Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

i read the paper. i can believe there are still bugs, truth be told there are bugs in most software. all i can say is in my experience i have not hit any since the ephemeral snapshot fix. Honestly fosdil has been solid for me; i hope i have not just jinx’ed it :-) -Steve > On 15 May 2024,

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

noam said there's also some well-known issues with locks that still keeps happening in fossil. did you watch the outcome of last iwp9? he has the best description of the state of venti and fossil to date. On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 12:08 AM Steve Simon wrote: > > > Just a little first hand

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Just a little first hand experience - I have run a fossil and venti server for twenty years now. Fossil suffered three problems in my opinion: Firstly it was not well publicised that fossil was never designed to cope with overflow; the sad truth is it fails catastrophically, as whitenessed

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

about venti: probably nobody got around to removing it. send a patch. more seriously: i have no clue what might be wrong with venti, cause i haven't used it for decades. the papers for venti and fossil are nice btw, i have nothing against the concept, rather i'm all for it, in theory. On Wed,

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Factually, Fossil is no big deal. Its design shortcomings have been raised in the past from the Bell Labs side and the documentation (for Venti, I think, but it's not very important) suggests that Fossil was knocked together as a minimal Venti cache so the benefits of Venti could be utilised and

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 11:20, Don Bailey wrote: > > I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not even > demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing at the > code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite. It's asking > to demonstrate and

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:54:41PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote: > You handwave insults off by pretending like they aren't directed at the > exact person you're responding to :-) > > It's quite tiresome, and yet persistent. When else has it happened? Do I always do it? Are there firmware

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

You handwave insults off by pretending like they aren't directed at the exact person you're responding to :-) It's quite tiresome, and yet persistent. D On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:53 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:20:04PM -0400, Don Bailey

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:20:04PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote: > Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've > called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and brushing > them off as "emotional". What part of "not directed at you, Don" did you fail to

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Back to square one, are we lol On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:24 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote: > > The presumption you're making is based on the fact that it is easy /for > you/. > > That is correct. > > > A valid reason is, for those that don't know what Fossil is, and what to > understand the

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Thank you, I look forward to seeing your work then. On 5/15/24 11:21, Don Bailey wrote: > Sounds good. > > D > > > On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:19 PM Jacob Moody > wrote: > > On 5/15/24 10:56, Don Bailey wrote: > > Yeah but that's the thing... "explained in

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> The presumption you're making is based on the fact that it is easy /for you/. That is correct. > A valid reason is, for those that don't know what Fossil is, and what to > understand the history of 9fans decision making, there is no way to know that > decision was made, or why. A valid

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Sounds good. D On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:19 PM Jacob Moody wrote: > On 5/15/24 10:56, Don Bailey wrote: > > Yeah but that's the thing... "explained in this list" works while the > discussion is being had. But searching for that and attempting to grok the > discussion and the context of

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and brushing them off as "emotional". I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not even demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 10:57, hiro wrote: >> I don't understand the difference between code being included in the >> distribution and being "back in 9front". These are the same thing. If we >> ship code we maintain it. > > there are some exceptions :) I would like to see a list, that could should either

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 10:56, Don Bailey wrote: > Yeah but that's the thing... "explained in this list" works while the > discussion is being had. But searching for that and attempting to grok the > discussion and the context of discussion at a later date? Not so much. Some > centralized documentation

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

The presumption you're making is based on the fact that it is easy /for you/. A valid reason is, for those that don't know what Fossil is, and what to understand the history of 9fans decision making, there is no way to know that decision was made, or why. D On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:07 PM

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:53:28AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote: > It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember the > complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil? What > degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the > consistency of

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> In the commit messages is not sufficient, either. One still must search > through the commit messages and identify the branch/context/etc. Plus, you > have to /know/ about what you are looking for, if something was removed. A > separate document that outlines these removed/altered/added

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> I don't understand the difference between code being included in the > distribution and being "back in 9front". These are the same thing. If we ship > code we maintain it. there are some exceptions :) -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink:

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> This is part of the issue I've had with 9front. If there are valid reasons > for things to disappear or not be used, that's OK. But please document them > and provide rationale/evidence for their removal. and i agree that we should hold everybody to this standard. Preferably a big change like

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Yeah but that's the thing... "explained in this list" works while the discussion is being had. But searching for that and attempting to grok the discussion and the context of discussion at a later date? Not so much. Some centralized documentation should be used to make these decisions clear. In

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember the complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil? What degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the consistency of management/usage? What investigations have gone into those bits, as well.

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 10:20, Don Bailey wrote: > This is part of the issue I've had with 9front. If there are valid reasons > for things to disappear or not be used, that's OK. But please document them > and provide rationale/evidence for their removal. That way, even if another > group chooses not to

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:20:48AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote: > But please document them and provide rationale/evidence for their removal. You've been on this list a while. You should remember therefore that Fossil was a *constant* topic of debate here for *years*. Specifically, people

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> I suggested that the sources could be included in the distribution, so they > would not fork-rot as they are doing presently. It's always been the case > that the Plan 9 distribution included "broken" sources that could not be > compiled without external support, but were interesting enough

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 05:20:21PM GMT, sirjofri wrote: > > Agreeing is not necessary. There are many topics where we don't have to agree > to be a community. For example, I'd like to see libxml in 9front, but the > decision makers decided against it. More recently, people wished for fossil >

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 10:18, Lucio De Re wrote: > What makes you think I want Fossil back in 9front? I suggested that the > sources could be included in the distribution, so they would not fork-rot as > they are doing presently. I don't understand the difference between code being included in the

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

> That said, I have been excited by the developments in the 9front and 9legacy, > etc, groups, even if I don't fully agree with all the decision making. It at > least means people are still interested in building, and that's a good > start... to agree with the decision making it helps to be

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

This is part of the issue I've had with 9front. If there are valid reasons for things to disappear or not be used, that's OK. But please document them and provide rationale/evidence for their removal. That way, even if another group chooses not to remove those items, they can learn from other

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

15.05.2024 17:04:56 Don Bailey : > Yeah that's the thing, the few of us that have been around for 20 years > enjoyed the discussion as much as the engineering. But the discussion was > always around what to/not to do and how to do it. I was probably the biggest > outsider, as my career prior to

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On 5/15/24 09:18, Don Bailey wrote: > This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem that > Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always understood Vic's > choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at certain entities... > and provided him

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

What makes you think I want Fossil back in 9front? I suggested that the sources could be included in the distribution, so they would not fork-rot as they are doing presently. It's always been the case that the Plan 9 distribution included "broken" sources that could not be compiled without

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

Yeah that's the thing, the few of us that have been around for 20 years enjoyed the discussion as much as the engineering. But the discussion was always around what to/not to do and how to do it. I was probably the biggest outsider, as my career prior to diving into Plan 9 was classical violin. I

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

15.05.2024 16:18:49 Don Bailey : > This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem that > Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always understood Vic's > choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at certain entities... > and provided him with

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > Sadly, I don't have what it takes to bridge the gap. I think that my > idea of mending the communities is too grand. Also, I'm saddened > to see the more I try to help the worse the situation becomes. The communities are mending more or less fine, at least

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 04:02, Lucio De Re wrote: > I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the consequences of > omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it leads to undesirable > divisions. I'm just trying to correct the misinformation you stated. When you call the decision

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem that Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always understood Vic's choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at certain entities... and provided him with security information I hoped was relevant to

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 17:38, sirjofri wrote: > Hey vic, ... > Write your mails. Write them, don't send them. Read them again > carefully and think about the people reading it. They most likely > understand as much as you, and they have all the track record of > earlier discussions, so they

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 22:18, Wes Kussmaul wrote: > Fromm Crunchbase: > > Nantahala Outdoor Center — Nantahala Outdoor Center is a sports company > offering whitewater rafting, mountain biking, and flatwater paddling. > > Nantahala Bank & Trust Company — Nantahala Bank & Trust Company is a

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Quoth Lucio De Re : > I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the consequences > of omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it leads to > undesirable divisions. Yes, in theory it would have been nice if we had people who had volunteered to maintain it.

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > A better solution might be to inform others on how to interface with > each community. For example, providing clear instructions on how to > submit feature and bug requests. This is something I haven’t seen > mentioned recently. It would be beneficial for each

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Fromm Crunchbase: Nantahala Outdoor Center — Nantahala Outdoor Center is a sports company offering whitewater rafting, mountain biking, and flatwater paddling. Nantahala Bank & Trust Company — Nantahala Bank & Trust Company is a financial service company offering & lending mortgages and

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 19:35, hiro wrote: > it's not much of a degree if they don't require you to read Strunk & White Sure, I'll show you an example. It was one of the best scholarships available. You should have seen my writing before. ;-) Uriel admired Strunk & White. Today, many colleges

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

it's not much of a degree if they don't require you to read Strunk & White On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:18 AM wrote: > > On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 16:39, pl...@room3420.net wrote: > > It doesn't. I don't know if you're a troll or just not clever enough to > > understand that you make everybody

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

15.05.2024 11:17:46 vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > Not everyone here is uncomfortable, but like you, I'm disappointed in how > interactions have turned out, so we have that in common. I respond to > empirical evidence, so I mentioned the concern about submitting feature and > bug requests because

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 14:48, John the Scott wrote: > finding nothing on google for Nantahala. any links? > > -john Yes, that is by design. Working with a small number of clients is preferred. https://nantahala.systems is the site that mentions Plan 9. It deals with the hardware and

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

>On Wed, 15 May 2024 10:38:53 +0200 (GMT+02:00) >sirjofri wrote: > > Hey vic, > > There are a few different issues I see with your mails: > Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones > organizing. Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their > stuff without any

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 16:39, pl...@room3420.net wrote: > It doesn't. I don't know if you're a troll or just not clever enough to > understand that you make everybody uncomfortable. > Hope this helps. Well, I am disappointed that you feel that way. I am definitely not a troll nor am I that

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the consequences of > omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it leads to undesirable > divisions. there's only one division, not in my control, between the people that actually run plan 9 (that includes 9front), and the

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the consequences of omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it leads to undesirable divisions. I do find it tiresome that you keep ascribing intentions to me that may well reflect precisely how YOU would feel and react in my

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

Hey vic, There are a few different issues I see with your mails: First and most obvious, they sound like they're generated by some LLM (playing captain obvious here). People don't like to see this, it might be related to some language barrier. That impression is also supported by the content.

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

It doesn't. I don't know if you're a troll or just not clever enough to understand that you make everybody uncomfortable. Hope this helps. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Mcc1cdcca2cec06e6edd2ec2a

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 15:11, Jacob Moody wrote: > At this point I can't really tell if you're using some LLM to be ironic > or if you actually think this junk > is of any substance. I am not sure how you don't see this copy pasta > garbage as anything else than a waste > of everyone else's

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

At this point I can't really tell if you're using some LLM to be ironic or if you actually think this junk is of any substance. I am not sure how you don't see this copy pasta garbage as anything else than a waste of everyone else's inbox and time. On 5/15/24 00:55, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/14/24 23:46, Lucio De Re wrote: > If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your interpretation > that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy learning, at our > country's expense. > > I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me