subject:"Re\: \[zfs\-discuss\] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver"

exactly.

that's why i'm trying to get an account on that site (looks like open 
registration for the forums is disabled) so i can shoot the breeze and talk 
about all this stuff too.

zfs would be perfect for this as most these guys are trying to find hardware 
raid cards that will fit, etc... with mini-itx boards coming with 4 and now 6 
ports, that isn't an issue, as long as onboard SATA2+ZFS is "fast enough" 
everyone wins.
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

If I understood properly there is just one piece that has to be modified: a 
flat alluminium board with a squared hole in the center, that any fine mechanic 
around your city should do very easily...

The problem more than the noise in this tight case might be the temperature!
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

that mashie link might be exactly what i wanted...

that mini-itx board w/ 6 SATA. use CF maybe for boot (might need IDE to CF 
converter) - 5 drive holder (hotswap as a bonus) - you get 4 gig ram, 
core2-based chip (64-bit), onboard graphics, 5 SATA2 drives... that is cool.

however. would need to hack it up (and I don't have any metal cutting stuff) 
and who knows how loud it is without any front on those drives. i'd want a 
small cover on top to help with noise.

looks like i might have to hang out over on the mashie site now too ;)
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

A little case modding maybe not so difficult...there are examples (and 
instructions) like: 
http://www.mashie.org/casemods/udat2.html

But for sure there are more advanced like:
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=76374&pp=20

And here you can have a full example of the human ingenious!!
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/06/cool-computer-case-mods.html
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

I'd say some good places to look are silentpcreview.com and mini-itx.com.

I found this tasty morsel on an ad at mini-itx...
http://www.american-portwell.com/product.php?productid=16133

6x onboard SATA. 4 gig support. core2duo support. which means 64 bit = yes, 4 
gig = yes, 6x sata is nice.

now if only I could find a chassis for this. AFAIK the Chenbro is the only > 2 
drive mini-itx chassis so far. I wish I knew metal working and carve up my own 
:P
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-29 Thread Brandon High

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:20 AM, Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So is Intel better? Which motherboard could be a good choice? (microatx?)

Inexpensive Intel motherboards do not support ECC memory while all
current AMD cpus do.

If ECC is important to you, Intel is not a good choice.

I'm disappointed that there is no support for power management on the
K8, which is a bit of a shock since Sun's been selling K8 based
systems for a few years now. The cost of an X3 ($125) and AM2+ mobo
($80) is about the same as an Intel chip ($80) and motherboard ($150)
that supports ECC.

-B

-- 
Brandon High [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The good is the enemy of the best." - Nietzsche
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

waynel wrote:
> 
> We have a couple of machines similar to your just
> spec'ed.  They have worked great.  The only problem
> is, the power management routine only works for K10
> and later.  We will move to Intel core 2 duo for
> future machines (mainly b/c power management
> considerations).
> 

So is Intel better? Which motherboard could be a good choice? (microatx?)
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-29 Thread Bob Friesenhahn

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008, Steve wrote:

> I agree with mike503. If you create the awareness (of the 
> instability of recorded information) there is a large potential 
> market waiting for a ZFS/NAS little server!

The big mistake in the posting was to assume that Sun should be in 
this market.  Sun has no experience in the "consumer" market and as 
far as I know, it has never tried to field a "consumer" product.

Anyone here is free to go into business selling ready-made NAS servers 
based on OpenSolaris.  Except for Adaptec SnapServer (which is 
pricey), almost all of the competition for small NAS servers is based 
on a special version of Microsoft Windows targeted for NAS service and 
which only offers CIFS.

Bob
==
Bob Friesenhahn
[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/
GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/

___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

I agree with mike503. If you create the awareness (of the instability of 
recorded information) there is a large potential market waiting for a ZFS/NAS 
little server!

Very nice the thin client idea. It will be good to also use the NAS server as a 
full server and use remotely with a very thin client! (in this sense it can be 
larger ;-)
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

I didn't use any.

That would be my -ideal- setup :)

I waited and waited, and still no eSATA/Port Multiplier support out there, or 
isn't stable enough. So I scrapped it.
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-29 Thread Justin Vassallo

> Actually, my ideal setup would be:

>Shuttle XPC w/ 2x PCI-e x8 or x16 lanes
>2x PCI-e eSATA cards (each with 4 eSATA port multiplier ports)

Mike, may I ask which eSATA controllers you used? I searched the Solaris HCL
and found very few listed there

Thanks
justin


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-28 Thread mike

Holy crap! That sounds cool. Firmware-based-VPN connectivity!

At Intel we're getting better too I suppose.

Anyway... I don't know where you're at in the company but you should rattle 
some cages about my idea :)
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-28 Thread Willem van Schaik

W. Wayne Liauh wrote:
> As to cases, our experience is, unless you have good air-conditioning or have 
> a means to nicely enclose your machine (like the BlackBox :-)  ), get a box 
> as big as your space would allow.  We had enough bad experiences with mini 
> cases, especially those Shuttle-type boxes. 
>   
Unfortunately I must agree.

I've two Shuttle servers and I really, really love them. They're small, 
beautiful (at least mine, a SN85G4 
) and pretty 
silent. The one in my study is a real desktop in a sense that it sits 
"on top of my desk" :) and the other one is the PVR in my basement. All 
is fine and humming silently along.

But when the summer nights start to get warmer, like it happened here in 
the last few weeks, in my case :-) the CPU is still OK, but the on-board 
NIC starts to "break up". Kind of doing a ping and 50% + of the packages 
fails. Try to do an ftp with that. :-)

I still adhere to 'small is beautiful', but it gives indeed some 
problems. Luckily, sometimes solutions come from unexpected angles. In 
my case I got a silent desktop through my new "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" 
(http://blogs.sun.com/wwwillem/entry/silence_and_pavlov).

Willem

___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-28 Thread mike

I would love to go back to using shuttles.

Actually, my ideal setup would be:

Shuttle XPC w/ 2x PCI-e x8 or x16 lanes
2x PCI-e eSATA cards (each with 4 eSATA port multiplier ports)
then I could chain up to 8 enclosures off a single small, nearly silent host 
machine.

8 enclosures x 5 drives = 40 drives... and it leaves open the possibility to 
change enclosures and find the quietest ones too. I got tired of  having large 
beefy machines a while ago. Problem is, eSATA/PMP support isn't very mature yet 
even in opensolaris.

I would be open to building a 5 drive mini-NAS box using ZFS, if I had more 
money to throw on ordering (and possibly returning, depending on if it worked 
or not) the right equipment. There's a variety of components I've been 
monitoring for just such a project, but I am wary due to hardware compatibility 
concerns.

I am not sure I can find small enough components that will allow for 4 gigs of 
ram, silence, proper heat disappation and a boot environment for Solaris. Also, 
that solves the hardware/main OS piece; creating some sort of fun web-based UI 
and making some sort of appliance out of it would be a great next step.

Sun should totally be looking into ZFS-based small business/home NAS boxes. 
Like the ReadyNAS style - basically just 5 drives, and somehow work with a case 
manufacturer to get a chassis that can fit a decent chip in there worthy of 
powering ZFS/CIFS/NFS and related stuff, a 64bit OS, 4 gig ram etc.

So far I've found the Chenbro 4 drive one, I built it, it's quiet and neat and 
all, but it's only 32-bit, I think it maxes out at 2 gig ram, etc. The VIA 
stuff is cool too because the current generation comes with onboard crypto 
which is -amazingly- fast, and would be great in combination with ZFS crypto 
(think about all those dentist, doctor offices, banking/financial institutions, 
etc which need workstation and backup storage... I see a -huge- market there 
myself, and crypto would meet the HIPPA and financial privacy needs), snapshots 
would probably be damn useful for all of them too!
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-28 Thread W. Wayne Liauh

> I have built mine the last few days, and it seems to
> be running fine right now.
> 
> Originally I wanted Solaris 10, but switched to using
> SXCE (nevada build 94, the latest right now) because
> I wanted the new CIFS support and some additional ZFS
> features.
> 
> Here's my setup. These were my goals:
> - Quiet as possible
> - Compact as possible
> - 6 drives minimum
> - Has all the right chipsets/etc. that Solaris of
> some sort supports
> 
> Case: Antec P182
> CPU: Athlon64 X2 Dual Core 4450e 2.3GHz (figured
> lower power is cool)
> Mobo: Asus M2N-SLI Deluxe (6 onboard SATA, 1 PATA [2
> devices], 1 other SATA, but not supported well good
> enough for booting it seems)
> Optical: some random IDE DVD-RW I picked up
> Boot: Seagate IDE
> Data: 6x1TB Seagate SATA2
> RAM: 4GB(2x2GB) DDR2 PC6400 800MHz Matched Pair
> Kingston (non ECC, unbuffered)
> Power Supply: CoolMax PS-V500 500W
> 



We have a couple of machines similar to your just spec'ed.  They have worked 
great.  The only problem is, the power management routine only works for K10 
and later.  We will move to Intel core 2 duo for future machines (mainly b/c 
power management considerations).

Another thought is about the SLI boards.  For use as servers, we really don't 
need fancy video cards, which consume large amounts of power, and are actively 
explore the option of micro MBs with built-in Intel video.

As to cases, our experience is, unless you have good air-conditioning or have a 
means to nicely enclose your machine (like the BlackBox :-)  ), get a box as 
big as your space would allow.  We had enough bad experiences with mini cases, 
especially those Shuttle-type boxes.
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-28 Thread Florin Iucha

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 04:13:54PM -0700, Steve wrote:
> Since the information obtained it seems that the better choice is ASUS 
> M2A-VM: tested "happily", enough cheap (47€), not bad performing, 4 sata, gb 
> ethernet, dvi, firewire, ecc. The only notice was a possible DMA bug of the 
> south bridge, but it seems not so important. (!)
> 
> Now the options will be processor and memory.
> 
> What about a (50€) Athlon64 X2 4450E (g2, 45W)?

The combo works and it is power-efficient.  Just not under Solaris, as
for some reason the power management cannot perform frequency scaling,
so you end up running at max frequency and idling at 110W instead of
60W.  Which is nice for latency... but bad for environment.

Cheers,
florin

PS: I filed a bug on Saturday, but I haven't received the
acknowledgment yet.

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
  http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163

pgpPPuZimK6ew.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-28 Thread mike

I have built mine the last few days, and it seems to be running fine right now.

Originally I wanted Solaris 10, but switched to using SXCE (nevada build 94, 
the latest right now) because I wanted the new CIFS support and some additional 
ZFS features.

Here's my setup. These were my goals:
- Quiet as possible
- Compact as possible
- 6 drives minimum
- Has all the right chipsets/etc. that Solaris of some sort supports

Case: Antec P182
CPU: Athlon64 X2 Dual Core 4450e 2.3GHz (figured lower power is cool)
Mobo: Asus M2N-SLI Deluxe (6 onboard SATA, 1 PATA [2 devices], 1 other SATA, 
but not supported well good enough for booting it seems)
Optical: some random IDE DVD-RW I picked up
Boot: Seagate IDE
Data: 6x1TB Seagate SATA2
RAM: 4GB(2x2GB) DDR2 PC6400 800MHz Matched Pair Kingston (non ECC, unbuffered)
Power Supply: CoolMax PS-V500 500W

I got a Zalman heatsink/fan cooler that runs at 19dBa to replace the stock AMD 
one.

I also got a 5.25" -> 3.5" enclosure so I can put my boot drive in the case. 
The case itself only has room for 6 3.5" drives normally.

Originally I had an SATA DVD-ROM on that 7th port on the motherboard, it would 
boot the Solaris 10u5 and the Nevada 94 DVDs, but when it came time to install 
the OS/drivers, it could not load the DVD any longer. So it appears that 
chipset is not supported properly yet even in snv_94 (or I just didn't know 
what I was doing)

The IDE DVD drive has no issues. I had my choice, and installed Solaris 10u5 
first, but then noticed it didn't have the in-kernel CIFS server, which I was 
really hoping to use. I'd like to get the most performance I can get. I haven't 
done any benchmarks and I am new to Solaris so I am still learning but as of 
right now I think it is smooth sailing. I was able to easily setup a zpool, 
create some ZFS filesystems, share one of them via CIFS and mount it on XP, etc.

It's a damn shame the HCL is so out of date. Also, die-hard Solaris folks don't 
seem to think this is a big issue, but someone coming from Linux/FreeBSD land 
thinks that the whole OpenSolaris vs. Nevada/SXCE vs. Solaris thing is 
confusing as hell, and made product selection a pain in the neck, as I wanted 
to build an Intel-based machine (I get discounts) and some Intel motherboards 
have 8 onboard SATA ports, but I don't know if the NIC chipsets and onboard 
video and such are supported properly... so I didn't want to order those and 
wind up having to return/RMA them somehow if they didn't work.
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-28 Thread Steve

Since the information obtained it seems that the better choice is ASUS M2A-VM: 
tested "happily", enough cheap (47€), not bad performing, 4 sata, gb ethernet, 
dvi, firewire, ecc. The only notice was a possible DMA bug of the south bridge, 
but it seems not so important. (!)


Now the options will be processor and memory.

What about a (50€) Athlon64 X2 4450E (g2, 45W)?


And about memory options, what and how much to chose? To have idea of the 
offers:

CORSAIR DDR2 TWIN2X4096-6400C4DHX 4GB (2GB x 2) CAS 4
80,50EUR

KINGSTON 1GB 333MHz (PC-2700) DDR Non-ECC CL2.5
28,30EUR

OCZ Platinum PC3-12800 DDR3 XTC 2x1GB
128,00EUR

CORSAIR DDR PC400 512MB CL 2.5
16,30EUR

TEAM DDR2 800mhz 1GB CL5.0 (pc6400)
18,50EUR

OCZ DDR2 PC2-8500 Reaper HPC 4GB Edition
103,00EUR

V-DATA DDR2 800MHZ 1GB
15,90EUR

TEAM DDR2 800 2x2GB TEDD4096M800HC5DC
64,00EUR

OCZ DDR2 OCZ2T800C44GK Titanium 4GB (2GB x 2)
89,00EUR

GEIL DDR2-800 PC2-6400 KIT 2x1GB ULTRA (GX22GB6400UDC)
42,00EUR

CORSAIR DDR PC400 1GB CL3 VS1GB400C3
28,50EUR

CORSAIR DDR2 KIT 2x2GB PC8500 1066Mhz-555 XMS2-DHX + fan
112,60EUR

CORSAIR DDR2 800Mhz XMS2 2GB DDR2 KIT (2X1GB) DHX Cl.5
49,50EUR

G.Skill DDR2 800Mhz 4GB Cl.4 F2-6400CL4D-4GBPK (2x2GB)
85,00EUR

CORSAIR DDR2 800Mhz XMS2 2GB DDR2 KIT (2X1GB) DHX Cl.4
48,50EUR

A-DATA DDR2 800Mhz 1GB CL5.0
16,20EUR

A-DATA DDR PC400 1GB CL3
24,00EUR

KINGSTON ValueRAM DDR2 2Gb 800MHz PC2-6400 P/N: KVR800D2N5/2G
28,50EUR
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-25 Thread mike

yeah, i have not been pleased with the quality of the HCL.

there's plenty of hardware discussed on the forums and if you search the bugs 
db that has been confirmed and/or fixed to work on various builds of osol and 
solaris 10.

i wound up buying an AMD based machine (i wanted Intel) with 6 onboard SATA; 
Intel mobos had 8 onboard SATA; would have saved me some hassle. it was ICH10 
too which is considered "Solaris Certified" or whatever. but the rest of the 
motherboard chipsets - graphics, network, etc. i could not verify good enough, 
and i am not ordering parts online which don't work and have to return them. i 
have had to do that too many times in the past.
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-25 Thread Steve

http://app.blist.com/#/blist/mar.ste/Micro-mini-ATX-mainboards-for-Solaris-ZFS-NAS-server
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-25 Thread Steve

In order to try to track the discussion I've created a "wikiable" web list of 
what was discussed on this thread and what I found on HCL!

The problem is still the same: what are the best ones to pick up? ;-)

Comments are open (also on feature to list) and everyone can edit the list!
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-25 Thread mike

Don't take my opinion. I am a newbie to everything solaris.

>From what it looks like in the HCL, some of the VIA stuff is supported. Like I 
>said I tried some nexenta CD...

They don't make 64-bit, first off, and I am not sure if any of their mini-itx 
boards support more than 2 gig ram. ZFS loves 64-bit and RAM, so those might be 
some shortcomings. But you should try it if you really want still. I wasn't 
patient enough to try learning the diffs between Solaris, SXCE, OSOL, Nexenta 
and hack drivers if needed etc. I just needed a working box at the time.
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-25 Thread Steve

Since it seems is not working I'm not going for this case!
And is a peaty for such a "perfect" case!
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-25 Thread mike

i have that chassis too. did solaris install for you? what version/build?

i think i tried a nexenta build and it crapped out on install.

i also only have 2 gigs of ram in it and a CF card to boot off of...

4 drives is too small for what i want, 5 drives would be my minimum. i was 
hoping this would work a little bit better. but it is a cute little case.

note: be sure to get low profile ram if you get a slim/laptop optical drive!
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

>  s> And, if better I'm open also to intel!
> intel you can possibly get onboard AHCI that works,
>  and the intel
> igabit MAC, and 16GB instead of 8GB RAM on a desktop
> board.  Also the
> video may be better-supported.  but it's, you know,
> intel.

Miles, sorry, but probably I'm missing something to properly understand your 
closing comment about intel!
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Steve
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > And interesting of booting from CF, but it seems is
> possible to boot from the zraid and I would go for
> it!
> 
> It's not possible to boot from a raidz volume yet.
> You can only boot
> from a single drive or a mirror.

If I understood properly is possible since April this year, but yes, there are 
still open issues that are being solved! :-)
http://opensolaris.org/os/community/zfs/boot/
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

Thank you very much Brandon for pointing out the issue for the case!!
(anyway that's really a peaty, I hope it will find a solution!...)

About Atom a person from Sun was pointing out the only good version for ZFS 
would be N200 (64bit). Anyway I wouldn't make a problem of money (still ;-), 
but appropriateness (in case of Atom maybe is the heating / consumption). For 
the sheet specifications for me the intel seems a good one... just I don't know 
if is fully/partially compatible or not!

Hopefully this thread would suggest to me and to many other (I think) are 
thinking about building a "little" home ZFS NAS server one or more reference mb!
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-24 Thread Neal Pollack

Miles Nordin wrote:
>> "s" == Steve  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> 
>
>  s> About freedom: I for sure would prefere open source drivers
>  s> availability, let's account for it!
>
> There is source for the Intel gigabit cards in the source browser.
>
>   
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/e1000g/
>
> There is source for some Broadcom gigabit cards (bge)
>
>   
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/bge/
>
> but they don't always work well.  There is a closed-source bcme driver
> for the same cards downloaded from Broadcom that Benjamin Ellison is
> using instead.
>
> I believe this is source an nForce ethernet driver (!):
>
>   
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/nge/
>
> but can't promise this is the driver that actually attaches to your
> nForce 570 board.  Also there's this:
>
>   http://bugs.opensolaris.org/view_bug.do?bug_id=6728522
>
> wikipedia says the forcedeth chips are crap, and always were even with
> closed-source windows drivers, but they couldn't be worse than
> broadcom.
>
> I believe this source goes with the Realtek 8169/8110 gigabit MAC:
>
>   
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/rge/rge_main.c
>
> On NewEgg many boards say they have Realtek ethernet.  If it is 8169
> or 8110, that is an actual MAC chip.  usually it's a different number,
> and they are talking about the PHY chip which doesn't determine the
> driver.
>   

One of our engineers has also just updated the code to support the 
Realtek 8111c version chip.
That should be in build 95 of Nevada.

> This is Theo de Raadt's favorite chip because Realtek is cooperative
> with documentation.  However I think I've read on this list that chip
> is slow and flakey under Solaris.
>
>
> If using the Sil3124 with stable solaris, I guess you need a very new
> release:
>
>  http://bugs.opensolaris.org/view_bug.do?bug_id=2157034
>
> The other problem is that there are different versions of this chip,
> so the lack of bug reports doesn't give you much safety right after a
> new chip stepping silently starts oozing into the market, unmarked by
> the retailers.
>
> It looks like the SATA drivers that come with source have their source
> here:
>
>  
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/sata/adapters/
>
> The ATI chipset for AMD/AM2+ is ahci (but does not work well.  you'll
> need an add-on card.)  I assume the nForce chipset is nv_sata, which
> I'm astonished to find seems to come with source.  And, of course,
> there is Sil3124!
>
> The sil3112 driver is somewhere else.  I don't think you should use
> that one.  I think you should use a ``SATA framework'' chip.
>
> Marvell/thumper and LSI Logic mpt SATA drivers are closed-source, so
> if you want a system where most drivers come with source code you
> really need to build your own, not buy one of the Sun systems.  but
> there is what looks like a BSD-licensed LSI Logic driver here:
>
>  
> http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/mega_sas/
>
> so, I am not sure what is the open/closed status of the LSI board.  I
> was pretty sure the one in the Ultra 25 is the mpt and attaches to the
> SCSI/FC stack, not the SATA stack, and was closed-source.  so maybe
> this is another case of two drivers for one chip?  or maybe I was
> wrong?
>
> I'm not sure the ``SATA framework'' itself is open-source.  I believe
> at one time it was not, but I don't know where to find a comprehensive
> list of the unfree bits in your OpenSolaris 2008.5 CD.  
>
> I'm hoping if enough people rant about this nonsense, we will shift
> the situation.  For now it seems to be in Sun's best interest to be
> vague about what's open source and what's not because people see the
> name `Open' in OpenSolaris and impatiently assume the whole thing is
> open-source like most Linux CD's.  We should have a more defensive
> situation where their interest is better-served by being very detailed
> and up-front about what's open and what isn't.
>
>
> I haven't figured out an easy way to tell quickly which drivers are
> free and which are not, even with great effort.  Not only is an
> overall method missing, but a stumbling method does not work well
> because there are many decoy drivers which don't actually attach
> except in circumstances other than yours.  I need to find in the
> source a few more tables, the PCI ID to kernel module name mapping,
> and the kernel module name to build tree mapping.  I don't know if
> such files exist, or if the only way it's stored is through execution
> of spaghetti Makefiles available through numerous scattered ``gates''.
> Of course this won't help root out unfree ``frameworks'' either.
>
> For non-driver pieces of the OS, this is something the package
> management tool can do on Linux and BSD, albeit clumsily---you feed
> object filenames

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-24 Thread Miles Nordin

> "s" == Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

s> About freedom: I for sure would prefere open source drivers
s> availability, let's account for it!

There is source for the Intel gigabit cards in the source browser.

http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/e1000g/

There is source for some Broadcom gigabit cards (bge)

http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/bge/

but they don't always work well. There is a closed-source bcme driver
for the same cards downloaded from Broadcom that Benjamin Ellison is
using instead.

I believe this is source an nForce ethernet driver (!):

http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/nge/

but can't promise this is the driver that actually attaches to your
nForce 570 board. Also there's this:

http://bugs.opensolaris.org/view_bug.do?bug_id=6728522

wikipedia says the forcedeth chips are crap, and always were even with
closed-source windows drivers, but they couldn't be worse than
broadcom.

I believe this source goes with the Realtek 8169/8110 gigabit MAC:

http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/rge/rge_main.c

On NewEgg many boards say they have Realtek ethernet. If it is 8169
or 8110, that is an actual MAC chip. usually it's a different number,
and they are talking about the PHY chip which doesn't determine the
driver.

This is Theo de Raadt's favorite chip because Realtek is cooperative
with documentation. However I think I've read on this list that chip
is slow and flakey under Solaris.

If using the Sil3124 with stable solaris, I guess you need a very new
release:

http://bugs.opensolaris.org/view_bug.do?bug_id=2157034

The other problem is that there are different versions of this chip,
so the lack of bug reports doesn't give you much safety right after a
new chip stepping silently starts oozing into the market, unmarked by
the retailers.

It looks like the SATA drivers that come with source have their source
here:

http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/sata/adapters/

The ATI chipset for AMD/AM2+ is ahci (but does not work well. you'll
need an add-on card.) I assume the nForce chipset is nv_sata, which
I'm astonished to find seems to come with source. And, of course,
there is Sil3124!

The sil3112 driver is somewhere else. I don't think you should use
that one. I think you should use a ``SATA framework'' chip.

Marvell/thumper and LSI Logic mpt SATA drivers are closed-source, so
if you want a system where most drivers come with source code you
really need to build your own, not buy one of the Sun systems. but
there is what looks like a BSD-licensed LSI Logic driver here:

http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/io/mega_sas/

so, I am not sure what is the open/closed status of the LSI board. I
was pretty sure the one in the Ultra 25 is the mpt and attaches to the
SCSI/FC stack, not the SATA stack, and was closed-source. so maybe
this is another case of two drivers for one chip? or maybe I was
wrong?

I'm not sure the ``SATA framework'' itself is open-source. I believe
at one time it was not, but I don't know where to find a comprehensive
list of the unfree bits in your OpenSolaris 2008.5 CD.

I'm hoping if enough people rant about this nonsense, we will shift
the situation. For now it seems to be in Sun's best interest to be
vague about what's open source and what's not because people see the
name `Open' in OpenSolaris and impatiently assume the whole thing is
open-source like most Linux CD's. We should have a more defensive
situation where their interest is better-served by being very detailed
and up-front about what's open and what isn't.

I haven't figured out an easy way to tell quickly which drivers are
free and which are not, even with great effort. Not only is an
overall method missing, but a stumbling method does not work well
because there are many decoy drivers which don't actually attach
except in circumstances other than yours. I need to find in the
source a few more tables, the PCI ID to kernel module name mapping,
and the kernel module name to build tree mapping. I don't know if
such files exist, or if the only way it's stored is through execution
of spaghetti Makefiles available through numerous scattered ``gates''.
Of course this won't help root out unfree ``frameworks'' either.

For non-driver pieces of the OS, this is something the package
management tool can do on Linux and BSD, albeit clumsily---you feed
object filenames to tools like rpm and pkg_info, and they slowly
awkwardly lead you back to the source code.

-8<-
zephiris:~$ pkg_info -E `which mutt`
/usr/local/bin/mutt: mutt-1.4.2.3
mutt-1.4.2.3tty-based e-mail client
zephiris:~$ pkg_info -P mutt-1.4.2.3
Information for inst:mutt-1.4.2.3

Pkgpath:
mail/mutt/stable

zephiris:~$ cd /usr/ports/mail/mutt/stable
zephiris:

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-24 Thread Brandon High

On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 3:41 AM, Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Or "Atom" maybe viable?

The atom CPU has pretty crappy performance. At 1.6 GHz performance is
somewhere between a 900MHz Celeron-M and 1.13 Pentium 3-M. It's also
single-core. It would probably work, but it could be CPU bound on
writes, especially if compression is enabled. If performance is
important, a cheap 2.3GHz dual core AMD and motherboard costs $95 vs.
a 1.6GHz Atom & motherboard for $75.

An embedded system using ZFS and the Atom could easily compete on
price and performance with something like the Infrant ReadyNAS. Being
able to increase the stripe width of raidz would help, too.

> - in the case 
> http://www.chenbro.com/corporatesite/products_detail.php?serno=100

Someone tried to use this case and posted about it. The hotswap
backplane in it didn't work so they had to modify the case to plug the
drives directly to the motherboard.
http://blog.flowbuzz.com/search/label/NAS

-B

-- 
Brandon High [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The good is the enemy of the best." - Nietzsche
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

PS: I scaled down to mini-ITX form factot because it seems that the 
http://www.chenbro.com/corporatesite/products_detail.php?serno=100 is the 
PERFECT case for the job!
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

Or this that seems a very very nice intel mb (4+ sata in a mini package!):
- http://www.intel.com/Products/Desktop/Motherboards/DG45FC/DG45FC-overview.htm

The same: could it be good (/best) for the purpose?
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-24 Thread Florin Iucha

On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 08:22:16AM -0400, Charles Menser wrote:
> Yes, I am vary happy with the M2A-VM.

You will need at least SNV_93 to use it in AHCI mode.

The northbridge gets quite hot, but that does not seem to be impairing
its performance.  I have the M2A-VM with an AMD 64 BE-2400 (45W) and
a Scythe Ninja Mini heat sink and the only fans that I have in the case
are the two side fans (the case is Antec NSK-2440).  Quiet as a mouse.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
  http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163


pgpUoATrg6Ykg.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-24 Thread Charles Menser

I installed it with snv_86 in IDE controller mode, and have since
upgraded ending up at snv_93.

Do you know what implications there are for using AHCI vs IDE modes?

Thanks,
Charles

On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:26 AM, Florin Iucha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 08:22:16AM -0400, Charles Menser wrote:
>> Yes, I am vary happy with the M2A-VM.
>
> You will need at least SNV_93 to use it in AHCI mode.
>
> The northbridge gets quite hot, but that does not seem to be impairing
> its performance.  I have the M2A-VM with an AMD 64 BE-2400 (45W) and
> a Scythe Ninja Mini heat sink and the only fans that I have in the case
> are the two side fans (the case is Antec NSK-2440).  Quiet as a mouse.
>
> florin
>
> --
> Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
>  http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
>
> ___
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
>
>
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-24 Thread Florin Iucha

On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:38:49AM -0400, Charles Menser wrote:
> I installed it with snv_86 in IDE controller mode, and have since
> upgraded ending up at snv_93.
> 
> Do you know what implications there are for using AHCI vs IDE modes?

I had the same question and Neal Pollack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> told
me that:

: For a built-in motherboard port, legacy mode is not really seen as
: much slower.  From my understanding, AHCI mainly adds (in theory)  NCQ
: and hotplug capability.  But hotplug means very little for a boot disk,
: and NCQ is a big joke, as I have not yet seen reproducible benchmarks
: that show any real measurable performance gain.  So I personally think
: legacy mode is fine for now.

I STFW for the topic and I got similar comments on hardware review
sites forums.

Best,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
  http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163

pgpyUMapwTXS0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-24 Thread Charles Menser

Yes, I am vary happy with the M2A-VM.

Charles

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thank you for all the replays!
> (and in the meantime I was just having a dinner! :-)
>
> To recap:
>
> tcook:
> you are right, in fact I'm thinking to have just 3/4 for now, without 
> anything else (no cd/dvd, no videocard, nothing else than mb and drives)
> the case will be the second choice, but I'll try to stick to micro ATX for 
> space reason
>
> Charles Menser:
> 4 is ok, so is the "ASUS M2A-VM" good?
>
> Matt Harrison:
> The post is superb (very compliment to Simon)! And in fact I was already on 
> that, but the MB is unfortunatly ATX. If it will be the only or the suggested 
> choice I would go for it, but I hope there will be a littler one
>
> bhigh:
> so the best is 780G?
>
>
> This message posted from opensolaris.org
> ___
> zfs-discuss mailing list
> zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
>
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

Or "Atom" maybe viable?
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

Following the VIA link and googling a bit I found something that seems 
interesting:
- MB: http://www.avmagazine.it/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108695
- in the case http://www.chenbro.com/corporatesite/products_detail.php?serno=100

Are they viable??
 
 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver

2008-07-24 Thread Brandon High

On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And interesting of booting from CF, but it seems is possible to boot from the 
> zraid and I would go for it!

It's not possible to boot from a raidz volume yet. You can only boot
from a single drive or a mirror.

-B

-- 
Brandon High [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The good is the enemy of the best." - Nietzsche
___
zfs-discuss mailing list
zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org
http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss

Re: [zfs-discuss] The best motherboard for a home ZFS fileserver