Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Rich Griffiths]

Please add my vote in favor of removing the slider.

I think the screen presentation should be as simple, "clean", and 
intuitive as possible.  The slider has been none of that.  More 
confusing and counterintuitive than anything.  If there were no slider 
before now, no one would be wanting a control that affects only a graph 
window to be placed on the main window.


... RichW2RG


On 07/19/2017 02:45 PM, Joe Taylor wrote:

Mike --

Don't make the slider optional -- just remove it.

-- Joe

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Gary McDuffie]

> On Jul 19, 2017, at 1:09 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> The patch as-is makes it default to offthat vast majority of people will 
> not need to enable it and if they do, it's clear as a bell in the checkbox to 
> turn it on.
> We'll still get "what happened to the slider" questions.
> Just trying to avoid the complaints of fast graph operators who liked the 
> control in a more handy place by making it optional.

I hate to disagree with “the boss” (please foregive, Joe), but I do on this.  
I’d really like to see it at least available.  Your menu idea works for me.

Gary - AG0N
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

That's a known weakness of the Flattenbut if you bump up the "Start" value 
and make the graph window a bit narrower than your bandpass it works fine.
de Mike W9MDB

  From: Gary McDuffie <mcduf...@ag0n.net>
 To: Black Michael <mdblac...@yahoo.com>; WSJT software development 
<wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 2:43 PM
 Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
   

> On Jul 19, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
> <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> 
> Are you using the fast graph or is there some reason not to use Flatten for 
> you?

With flatten turned on, there are extreme curves add at the edges of the 
receiver bandpass if it is narrower than your display.  Turning it off shows 
the real response and is more usable, at least for me.

Gary - AG0N

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Gary McDuffie]

> On Jul 19, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> Are you using the fast graph or is there some reason not to use Flatten for 
> you?

With flatten turned on, there are extreme curves add at the edges of the 
receiver bandpass if it is narrower than your display.  Turning it off shows 
the real response and is more usable, at least for me.

Gary - AG0N
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

The patch as-is makes it default to offthat vast majority of people will 
not need to enable it and if they do, it's clear as a bell in the checkbox to 
turn it on.We'll still get "what happened to the slider" questions.Just trying 
to avoid the complaints of fast graph operators who liked the control in a more 
handy place by making it optional.
de Mike W9MDB


  From: "Laurie, VK3AMA" <_vk3a...@vkdxer.net>
 To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 2:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
   


On 20/07/2017 4:45 AM, Joe Taylor wrote:
> Mike --
>
> Don't make the slider optional -- just remove it.
>
>    -- Joe

+1 from me.

While ever the slider is immediately adjacent to the level indicator, 
regardless of how many times the true function of the slider has been 
publicly explained, people will complain of perceived broken behaviour. 
Having the slider adjacent to a non-related level indicator is the problem.

de Laurie VK3AMA


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Laurie, VK3AMA]

On 20/07/2017 4:45 AM, Joe Taylor wrote:

Mike --

Don't make the slider optional -- just remove it.

-- Joe


+1 from me.

While ever the slider is immediately adjacent to the level indicator, 
regardless of how many times the true function of the slider has been 
publicly explained, people will complain of perceived broken behaviour. 
Having the slider adjacent to a non-related level indicator is the problem.


de Laurie VK3AMA


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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

There were a few people who still wanted waterfall control from the main 
window...mainly for fastgraph...to avoid having too much mouse movement when 
switching bands.
Just trying to accommodate those operators.  It's harmless to everybody else, 
isn't it?
de Mike W9MDB
  From: Joe Taylor <j...@princeton.edu>
 To: Black Michael via wsjt-devel <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 1:46 PM
 Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
   
Mike --

Don't make the slider optional -- just remove it.

    -- Joe

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Joe Taylor]

Mike --

Don't make the slider optional -- just remove it.

-- Joe

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

For Winders' and JTSDKcd \jtsdk\src\wsjtxsvn patch slider.patch
de Mike W9MDB

  From: dgb <n...@bayland.net>
 To: Black Michael via wsjt-devel <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 1:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
   
 Mike, how does one add those patches? 73 Dwight NS9I
  
 On 7/19/2017 1:01 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
  
  Make main window water fall slider optional in Settings/General.  Add 
in-your-face notice to audio settings.  Improve Transceiver Setup in manual.  
Improve tooltip on inGain slider. 
  https://www.dropbox.com/s/sl2hwlt2me63yfu/slider.patch?dl=1
  
  Comments/tomatoes welcome on the transceiver setup docs.  Tried to add some 
answers to FAQ and hopefully they are clear enough. 
  I intend on making a youtube video on setting up audio. 
  de Mike W9MDB
  
   
  
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[dgb]

Mike, how does one add those patches?

73 Dwight NS9I


On 7/19/2017 1:01 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
Make main window water fall slider optional in Settings/General.  Add 
in-your-face notice to audio settings.  Improve Transceiver Setup in 
manual.  Improve tooltip on inGain slider.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/sl2hwlt2me63yfu/slider.patch?dl=1

Comments/tomatoes welcome on the transceiver setup docs.  Tried to add 
some answers to FAQ and hopefully they are clear enough.


I intend on making a youtube video on setting up audio.

de Mike W9MDB



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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[AB1NJ]

I vote to get rid of the slider once and for all. I'm tired of reading 
about it, as I'm sure people are tired of answering the same question 
over and over again.


Rob AB1NJ

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

Make main window water fall slider optional in Settings/General.  Add 
in-your-face notice to audio settings.  Improve Transceiver Setup in manual.  
Improve tooltip on inGain slider.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sl2hwlt2me63yfu/slider.patch?dl=1

Comments/tomatoes welcome on the transceiver setup docs.  Tried to add some 
answers to FAQ and hopefully they are clear enough.
I intend on making a youtube video on setting up audio.
de Mike W9MDB

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Joe Taylor]

Hi David,

On 7/19/2017 11:42 AM, David Tiller wrote:
Using flatten for me results in a very angry red and yellow mess. I run 
my input signal fairly hot, though. Around 60dB or so. It seems that 
flatten can't handle high input levels.


Almost always, this behavior indicated that you have not followed the 
advice for use of *Flatten* in Section 10.7 of the User Guide:


file:///C:/JTSDK/wsjtx/devel/qt55/1.7.1/Release/install/share/doc/WSJT-X/wsjtx-main-1.7.1-devel.html#CONTROLS_WIDE

FYI: this is the sort of message -- one dealing with configuration or 
use of WSJT-X -- that fits better on the "wsjtgroup" reflector, rather 
than here on "wsjt-devel".


-- 73, Joe, K1JT

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

One thing I've seen many do is keep the Start frequency at 0 instead of 200 for 
example where most rigs roll off.And then having the upper limit above their 
bandpass.  That's adjusted with Bins/pixel and the waterfall width.The Flatten 
works best on an already flat bandpass in the waterfall view.  Otherwise the 
roll off on the edges can confuse it.
de Mike W9MDB

  From: George J Molnar <geo...@molnar.com>
 To: Black Michael <mdblac...@yahoo.com>; WSJT software development 
<wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 10:43 AM
 Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
   
Mike, you're right. Previous experiences with “Flatten” had led me to not use 
it for a long time. Just tested using it, and it is much better than I recall, 
and quite satisfactory!
I respectfully withdraw my support for slider retention. 
PS - I do use the fast graph frequently, but can adjust without difficulty.

George J Molnar, KF2T Nevada, USA


On Jul 19, 2017, at 10:20 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
<wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:


The "Flatten" option on the waterfall solves that problem too.But not for the 
fast graph.Are you using the fast graph or is there some reason not to use 
Flatten for you?
de Mike W9MDB 
  From: George J Molnar <geo...@molnar.com>
 To: WSJT software development <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 10:15 AM
 Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
  
Vote for retention of the slider. Switching bands often calls for readjusting 
the waterfall, and the slider is a convenient, easy to understand tool. 
I wouldn't mind moving it away from the thermometer, to clarify the proper 
function. It isn't really difficult to grasp, though!

George J Molnar, KF2T Nevada, USA


On Jul 19, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Dan Malcolm <dan.malcol...@gmail.com> wrote:



#yiv7561257411 -- filtered {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 
4;}#yiv7561257411 filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv7561257411 
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{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv7561257411 div.yiv7561257411WordSection1 
{}#yiv7561257411 Mike, Bill,FWIW I’d like to keep the slider.  I like the idea 
of encouraging users to read the manual.  From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
[mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:37 PM
To: WSJT software development <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Cc: Black Michael <mdblac...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem  There were those 
that still wanted the waterfall adjustment for the fast graph handy so leaving 
it as an option would be the only solution.  I submitted some tooltip changes a 
while ago to make it pretty much in-your-face on the meter tooltip.Then we need 
to spice up the documentation so be more in-your-face too.  "Transceiver setup" 
as an index title is not intuitive but hopefully most know how to use search 
for keywords.  I tried to see if you could put a hyperlink in a tool tip but 
appears not.  Though about doing a ctrl-click on the meter or such to bring up 
the relevant section in the manual then put the ctrl-click info in the tooltip. 
 de Mike W9MDB  From: Bill Somerville <g4...@classdesign.com>
To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem  On 18/07/2017 
23:32, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
I'd say the vast majority have no use for the slider anymore.So let's hide it 
by default and have an enable checkbox in the config.  I'll do that patch if 
you think that's acceptable...we'll still end up with "what happened to..." but 
se la vie... 
Hi Mike,if you are going to do a patch then remove the slider altogether, that 
is probably the best option. It is of limited value and will always be 
misunderstood by many who don't understand the underlying realities of digital 
samples. Unfortunately the result may well be that those who miss the slider 
will revert to using the operating system sliders which are effectively the 
same thing and equally pointless (even harmful at extreme settings) as the 
WSJT-X slider.  73
Bill
G4WJS.--
Check o

Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[George J Molnar]

Mike, you're right. Previous experiences with “Flatten” had led me to not use 
it for a long time. Just tested using it, and it is much better than I recall, 
and quite satisfactory!

I respectfully withdraw my support for slider retention. 

PS - I do use the fast graph frequently, but can adjust without difficulty.

George J Molnar, KF2T 
Nevada, USA


> On Jul 19, 2017, at 10:20 AM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
> <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> 
> The "Flatten" option on the waterfall solves that problem too.
> But not for the fast graph.
> Are you using the fast graph or is there some reason not to use Flatten for 
> you?
> 
> de Mike W9MDB
>  
> 
> From: George J Molnar <geo...@molnar.com>
> To: WSJT software development <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 10:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
> 
> Vote for retention of the slider. Switching bands often calls for readjusting 
> the waterfall, and the slider is a convenient, easy to understand tool. 
> 
> I wouldn't mind moving it away from the thermometer, to clarify the proper 
> function. It isn't really difficult to grasp, though!
> 
> George J Molnar, KF2T 
> Nevada, USA
> 
> 
>> On Jul 19, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Dan Malcolm <dan.malcol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
> 
> Mike, Bill,
> FWIW I’d like to keep the slider.  I like the idea of encouraging users to 
> read the manual.
>  
> From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:37 PM
> To: WSJT software development <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Cc: Black Michael <mdblac...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
>  
> There were those that still wanted the waterfall adjustment for the fast 
> graph handy so leaving it as an option would be the only solution.
>  
> I submitted some tooltip changes a while ago to make it pretty much 
> in-your-face on the meter tooltip.
> Then we need to spice up the documentation so be more in-your-face too.  
> "Transceiver setup" as an index title is not intuitive but hopefully most 
> know how to use search for keywords.  I tried to see if you could put a 
> hyperlink in a tool tip but appears not.  Though about doing a ctrl-click on 
> the meter or such to bring up the relevant section in the manual then put the 
> ctrl-click info in the tooltip.
>  
> de Mike W9MDB
>  
> From: Bill Somerville <g4...@classdesign.com>
> To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 5:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
>  
> On 18/07/2017 23:32, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
> I'd say the vast majority have no use for the slider anymore.
> So let's hide it by default and have an enable checkbox in the config.
>  
> I'll do that patch if you think that's acceptable...we'll still end up with 
> "what happened to..." but se la vie... 
> Hi Mike,
> if you are going to do a patch then remove the slider altogether, that is 
> probably the best option. It is of limited value and will always be 
> misunderstood by many who don't understand the underlying realities of 
> digital samples. Unfortunately the result may well be that those who miss the 
> slider will revert to using the operating system sliders which are 
> effectively the same thing and equally pointless (even harmful at extreme 
> settings) as the WSJT-X slider.
>  
> 73
> Bill
> G4WJS.
> --
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l

Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[David Tiller]

Using flatten for me results in a very angry red and yellow mess. I run my 
input signal fairly hot, though. Around 60dB or so. It seems that flatten can't 
handle high input levels.


David Tiller | Senior Manager
dtil...@captechconsulting.com
c 804.304.0638 / o 804.355.0511

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From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 11:20 AM
To: WSJT software development
Cc: Black Michael
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

The "Flatten" option on the waterfall solves that problem too.
But not for the fast graph.
Are you using the fast graph or is there some reason not to use Flatten for you?

de Mike W9MDB



From: George J Molnar <geo...@molnar.com>
To: WSJT software development <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

Vote for retention of the slider. Switching bands often calls for readjusting 
the waterfall, and the slider is a convenient, easy to understand tool.

I wouldn't mind moving it away from the thermometer, to clarify the proper 
function. It isn't really difficult to grasp, though!

George J Molnar, KF2T
Nevada, USA


On Jul 19, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Dan Malcolm 
<dan.malcol...@gmail.com<mailto:dan.malcol...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Mike, Bill,
FWIW I’d like to keep the slider.  I like the idea of encouraging users to read 
the manual.

From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:37 PM
To: WSJT software development 
<wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net<mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>>
Cc: Black Michael <mdblac...@yahoo.com<mailto:mdblac...@yahoo.com>>
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

There were those that still wanted the waterfall adjustment for the fast graph 
handy so leaving it as an option would be the only solution.

I submitted some tooltip changes a while ago to make it pretty much 
in-your-face on the meter tooltip.
Then we need to spice up the documentation so be more in-your-face too.  
"Transceiver setup" as an index title is not intuitive but hopefully most know 
how to use search for keywords.  I tried to see if you could put a hyperlink in 
a tool tip but appears not.  Though about doing a ctrl-click on the meter or 
such to bring up the relevant section in the manual then put the ctrl-click 
info in the tooltip.

de Mike W9MDB


From: Bill Somerville <g4...@classdesign.com<mailto:g4...@classdesign.com>>
To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net<mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

On 18/07/2017 23:32, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
I'd say the vast majority have no use for the slider anymore.
So let's hide it by default and have an enable checkbox in the config.

I'll do that patch if you think that's acceptable...we'll still end up with 
"what happened to..." but se la vie...
Hi Mike,
if you are going to do a patch then remove the slider altogether, that is 
probably the best option. It is of limited value and will always be 
misunderstood by many who don't understand the underlying realities of digital 
samples. Unfortunately the result may well be that those who miss the slider 
will revert to using the operating system sliders which are effectively the 
same thing and equally pointless (even harmful at extreme settings) as the 
WSJT-X slider.

73
Bill
G4WJS.
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Richard Lamont]

On 18/07/17 23:52, Bill Somerville wrote:

> if you are going to do a patch then remove the slider altogether

+1 for removal from the main window. I'm not bothered whether something
gets added to the waterfall window, as long as it doesn't duplicate what
the existing four sliders do.

73,
Richard G4DYA

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

The "Flatten" option on the waterfall solves that problem too.But not for the 
fast graph.Are you using the fast graph or is there some reason not to use 
Flatten for you?
de Mike W9MDB 
  From: George J Molnar <geo...@molnar.com>
 To: WSJT software development <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 10:15 AM
 Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
   
Vote for retention of the slider. Switching bands often calls for readjusting 
the waterfall, and the slider is a convenient, easy to understand tool. 
I wouldn't mind moving it away from the thermometer, to clarify the proper 
function. It isn't really difficult to grasp, though!

George J Molnar, KF2T Nevada, USA


On Jul 19, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Dan Malcolm <dan.malcol...@gmail.com> wrote:



#yiv6323648667 #yiv6323648667 -- _filtered #yiv6323648667 
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.yiv6323648667MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv6323648667 
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv6323648667 div.yiv6323648667WordSection1 
{}#yiv6323648667 Mike, Bill,FWIW I’d like to keep the slider.  I like the idea 
of encouraging users to read the manual.  From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel 
[mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:37 PM
To: WSJT software development <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Cc: Black Michael <mdblac...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem  There were those 
that still wanted the waterfall adjustment for the fast graph handy so leaving 
it as an option would be the only solution.  I submitted some tooltip changes a 
while ago to make it pretty much in-your-face on the meter tooltip.Then we need 
to spice up the documentation so be more in-your-face too.  "Transceiver setup" 
as an index title is not intuitive but hopefully most know how to use search 
for keywords.  I tried to see if you could put a hyperlink in a tool tip but 
appears not.  Though about doing a ctrl-click on the meter or such to bring up 
the relevant section in the manual then put the ctrl-click info in the tooltip. 
 de Mike W9MDB  From: Bill Somerville <g4...@classdesign.com>
To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem  On 18/07/2017 
23:32, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
I'd say the vast majority have no use for the slider anymore.So let's hide it 
by default and have an enable checkbox in the config.  I'll do that patch if 
you think that's acceptable...we'll still end up with "what happened to..." but 
se la vie... 
Hi Mike,if you are going to do a patch then remove the slider altogether, that 
is probably the best option. It is of limited value and will always be 
misunderstood by many who don't understand the underlying realities of digital 
samples. Unfortunately the result may well be that those who miss the slider 
will revert to using the operating system sliders which are effectively the 
same thing and equally pointless (even harmful at extreme settings) as the 
WSJT-X slider.  73
Bill
G4WJS.--
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[George J Molnar]

Vote for retention of the slider. Switching bands often calls for readjusting 
the waterfall, and the slider is a convenient, easy to understand tool. 

I wouldn't mind moving it away from the thermometer, to clarify the proper 
function. It isn't really difficult to grasp, though!

George J Molnar, KF2T 
Nevada, USA


> On Jul 19, 2017, at 8:49 AM, Dan Malcolm <dan.malcol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Mike, Bill,
> FWIW I’d like to keep the slider.  I like the idea of encouraging users to 
> read the manual.
>  
> From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:37 PM
> To: WSJT software development <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Cc: Black Michael <mdblac...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
>  
> There were those that still wanted the waterfall adjustment for the fast 
> graph handy so leaving it as an option would be the only solution.
>  
> I submitted some tooltip changes a while ago to make it pretty much 
> in-your-face on the meter tooltip.
> Then we need to spice up the documentation so be more in-your-face too.  
> "Transceiver setup" as an index title is not intuitive but hopefully most 
> know how to use search for keywords.  I tried to see if you could put a 
> hyperlink in a tool tip but appears not.  Though about doing a ctrl-click on 
> the meter or such to bring up the relevant section in the manual then put the 
> ctrl-click info in the tooltip.
>  
> de Mike W9MDB
>  
> From: Bill Somerville <g4...@classdesign.com>
> To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 5:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
>  
> On 18/07/2017 23:32, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
> I'd say the vast majority have no use for the slider anymore.
> So let's hide it by default and have an enable checkbox in the config.
>  
> I'll do that patch if you think that's acceptable...we'll still end up with 
> "what happened to..." but se la vie... 
> Hi Mike,
> if you are going to do a patch then remove the slider altogether, that is 
> probably the best option. It is of limited value and will always be 
> misunderstood by many who don't understand the underlying realities of 
> digital samples. Unfortunately the result may well be that those who miss the 
> slider will revert to using the operating system sliders which are 
> effectively the same thing and equally pointless (even harmful at extreme 
> settings) as the WSJT-X slider.
>  
> 73
> Bill
> G4WJS.
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Dan Malcolm]

Mike, Bill,

FWIW I’d like to keep the slider.  I like the idea of encouraging users to read 
the manual.

 

From: Black Michael via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:37 PM
To: WSJT software development <wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Cc: Black Michael <mdblac...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

 

There were those that still wanted the waterfall adjustment for the fast graph 
handy so leaving it as an option would be the only solution.

 

I submitted some tooltip changes a while ago to make it pretty much 
in-your-face on the meter tooltip.

Then we need to spice up the documentation so be more in-your-face too.  
"Transceiver setup" as an index title is not intuitive but hopefully most know 
how to use search for keywords.  I tried to see if you could put a hyperlink in 
a tool tip but appears not.  Though about doing a ctrl-click on the meter or 
such to bring up the relevant section in the manual then put the ctrl-click 
info in the tooltip.

 

de Mike W9MDB

 

  _  

From: Bill Somerville <g4...@classdesign.com <mailto:g4...@classdesign.com> >
To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>  
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

 

On 18/07/2017 23:32, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

I'd say the vast majority have no use for the slider anymore.

So let's hide it by default and have an enable checkbox in the config.

 

I'll do that patch if you think that's acceptable...we'll still end up with 
"what happened to..." but se la vie... 

Hi Mike,

if you are going to do a patch then remove the slider altogether, that is 
probably the best option. It is of limited value and will always be 
misunderstood by many who don't understand the underlying realities of digital 
samples. Unfortunately the result may well be that those who miss the slider 
will revert to using the operating system sliders which are effectively the 
same thing and equally pointless (even harmful at extreme settings) as the 
WSJT-X slider.

 

73
Bill
G4WJS.

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

There were those that still wanted the waterfall adjustment for the fast graph 
handy so leaving it as an option would be the only solution.
I submitted some tooltip changes a while ago to make it pretty much 
in-your-face on the meter tooltip.Then we need to spice up the documentation so 
be more in-your-face too.  "Transceiver setup" as an index title is not 
intuitive but hopefully most know how to use search for keywords.  I tried to 
see if you could put a hyperlink in a tool tip but appears not.  Though about 
doing a ctrl-click on the meter or such to bring up the relevant section in the 
manual then put the ctrl-click info in the tooltip.
de Mike W9MDB
  From: Bill Somerville <g4...@classdesign.com>
 To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net 
 Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 5:54 PM
 Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
   
 On 18/07/2017 23:32, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:
  
 I'd say the vast majority have no use for the slider anymore. So let's hide it 
by default and have an enable checkbox in the config. 
  I'll do that patch if you think that's acceptable...we'll still end up with 
"what happened to..." but se la vie...  
 Hi Mike, if you are going to do a patch then remove the slider altogether, 
that is probably the best option. It is of limited value and will always be 
misunderstood by many who don't understand the underlying realities of digital 
samples. Unfortunately the result may well be that those who miss the slider 
will revert to using the operating system sliders which are effectively the 
same thing and equally pointless (even harmful at extreme settings) as the 
WSJT-X slider.
  73
 Bill
 G4WJS.
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Bill Somerville]

Hi Robin,

 comments in line below.

On 19/07/2017 01:24, G8DQX (WSJT developers on SF) wrote:


surely the operating system (OS) level sliders will affect the level 
of *both* the signal to be decoded and the level of the waterfall. The 
WSJT-X "gain" slider affects the waterfall and spectrum displays only, 
but does not interfere with the (digital) signal path to the decoder. 
That said, there is only an obvious effect if the *Flatten* option is 
*not* selected.


Yes the o/s sliders will adjust the level to the decoders. This is a bad 
thing that we cannot really avoid (in fact we can but it might cause 
even more controversy).


If one was starting with a clean sheet for the user interface (UI), 
the slider in question would be on the spectrum/waterfall display, 
along with the 4 other sliders that control the spectrum/waterfall 
display, and everything would be calibrated in dB for consistency and 
ease of setting up 


Which waterfall display? There is more than one. Having a master control 
on the main window does have merits. The problem is not the function of 
the slider but the many users that think it does something it never has 
done.


In short, leave the UI as it is now, for fear that turning over the 
stone one would feel compelled to fix the unpleasantness underneath—a 
non-trivial task.



What unpleasantness?

73
Bill
G4WJS.

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[G8DQX (WSJT developers on SF)]

Bill,

surely the operating system (OS) level sliders will affect the level of 
*both* the signal to be decoded and the level of the waterfall. The 
WSJT-X "gain" slider affects the waterfall and spectrum displays only, 
but does not interfere with the (digital) signal path to the decoder. 
That said, there is only an obvious effect if the *Flatten* option is 
*not* selected.


If one was starting with a clean sheet for the user interface (UI), the 
slider in question would be on the spectrum/waterfall display, along 
with the 4 other sliders that control the spectrum/waterfall display, 
and everything would be calibrated in dB for consistency and ease of 
setting up 


In short, leave the UI as it is now, for fear that turning over the 
stone one would feel compelled to fix the unpleasantness underneath—a 
non-trivial task.


HTH,

Robin, G8DQX


On 18/07/17 23:52, Bill Somerville wrote:


Hi Mike,

if you are going to do a patch then remove the slider altogether, that 
is probably the best option. It is of limited value and will always be 
misunderstood by many who don't understand the underlying realities of 
digital samples. Unfortunately the result may well be that those who 
miss the slider will revert to using the operating system sliders 
which are effectively the same thing and equally pointless (even 
harmful at extreme settings) as the WSJT-X slider.


73
Bill
G4WJS.



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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Bill Somerville]

On 18/07/2017 23:32, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote:

I'd say the vast majority have no use for the slider anymore.
So let's hide it by default and have an enable checkbox in the config.

I'll do that patch if you think that's acceptable...we'll still end up 
with "what happened to..." but se la vie...


Hi Mike,

if you are going to do a patch then remove the slider altogether, that 
is probably the best option. It is of limited value and will always be 
misunderstood by many who don't understand the underlying realities of 
digital samples. Unfortunately the result may well be that those who 
miss the slider will revert to using the operating system sliders which 
are effectively the same thing and equally pointless (even harmful at 
extreme settings) as the WSJT-X slider.


73
Bill
G4WJS.

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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Black Michael via wsjt-devel]

I'd say the vast majority have no use for the slider anymore.So let's hide it 
by default and have an enable checkbox in the config.
I'll do that patch if you think that's acceptable...we'll still end up with 
"what happened to..." but se la vie... 
de Mike W9MDB

  From: Bill Somerville <g4...@classdesign.com>
 To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net 
 Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 4:46 PM
 Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem
   
 On 18/07/2017 22:20, W4LDE-Ron wrote:
  
I recently download and installed WSJT-x 1.8.0 RC1 (R7843) over my existing 
1.7.1 and have run all modes successfully but
 I have noticed that the audio in slider doesn't function at all in the this 
latest version.
 
 I operate WIN10 with all current updates.  To test this bug I loaded a fresh 
install of 1.7.1 on a different PC, a Sony laptop and the audio in
 slider works as expected.  I then set the audio in for 30db.
 
 I installed ver 1.8.0 RC-1 over the 1.7.0.  The audio in behaved the same as 
on the 1st install on a HP desk top.  Whats interesting is that the audio in 
setting
 is exactly as left by ver 1.7 but again the slider will not function.
 Hi Ron, as has been discussed here and on the Yahoo wsjtgroup support group 
several times, the change in behaviour between v1.7 and v1.8 is that the slider 
no longer adjusts the level of the thermometer indicator next to it, it still 
effects the gain of both horizontal and vertical waterfalls and the 2D spectrum 
below the vertical waterfall. It never has effected the digital audio level to 
the decoders. The decoupling from the level indicator was done to reinforce the 
fact that it has no bearing on decoding and never has. The level indicator has 
become a bit smarter in v1.8 as it covers 90 dB (with respect to an ADC count 
of one) and it is colour coded to indicate excessively high or low signal 
levels. 73
 Bill
 G4WJS.
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Re: [wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[Bill Somerville]

On 18/07/2017 22:20, W4LDE-Ron wrote:
I recently download and installed WSJT-x 1.8.0 RC1 (R7843) over my 
existing 1.7.1 and have run all modes successfully but
I have noticed that the audio in slider doesn't function at all in the 
this latest version.


I operate WIN10 with all current updates.  To test this bug I loaded a 
fresh install of 1.7.1 on a different PC, a Sony laptop and the audio in

slider works as expected.  I then set the audio in for 30db.

I installed ver 1.8.0 RC-1 over the 1.7.0.  The audio in behaved the 
same as on the 1st install on a HP desk top.  Whats interesting is 
that the audio in setting

is exactly as left by ver 1.7 but again the slider will not function.


Hi Ron,

as has been discussed here and on the Yahoo wsjtgroup support group 
several times, the change in behaviour between v1.7 and v1.8 is that the 
slider no longer adjusts the level of the thermometer indicator next to 
it, it still effects the gain of both horizontal and vertical waterfalls 
and the 2D spectrum below the vertical waterfall. It never has effected 
the digital audio level to the decoders. The decoupling from the level 
indicator was done to reinforce the fact that it has no bearing on 
decoding and never has.


The level indicator has become a bit smarter in v1.8 as it covers 90 dB 
(with respect to an ADC count of one) and it is colour coded to indicate 
excessively high or low signal levels.


73
Bill
G4WJS.

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[wsjt-devel] Ver 1.8 RC1 audio in slider problem

[W4LDE-Ron]

I recently download and installed WSJT-x 1.8.0 RC1 (R7843) over my 
existing 1.7.1 and have run all modes successfully but
I have noticed that the audio in slider doesn't function at all in the 
this latest version.


I operate WIN10 with all current updates. To test this bug I loaded a 
fresh install of 1.7.1 on a different PC, a Sony laptop and the audio in

slider works as expected.  I then set the audio in for 30db.

I installed ver 1.8.0 RC-1 over the 1.7.0.  The audio in behaved the 
same as on the 1st install on a HP desk top. Whats interesting is that 
the audio in setting

is exactly as left by ver 1.7 but again the slider will not function.

73 de Ron W4LDE






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