Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Peter Ottery has agreed to be guest presenter at our next Sydney WSG meeting. He will be talking about the Age (and another soon-to-be launched site). He will go through the how he achieved full CSS as well as describing some of the layout decisions he made. Should be great stuff. http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event10.cfm Of course, notes will be put online for all non-Sydney members! Also, Sydney people should note we have decided to change our meetings from every 6 weeks to every 8 weeks. Not a big deal, but gives Peter and I a bit of breathing space between meetings. :) Russ > Peter, > > Well done on the Age website! > > There's a lot of buzz from people here in Melbourne about it, and it > has been received very well. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Yeah, taxidermy's the best option for them ... the NS4 people who have raised "your site is broken" with me upgraded to Net 7. Ooh it works. That said, I did have a user complain that the site was slow on their 2.4 kb modem the other day, truly. I thought about buying a 56k modem for them. Cheers James Peter Ottery wrote: James wrote: >> It's great to see such a large site being discussed openly on the list. agreed. feels a bit weird - but hey, we're one big happy family right? ;-) >> Other than what has been discussed, the only I thing I can see is the markup: That will be visible to your search engines... it would be better to put this behind a "help" link on the site. also agreed. to be honest we were worried about the NS4 crowd (and other similar browsers) seeing the unstyled page and hoped that this message would ease the shock and provide some useful info. what has occured is not ONE such email, (which is obviously great) so we are ripping it of shortly. thanks James :) pete * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Title: RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design James wrote: >> It's great to see such a large site being discussed openly on the list. agreed. feels a bit weird - but hey, we're one big happy family right? ;-) >> Other than what has been discussed, the only I thing I can see is the markup: That will be visible to your search engines... it would be better to put this behind a "help" link on the site. also agreed. to be honest we were worried about the NS4 crowd (and other similar browsers) seeing the unstyled page and hoped that this message would ease the shock and provide some useful info. what has occured is not ONE such email, (which is obviously great) so we are ripping it of shortly. thanks James :) pete
RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Peter, Well done on the Age website! There's a lot of buzz from people here in Melbourne about it, and it has been received very well. Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Title: RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design Hi Tim, re >> I noticed, was in the print style sheet where you've set a 600px width for #content. Shouldn't you be letting the UA set it's own margins for printing? yep, guilty as charged, in a mad rush i put that in as a quick solution (opera seemed to chop off the last word or so on the right when i didnt specify a width..?) but i'll be looking at that today to get a more scaleable solution re >> have you considered including a rule in the print stylesheet for those using CSS3 capable browsers to print the URL of links? i will now ;-) cheers for yr feedback, pete -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Lucas Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design Peter Ottery spoke the following wise words on 20/04/2004 10:27 AM EST: > hiya, > we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. > http://theage.com.au/ Peter, once again my hat goes off to the f2 team. One interesting choice , I noticed, was in the print style sheet where you've set a 600px width for #content. Shouldn't you be letting the UA set it's own margins for printing? Also, have you considered including a rule in the print stylesheet for those using CSS3 capable browsers to print the URL of links? -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Nice one It's great to see such a large site being discussed openly on the list. Other than what has been discussed, the only I thing I can see is the markup: Note: You are reading this message either because you can not see our css files, or because you do not have a standards-compliant browser. Read our http://www.f2.com.au/browserstandards/";>browser standards page for details or a text based version of this site is available here. That will be visible to your search engines... it would be better to put this behind a "help" link on the site. Cheers James Tim Lucas wrote: Peter Ottery spoke the following wise words on 20/04/2004 10:27 AM EST: hiya, we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. http://theage.com.au/ Peter, once again my hat goes off to the f2 team. One interesting choice , I noticed, was in the print style sheet where you've set a 600px width for #content. Shouldn't you be letting the UA set it's own margins for printing? Also, have you considered including a rule in the print stylesheet for those using CSS3 capable browsers to print the URL of links? -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Peter Ottery spoke the following wise words on 20/04/2004 10:27 AM EST: hiya, we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. http://theage.com.au/ Peter, once again my hat goes off to the f2 team. One interesting choice , I noticed, was in the print style sheet where you've set a 600px width for #content. Shouldn't you be letting the UA set it's own margins for printing? Also, have you considered including a rule in the print stylesheet for those using CSS3 capable browsers to print the URL of links? -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Title: RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design hi, Justin wrote: >> Firefox loses it's navigation bar >> (left) when resized down from >> 1024 to 800 wide >> and >> place a 1px border or padding on the left edge of the layout, which >> will force your layout to disappear off the right edge of the window >> only (not the left), which will mean the behaviour is "normal" for a >> 1024 layout viewed at 800. & Martin wrote: >> strange behaviours happening with overlaps >> and the left column disappearing out of the >> viewport at sizes smaller than 800x600 I did see this before but figured it was something we'd (unfortunately) have to live with - but i've just implemented your suggestion Justin (HUGE thanks obviously! :) of a 1px padding on the left of the #wrap and firefox now looks to be behaving correctly, with no adverse affects on anything else : http://theage.com.au/ one thing though, as you scale your window down in Firefox, below 800 wide, you'll see the adverts keep drifting - and still cover up some content... any ideas let me know ;-) how good is this list! pete
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Peter, It's great to see another big player strutting a bit of CSS/Standards muscle! I really admire what you're trying to do with JavaScript to use a wider layout where possible (with a sensible default), but resizing the browser window (quote a common occurrence I would have thought) can produce some scary results... Resizing under IE six seems fine (haven't checked 5.x), but Firefox (for example) loses it's navigation bar (left) when resized down from 1024 to 800 wide, and worse still, it can't be scrolled to. In the process, the background image sits in a weird spot (obscuring text), and things like the search box disappear off the right of the screen. I *think* you might be able to solve the problem in one of two ways: a) on resize, reload the page (annoying, but it will fix the problem) b) place a 1px border or padding on the left edge of the layout, which will force your layout to disappear off the right edge of the window only (not the left), which will mean the behaviour is "normal" for a 1024 layout viewed at 800. I stumbled on option B one day when researching something related to what you're doing. Here's a quick sample: "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd";> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; xml:lang="en-au" lang="en-au"> Untitled
#wrapper {
position: relative;
width: 760px;
margin: 0 auto;
padding: 1px;
}
a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z Setting the padding of #wrapper to 0px and resizing to a small window will cause "a b c..." to disapear off the left. But leaving it at 1px will ensure that the left edge of #wrapper doesn't disappear off the left edge of the window. Your combined Mozilla/Firebird audience looks like at least 34372 unique visitors a day, so it's something you probably want to take a look at :) --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
the age looks really good its a lot easier to read than smh.com.au Benjamin Life through a polaroid www.lifethroughapolaroid.com > > > > > > > > Hey Peter, > > I dont know if its your intention, but some pages i loaded wern't > centered... > Like articles etc... > > A comment on your stats the resolution - class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">1400x1050 > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">I am > running this resolution, I didnt realise that many people actually had > it... > > Its a laptop resolution - as far as i know its only laptops... > > nice work! > > damn it must be a lot of work - working for a news website! > so many users, so many computers, so many different OS/Browsers and > other little issues... > > Chris Stratford > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Http://www.neester.com";>Http://www.neester.com > > > Peter Ottery wrote: > > > > hiya, > we > relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. > href="http://theage.com.au/";>http://theage.com.au/ > > a > couple of points of interest: > > a > big part of the redesign was improving the markup - ie: obviously using >tags and tags etc. still have a ways to go and > it'll be a learning process for the many editors etc that maintain the > site (which is why you may come across some irregularities in parts of > the site). class="312014522-19042004">the pages pass thru s many sets of > hands to make it to the live site (so be gentle :) eg: - information > architects -> design (me) -> CMS/tech guys -> editors > the > layout is centred and fixed width - mainly for editorial > reasons/requests for tighter control over positioning and relationships > between elements on the page (eg: pictures relating to headlines). the > default css is for a layout that fits at 800 wide, then a script > detects if you are browsing at 1024 wide or higher and loads a 1024 > css layout (which just overrides some of the width values etc). this > was to satisfy the need for tight control over the layout but to also > try to optimise the layout for the ever growing 1024+ audience (stats > below). > > some > interesting stats: > > > in > the last month theage.com.au has had class="312014522-19042004">1,718,644 > unique visitors > browser > stats for the last month > > IE6 > - 73% > class="312014522-19042004">IE 5.5 - class="312014522-19042004">9% > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">IE 5.5 - class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">9% > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">IE 5.0X - class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">7% > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">Mozilla - class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">1% > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">Firebird - > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">1% > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">Safari - class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">0.7% > > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">screen res > stats for the last month > > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">1024x768 - > 55% > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">800x600 - > 27.4% > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">1280x1024 > - 7% > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">1152x864 - > 3.3% > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004">1400x1050 > - 1.35% > class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"> class="312014522-19042004"
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Peter, Very nice work, I like it alot. Works well in IE. You might want to look at it in FireFox 0.8 though, lots of strange behaviours happening with overlaps and the left column disappearing out of the viewport at sizes smaller than 800x600 Martin Antrobus __ Senior Web Designer, Enterprise Business Solutions CSC 212 Northbourne Ave, Braddon, 2612 ACT Ph: +61 2 6246 8713 Fax: +61 2 6246 8188 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.csc.com creative.csc.com.au This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. Peter Ottery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 20/04/2004 10:27 AM Please respond to wsg To: "'Web Standards Group (E-mail)'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc: Subject: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design hiya, we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. http://theage.com.au/ a couple of points of interest: a big part of the redesign was improving the markup - ie: obviously using tags and tags etc. still have a ways to go and it'll be a learning process for the many editors etc that maintain the site (which is why you may come across some irregularities in parts of the site). the pages pass thru s many sets of hands to make it to the live site (so be gentle :) eg: - information architects -> design (me) -> CMS/tech guys -> editors the layout is centred and fixed width - mainly for editorial reasons/requests for tighter control over positioning and relationships between elements on the page (eg: pictures relating to headlines). the default css is for a layout that fits at 800 wide, then a script detects if you are browsing at 1024 wide or higher and loads a 1024 css layout (which just overrides some of the width values etc). this was to satisfy the need for tight control over the layout but to also try to optimise the layout for the ever growing 1024+ audience (stats below).some interesting stats: in the last month theage.com.au has had 1,718,644 unique visitors browser stats for the last month IE6 - 73% IE 5.5 - 9% IE 5.5 - 9% IE 5.0X - 7% Mozilla - 1% Firebird - 1% Safari - 0.7% screen res stats for the last month 1024x768 - 55% 800x600 - 27.4% 1280x1024 - 7% 1152x864 - 3.3% 1400x1050 - 1.35% (those %'s wont add up - they are just the main ones :) page weight (markup only) yesterday - 65k today - 37kany thoughts/feedback/problems spotted appreciated - as long as they're relevant to this list of course (if they're not feel free to email me directly). pete Peter Ottery Head of Design f2 Network (02) 8596 4450 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.f2.com.au
RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Hi Chris, re>> I dont know if its your intention, but some pages i loaded wern't centered...Like articles etc... ah yes, i should've mentioned that. articles like this one: http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326118737.html were actually published yesterday (and in the old format) - so all articles published from today onwards *should* look like this: http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/20/1082395823193.html let me know if you spotted a new article that had a non-centred problem though. as an aside, the print css isnt currently working either, it'll be fixed shortly. it appears the current call to the print stylesheet... ...was being ignored & when i changed that to... ...it fixed the problem (removed the title and made the rel="stylesheet") anyone know if thats a bug or an expected behaviour? cheers, pete
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Hey Peter, I dont know if its your intention, but some pages i loaded wern't centered... Like articles etc... A comment on your stats the resolution - 1400x1050 I am running this resolution, I didnt realise that many people actually had it... Its a laptop resolution - as far as i know its only laptops... nice work! damn it must be a lot of work - working for a news website! so many users, so many computers, so many different OS/Browsers and other little issues... Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://www.neester.com Peter Ottery wrote: hiya, we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. http://theage.com.au/ a couple of points of interest: a big part of the redesign was improving the markup - ie: obviously using tags and tags etc. still have a ways to go and it'll be a learning process for the many editors etc that maintain the site (which is why you may come across some irregularities in parts of the site). the pages pass thru s many sets of hands to make it to the live site (so be gentle :) eg: - information architects -> design (me) -> CMS/tech guys -> editors the layout is centred and fixed width - mainly for editorial reasons/requests for tighter control over positioning and relationships between elements on the page (eg: pictures relating to headlines). the default css is for a layout that fits at 800 wide, then a script detects if you are browsing at 1024 wide or higher and loads a 1024 css layout (which just overrides some of the width values etc). this was to satisfy the need for tight control over the layout but to also try to optimise the layout for the ever growing 1024+ audience (stats below). some interesting stats: in the last month theage.com.au has had 1,718,644 unique visitors browser stats for the last month IE6 - 73% IE 5.5 - 9% IE 5.5 - 9% IE 5.0X - 7% Mozilla - 1% Firebird - 1% Safari - 0.7% screen res stats for the last month 1024x768 - 55% 800x600 - 27.4% 1280x1024 - 7% 1152x864 - 3.3% 1400x1050 - 1.35% (those %'s wont add up - they are just the main ones :) page weight (markup only) yesterday - 65k today - 37k any thoughts/feedback/problems spotted appreciated - as long as they're relevant to this list of course (if they're not feel free to email me directly). pete Peter Ottery Head of Design f2 Network (02) 8596 4450 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.f2.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] theage.com.au: new design
hiya, we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. http://theage.com.au/ a couple of points of interest: a big part of the redesign was improving the markup - ie: obviously using tags and tags etc. still have a ways to go and it'll be a learning process for the many editors etc that maintain the site (which is why you may come across some irregularities in parts of the site). the pages pass thru s many sets of hands to make it to the live site (so be gentle :) eg: - information architects -> design (me) -> CMS/tech guys -> editors the layout is centred and fixed width - mainly for editorial reasons/requests for tighter control over positioning and relationships between elements on the page (eg: pictures relating to headlines). the default css is for a layout that fits at 800 wide, then a script detects if you are browsing at 1024 wide or higher and loads a 1024 css layout (which just overrides some of the width values etc). this was to satisfy the need for tight control over the layout but to also try to optimise the layout for the ever growing 1024+ audience (stats below). some interesting stats: in the last month theage.com.au has had 1,718,644 unique visitors browser stats for the last month IE6 - 73% IE 5.5 - 9% IE 5.5 - 9% IE 5.0X - 7% Mozilla - 1% Firebird - 1% Safari - 0.7% screen res stats for the last month 1024x768 - 55% 800x600 - 27.4% 1280x1024 - 7% 1152x864 - 3.3% 1400x1050 - 1.35% (those %'s wont add up - they are just the main ones :) page weight (markup only) yesterday - 65k today - 37k any thoughts/feedback/problems spotted appreciated - as long as they're relevant to this list of course (if they're not feel free to email me directly). pete Peter OtteryHead of Designf2 Network(02) 8596 4450[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.f2.com.au
