link becuause when it is the current page it becomes a visited page. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Help with navigation
On 17 Aug 2005, at 1:36 PM, Terrence Wood wrote: remove :link or adding :link:visited from the following declaration: oops, I mean replace it with :visited T. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
On Aug 16, 2005, at 12:41 PM, Julie Romanowski wrote: Here is a W3C Working Draft that addresses b and i: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/ The em and strong elements were designed to indicate structural emphasis that may be rendered in a variety of ways (font style changes, speech inflection changes, etc.). The b and i elements were deprecated in HTML 4.01 and XHTML because they were used to create a specific visual effect. That's a very curious thing for the W3C to publish. I am not aware of any HTML standard in which b and i are deprecated. Can anyone cite such a declaration? They are included in XHTML 1.1 (Presentation Module) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/ abstract_modules.html#s_presentationmodule They were not deprecated in XHTML 1.1: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/changes.html#a_changes As I understand it, nothing was deprecated in XHTML 1.0; in fact, they don't define the term for possible use: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#defs HTML 4.01 didn't deprecate anything; it only clarified HTML 4.0. b and i are not deprecated in 4.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/changes.html#h-A.3.1.2 If the W3C misspoke, or if they are indeed deprecated but not listed as such in the common specs... well, it's no wonder such rumors persist! -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
On Aug 16, 2005, at 3:10 PM, Janelle Clemens wrote: My recent headache is trying to create a column/row of cells, like what tables used to be used for, but with the display properties table, table-row, table-column, table-cell. Use a table. Tables are valid HTML. You style them with CSS. When you have tabular data, using anything else is unsemantic and wrong. If you have rows and columns, then you have tabular data. Use a table. The table tag is not banned for use in XHTML+CSS sites. Using tables to lay your page out is a bad idea, but anything other than tables for tabular data is a worse idea. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Oh, and regarding hacks for IE: remember that IE7 is coming out very soon, and anything that relies on a parsing bug may behave unpredictably. Using * html will likely mean that you will apply your hack to IE7 before you even see how it does without the hack. Your best (only?) bet is the conditional comment option. Remember: Only hack the dead. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
G'day That's a very curious thing for the W3C to publish. I am not aware of any HTML standard in which b and i are deprecated. Can anyone cite such a declaration? Cant find one myself. The closest is: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#h-15./2 (which talks about some font style elements): //Although they are not all deprecated http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/conform.html#deprecated, their use is discouraged in favor of style sheets./ / /So tt,i,b,big and small are not deprecated while strike, s and u *are* officially deprecated. Either way, as standards advocates, I believe we *should* avoid these (and other) presentational elements and attributes in our (x)html, whether deprecated or not. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Irrelevant properties
Hey mate :)
Interesting question, I think this one comes down to the dev environment...
If you're the only person who will be working on this (ie: it's a
personal project) then using what you've got and adding an informative
comment would be enough.
On the other hand, if I saw this at work I would def. insist that they
change it to something like the following:
h1, #head ul {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
position: absolute;
width: 100px;
height: 100px;
top: 10px;
left: 10px;
background: url(some.img) no-repeat;
overflow: hidden;
}
#head ul { list-style: none; }
If there is any chance at all that you may want to add more UL
specific rules, I would split it up now.
While it is valid, applying innapproriate properties to elements is
habit worth avoiding :)
cheers,
Andrew.
On 8/17/05, Jan Brasna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi all.
How much appropriate is attaching eg. list-style to a definition for eg.
heading, when I want to set it for more elements, but avoid splitting
the definition in two?
Example:
h1, #head ul {
list-style: none;
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
position: absolute;
width: 100px;
height: 100px;
top: 10px;
left: 10px;
background: url(some.img) no-repeat;
overflow: hidden;
}
Can the list-style attached also to h1 make some confusion?
Thanks, Jan.
--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
--
http://leftjustified.net/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
Ben Curtis wrote: On Aug 16, 2005, at 10:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sam Brown wrote: From your description, it sounds like you want the b or span tag. You want book titles to be bold; there is no clear tag for a book title (although there was a thread earlier in the year advocating cite I think), so you want a tag with semantic meaning like span or b. Then, add a semantic-like class name, such as: b class=bookTitleInnocents Abroad/b Then style the class as you see fit. thanks ben, i think that this is the solution. although i said a list of book titles i was not meaning li list. sometimes i have trouble communicating what i mean; and i've been in the communications field since 1976. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] html design - best practices
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ben Curtis wrote: b class=bookTitleInnocents Abroad/b Then style the class as you see fit. ...i think that this is the solution. although i said a list of book titles i was not meaning li list. If it is indeed a list, why not mark it up as a list? You could give the list a class and style it to suit your requirements, it need not appear as a bulleted or numbered vertical list. -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
Thanks Ben. Unfortunately it is not for tabular data but page layout. But let me clarify that. The main template (topnav, sidenav, footer) is in a tabless format and validated. The content area will have a 2 row, 3 column layout. Each cell will contain content, like highlights or list of products, but not relate to eachother in a tabular fashion. However each cell has a bottom border that need to match up so if one cell expands in height I need the rest to expand at the same rate. Only a table can give this or display: table-cell. The table-cell would be perfect for this issue except for Win IE. So far I have it in a single table with styled cells but was wondering if there is a trick to get Win IE to render table-cell correctly or some way to do this tabless. I am uncomfortable with hacks and am trying to avoid them as much as possible. I really appreciate all the links and info on Win IE hacks that everyone has been giving but reading about how they work is not helping. I could really use an example of how to implement them. Can you give me an example of CC being used in a style sheet? Thanks, Janelle -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Curtis Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 7:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help! On Aug 16, 2005, at 3:10 PM, Janelle Clemens wrote: My recent headache is trying to create a column/row of cells, like what tables used to be used for, but with the display properties table, table-row, table-column, table-cell. Use a table. Tables are valid HTML. You style them with CSS. When you have tabular data, using anything else is unsemantic and wrong. If you have rows and columns, then you have tabular data. Use a table. The table tag is not banned for use in XHTML+CSS sites. Using tables to lay your page out is a bad idea, but anything other than tables for tabular data is a worse idea. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Oh, and regarding hacks for IE: remember that IE7 is coming out very soon, and anything that relies on a parsing bug may behave unpredictably. Using * html will likely mean that you will apply your hack to IE7 before you even see how it does without the hack. Your best (only?) bet is the conditional comment option. Remember: Only hack the dead. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
Lea de Groot wrote: On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 10:12:24 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in a monologue i am listing book titles and i have them styled bold (css) in an a tag. (i.e., nag hammadi library, the holy qur'an, the dead sea scrolls, etc.) Have you seen the cite tag? It sounds like it might be of use to you - http://webdesign.about.com/library/tags/bltags-cite.htm If nothing else strikes you as semantically meningful then I would fall back to a span, rather than an anchor (a tags). Personally, I only use anchors with href or name (etc) attributes, I dont use it on its own. HIH Lea thanks lea! that's exactly what i needed. thanks to all who responded. i want to do it with standards compliance. dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html design - best practices
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:56:39 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks to all who responded. i want to do it with standards compliance. Glad to help! An aside: Bear in mind that you can do the most awful table-based design and be 'standards-compliant'. Once you've learnt the rules and know how to validate your code, then its time to go onto the next step - making your markup accessible and semantically meaningful. Standards compliance is a tool. Accessible, meaningful pages are a goal. Sounds like you know that, but haven't quite got a complete handle on the lingo yet :) Time and work will fix that :) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!
Janelle Clemens wrote: I am uncomfortable with hacks and am trying to avoid them as much as possible. I really appreciate all the links and info on Win IE hacks that everyone has been giving but reading about how they work is not helping. I could really use an example of how to implement them. We have some hacks in use here: http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html#hack Links to the relevant descriptions of the Holly Hack, underscore hack and Conditional Comments are included, and an example of how to serve to pre-IE7 and IE7. I hope this is in keeping with the mission of the list, and nobody must leave. Ingo -- http://www.satzansatz.de/css.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
