Re: Clojure as first language

Thanks for the tip! On Saturday, October 3, 2020 at 1:20:17 AM UTC+3 markus...@gmail.com wrote: > Concering your quote "my interest in programming is not limited to data > science/ML...I am potentially interested in building apps": my repository > https://github.com/kloimhardt/bb-web has a

Re: Clojure as first language

Concering your quote "my interest in programming is not limited to data science/ML...I am potentially interested in building apps": my repository https://github.com/kloimhardt/bb-web has a set of examples, starting with a 10 line html file (directly containing Clojure code to be edited, no

Re: Clojure as first language

Thank you for your insight! On Tuesday, September 29, 2020 at 1:46:22 AM UTC+3 Nando Breiter wrote: > As someone who has known about Clojure for a long time but only recently > started programming in it, Clojure seems particularly easier to learn by > building something with it, as opposed to

Re: Clojure as first language

Thanks Nando Breiter, this site https://practicalli.github.io/ is a good start to the clojure Em segunda-feira, 28 de setembro de 2020 às 19:46:22 UTC-3, Nando Breiter escreveu: > As someone who has known about Clojure for a long time but only recently > started programming in it,

Re: Clojure as first language

As someone who has known about Clojure for a long time but only recently started programming in it, Clojure seems particularly easier to learn by building something with it, as opposed to reading about it. Perhaps this is because the language, ecosystem, and indeed the general approach to

Re: Clojure as first language

Great, Thanks! On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 11:23:49 PM UTC+3 ch...@techascent.com wrote: > Oh, well then I don't see what you are waiting for :-). > > Here are some interesting and more stats-focused libraries that may be > interesting to you - > > * kixi stats

Re: Clojure as first language

Oh, well then I don't see what you are waiting for :-). Here are some interesting and more stats-focused libraries that may be interesting to you - * kixi stats - Clojury statistics - written by Henry Gardner, the author of the aforementioned Clojure For

Re: Clojure as first language

Hi Chris, Thanks! I will check out the mentioned resources. Just to be clear, the only language I know well is Stata. I am still a very new to python, so I don't have any baggage to take with me as I have not invested enough time. Given I am philosophically convinced of the long term benefits of

Re: Clojure as first language

There are hybrid options available in the form of https://github.com/clj-python/libpython-clj -- I am one of the primary authors of this tool. One pathway perhaps is to use clojure to do your scraping and orchestration (and frontend display) and just use python from command line scripts to do

Re: Clojure as first language

Got it. Thanks again for your time! On Monday, September 28, 2020 at 8:05:32 PM UTC+3 Gary Trakhman wrote: > Not only the language and the techniques you intend to apply, but the > larger language and library ecosystem. For most people, Clojure is best > used when you > have familiarity with

Re: Clojure as first language

Not only the language and the techniques you intend to apply, but the larger language and library ecosystem. For most people, Clojure is best used when you have familiarity with the JVM and existing java core libraries and 3rd-party libraries, and some IDE/editor environment with enough features

Re: Clojure as first language

Thank you for your insight. By " learning more than one thing at a time", do you mean data science/ML and the language itself? If so, then I want to clarify, I have a solid foundation in data science; I am trained in the most advanced topics in econometrics (Statistics). My apprehension is mainly

Re: Clojure as first language

Clojure is a fine language to learn on, but there are going to be some complex details along the way. I think there are 2 approaches to entry into programming that you might consider. You can start with the basic fundamentals of computation and work up into software engineering. For that, clojure

Clojure as first language

I am new to programming. I have started to learn C++ and even some python My background is Economics. I have strong quantitative background (Math and Econ) and I know STATA. In general, I would like to use programming (1) for ML/AI in economics topics+other utilities such as webcraping, and

Re: Clojure as first language

Thinking about this a little more, it seems to me that the real beginner-unfriendly bits of clojure that actually are a problem for basic learning (so not legitimately difficult stuff like quoting and macros) all come from the JVM. Errors that are incomprehensible? JVM. Classpath confusion?

Re: Clojure as first language

For many years, MIT taught engineers the Scheme dialect of Lisp as a first language (see: The Wizard Book.) They appear to have moved to Python to get wider access to libraries and infrastructure. I was discussing with a friend recently what would have happened if Clojure had arrived in time.

Re: Clojure as first language

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 11:12 AM, gvim wrote: > Better to get a foundation in Javascript, Python/Ruby and Java first then > add Clojure later. > Disagree. It's easier to go from functional programming to imperative programming than vice versa, so it is better to teach

Re: Clojure as first language

On 21/02/2016 10:45, Terje Dahl wrote: I believe that the simplicity of Clojure's syntax in combination with its clean functional nature and prefix notation makes it ideal as a "first language" for anyone who wants to start programming - including, and perhaps especially kids. Is there anything

Re: Clojure as first language

one word: redstone. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this

Re: Clojure as first language

> On Mar 17, 2016, at 11:10 AM, blake watson wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Lee Spector wrote: > > > Is "lein new app foo" that complicated? > > If I understand Paul correctly—and am not just imposing my own similar > feelings on

Re: Clojure as first language

On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Lee Spector wrote: > Is "lein new app foo" that complicated? If I understand Paul correctly—and am not just imposing my own similar feelings on him—the problem is not that "lein new app foo" is complicated, it's that it creates a

Re: Clojure as first language

Have you come across any *new* programmers who think in terms of bit twiddling? I agree with Mark - this tends to be intuitive once you've learned that that is all there is. This might have been the case long ago when people started programming by learning about how CPUs work, but computers are so

Re: Clojure as first language

On Thursday, March 17, 2016 at 12:10:21 PM UTC-5, blake watson wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Lee Spector > wrote: > > > Is "lein new app foo" that complicated? > > If I understand Paul correctly—and am not just imposing my own similar > feelings on him—the

Re: Clojure as first language

Really depends on how the brain of the programmer is wired IMHO. To some people, the intuitive part of programming is fiddling with bits, to others it's all about abstraction. On Mar 17, 2016 9:32 PM, "Mark Engelberg" wrote: > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 11:12 AM, gvim

Re: Clojure as first language

On 17 March 2016 at 22:25, Colin Fleming wrote: > Have you come across any *new* programmers who think in terms of bit > twiddling? > I probably expressed my thoughts poorly - maybe 'bit twiddling' is not the right name for it, maybe it is place-oriented programming

Re: Clojure as first language

> On Mar 11, 2016, at 9:43 PM, Paul Gowder wrote: > > 2. The other big beginner barrier I feel is the tooling. In lots of ways, > leiningen is amazing (particularly the automatic grabbing of dependencies), > but the forced project structure is really painful. It feels

Re: Clojure as first language

As a clojure beginner and programming semi-beginner (advanced beginner? I'm decent but not pro dev level at Python and R and have messed around with a few others), switching to clojure because the functional style feels more natural than all that object ick, I can speak from personal experience

Re: Clojure as first language

Thank you all for your wonderful feedback. It is both insightful, varied, deep. I intend to consolidate your feedback and more into some sort of report or paper which I will then publish. I will post back when I have something ready. Terje -- You received this message because you are

Re: Clojure as first language

Hi Terje, Answers in line below: The turtle graphics concept is often used as a basic teaching tool. Logo, > Scratch, etc. > It seems easy to understand for children, and is a good way to get started. > > I have some additional questions to that, though: > How long before children get tired

Re: Clojure as first language

> On 1 Mar, 2016, at 22:54, blake watson > wrote: > > >>Would you elaborate on this last comment about Smalltalk? > > Smalltalk, as a language, is very simple. Its syntax is, essentially, "object > message" embellished with keyword

Re: Clojure as first language

>>Would you elaborate on this last comment about Smalltalk? Smalltalk, as a language, is very simple. Its syntax is, essentially, "object message" embellished with keyword parameters, like "player attack: monster with: sword using: slash". The environment, unfortunately, is cluttered, and its

Re: Clojure as first language

> On Feb 26, 2016, at 9:53 AM, Lee Spector wrote: > > But sometimes it does matter, e.g. (str '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)) => "(1 2 3 4 > 5 6 7 8 9 10)", whereas (str (map inc (range 10))) => > "clojure.lang.LazySeq@c5d38b66" There’s a bit of subtlety around `str` vs.

Re: Clojure as first language

Gary: I'm not sure that's actually what I meant, although I'm not 100% sure what you mean so I'm not sure :-). FWIW I *do* always want to introduce "code is data" to my beginners, albeit with eval, not macros, and I'm generally not on board with the whole concept of restricted teaching

Re: Clojure as first language

https://github.com/ClojureBridge/curriculum/blob/gh-pages/TEACHING.md On Friday, 26 February 2016 10:28:41 UTC+1, Terje Dahl wrote: > > Val. > > You (and others) mention Clojure Bridge. > I am familiar with the concept. > But do you know where I might find one or more compendiums or course >

Re: Clojure as first language

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 1:58 AM, blake watson wrote: > Clojure, in particular, has a weakness in its multi-page stack dumps, and export JVM_OPTS="-XX:MaxJavaStackTraceDepth=1" -Vardhan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Clojure as first language

On Friday, 26 February 2016, Terje Dahl wrote: > Lee. > > About the confusion with parens - do you mean that an output-ed list/seq > looks exactly like a callable s-expression? > Please elaborate. > > Terje > Yes. If you print the list (1 2 3) it prints as a callable form,

Re: Clojure as first language

Lee. About the confusion with parens - do you mean that an output-ed list/seq looks exactly like a callable s-expression? Please elaborate. Terje On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 5:23:42 PM UTC+1, Lee wrote: > > > One little feature of the core language itself that I find to be difficult >

Re: Clojure as first language

Val. You (and others) mention Clojure Bridge. I am familiar with the concept. But do you know where I might find one or more compendiums or course curriculums used as part of Clojure Bridge? Terje On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 12:45:52 PM UTC+1, Val Waeselynck wrote: > And of course,

Re: Clojure as first language

Elango. The turtle graphics concept is often used as a basic teaching tool. Logo, Scratch, etc. It seems easy to understand for children, and is a good way to get started. I have some additional questions to that, though: How long before children get tired (bored) with the concept? How would

Re: Clojure as first language

Michael. I what ways do the teaching languages in Racket differ from Clojure? What would *you* "hide" or change in Clojure to make a more suitable teaching language? Based on the Racket languages... Based on your experiences and/or opinions... Terje On Monday, February 22, 2016 at 8:55:13 AM

Re: Clojure as first language

Blake. Would you elaborate on this last comment about Smalltalk? What did you do? What was the outcome relative to expectations? What were some good and bad aspects of Smalltalk? And how might this compare to Clojure? Any links/references? Terje On Thursday, February 25, 2016 at 9:29:10 PM

Re: Clojure as first language

In a lot of ways, Clojure is a good first language: Except for project.clj files (which you don't absolutely need right off the bat), it's not too hard for a novice to look at a simple Clojure program and not see 40 things he doesn't understand. (I don't know if it's still like this, but the

Re: Clojure as first language

The post-Python effect came up briefly in another Conj talk -- in 2015 -- given by Elena Machkasova and two students, one of whom had had Clojure first and the other Python. Their school offered it either way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0yN1GauxCA -- You received this message because

Re: Clojure as first language

> I heard feedback about a guy who learned to program in Clojure and found > Python pretty messed up afterwards. If love to read this if you can dig up a link. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Clojure" group. To post to this group, send email to

Re: Clojure as first language

Zach Oakes gave a bracing talk about Clojure-as-a-first-language, unpedantically entitled "Making Games at Runtime with Clojure", at the 2014 Clojure conj. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GzzFeS5cMc -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "

Re: Clojure as first language

it would take a *lot* work to do all of the things that the PLT/Racket people have done, I think that we're already on the cusp of having sufficiently good Clojure environments for beginners. For me, I think we'll be over the threshold for teaching Clojure as a first language as soon

Re: Clojure as first language

Racket is a language that is explicitly designed for creating other languages. DrRacket is a remarkable pedagogical IDE. For those who are interested in providing a smooth learning path to Clojure, one of the best ways to do that would be for our community to invest some effort in building a

Re: Clojure as first language

In my experience running the local clojure user group, a lot of clojure beginners (NOT programming beginners) struggle with two things: the paradigm switch (immutable data etc) and clojure's error messages. I think if a beginner to programming started with clojure, they may be able to sidestep

Re: Clojure as first language

Terje Dahl writes: > I believe that the simplicity of Clojure's syntax in combination with its > clean functional nature and prefix notation makes it ideal as a "first > language" for anyone who wants to start programming - including, and > perhaps especially kids.

Re: Clojure as first language

I started teaching my 7 yo son programming in Clojure. I blogged about our first 2 sessions here: http://www.adomokos.com/2016/02/teaching-clojure-to-7-year-old.html Hope you'll find something useful in there. On Sunday, February 21, 2016 at 4:45:44 AM UTC-6, Terje Dahl wrote: > > I believe

Re: Clojure as first language

You should also look at clojure-turtle, which is a port of Logo into Clojure: https://github.com/google/clojure-turtle We often use Logo to teach kids how to program for the first time, and Logo is a Lisp (!). Logo has reinforced its relevance with Scratch, which is a GUI-based, less-textual

Re: Clojure as first language

Check out the presentation that Tommy Hall gave at EuroClojure: https://vimeo.com/100425264 >From slide 12 onward he describes his Clojure implementation of geomlab and how it can be used to teach children how to program -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google

Re: Clojure as first language

12:42:24 UTC+1, Val Waeselynck wrote: > I believe there was a Clojure programming environment released exactly for > this... but can't see to find it on Google. > > I too believe it is great for beginners, except for maybe 2 aspects: > if Clojure is your first language, the 2nd lan

Re: Clojure as first language

t; > I too believe it is great for beginners, except for maybe 2 aspects: > > - if Clojure is your first language, the 2nd language is likely to be >painful :) - I heard feedback about a guy who learned to program in > Clojure >and found Python pretty messed up aft

Re: Clojure as first language

I believe there was a Clojure programming environment released exactly for this... but can't see to find it on Google. I too believe it is great for beginners, except for maybe 2 aspects: - if Clojure is your first language, the 2nd language is likely to be painful :) - I heard feedback

Clojure as first language

I believe that the simplicity of Clojure's syntax in combination with its clean functional nature and prefix notation makes it ideal as a "first language" for anyone who wants to start programming - including, and perhaps especially kids. Is there anything written about this? Arguments ...