Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-26 Thread Erik Steffl
Karsten M. Self wrote: ... The problem isn't just vi, though. _Most_ Unix commands are based on mnemonic, consonant-heavy, abbreviations: ls, cd, rm, mv, ll, who, vi, ps, mutt, df Most of these are balanced between left and right hands, leading to good natural rhythems, many are based

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-26 Thread Ted Harding
On 26-Dec-01 Karsten M. Self wrote: The problem isn't just vi, though. _Most_ Unix commands are based on mnemonic, consonant-heavy, abbreviations: ls, cd, rm, mv, ll, who, vi, ps, mutt, df Most of these are balanced between left and right hands, leading to good natural rhythems, many

Re: Man deprecated, Info not there, -doc package? (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

2001-12-26 Thread Colin Watson
On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:26:56PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 08:07:40AM -0600, Colin Watson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: No, usually what's happened in these cases is that the man page is in the main package while the info pages are in a separate -doc package

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-26 Thread Colin Watson
On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:25:09PM -0500, David Teague wrote: I LIKE emacs. We were using vi as our only text editor with System V machines in the late 80s. I found and installed Emacs, within one week everyone on my faculty was using emacs. Given a 1980s-era vi, I'd probably have gone for

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-26 Thread dman
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 02:49:40PM -0600, Colin Watson wrote: | On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:25:09PM -0500, David Teague wrote: | I LIKE emacs. We were using vi as our only text editor with System V | machines in the late 80s. I found and installed Emacs, within one | week everyone on my faculty

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-26 Thread dman
On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:44:17AM +0100, Carel Fellinger wrote: ... I'm not sure where in the thread my comments belong so I'll put them here. | So what is it that makes you (and others) react so vehemently? I've tried to use info a few times, and it is always difficult. The keybindings are

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-26 Thread Erik Steffl
dman wrote: ... info2vim converter then I could be happy :-). If you don't already know : vim allows for hyper-links (start with :help) that can be followed with ^] and ^T takes you back where you were before. and for those who really didn't know: you can 'hyperlink' your code (at least c,

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-26 Thread John Hasler
I know that many GNU tools have nice HTML and PS/PDF documents available on gnu.org, and the TOC resembles what I've seen in 'info'. With good reason. Try 'apt-cache show texinfo'. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-26 Thread dman
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 04:38:07PM -0800, Erik Steffl wrote: | dman wrote: | ... | info2vim converter then I could be happy :-). If you don't already | know : vim allows for hyper-links (start with :help) that can be | followed with ^] and ^T takes you back where you were before. | | and

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:54:36AM -0200, Christoph Simon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:38:49 -0800 Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote: - It attempts to replace, not augment, an existing, established, viable, useful, and effective standard. This is

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Erik Steffl
Karsten M. Self wrote: on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:54:36AM -0200, Christoph Simon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: ... One of the declared aims of info is to provide a frame to write introductions or tutorials which wouldn't fit well into a man page, because that is limited to a reference

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:52:46AM -0800, Erik Steffl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Karsten M. Self wrote: on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:54:36AM -0200, Christoph Simon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: ... One of the declared aims of info is to provide a frame to write introductions or

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Colin Watson
On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:21:55AM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:54:36AM -0200, Christoph Simon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:38:49 -0800 Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote: ...followed by dire warnings that the manpage may not

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Anthony Campbell
On 24 Dec 2001, Gary Turner wrote: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:07:41 -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Martin Emrich ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Hi All ! When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM... I consider this acceptable only

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Brian Nelson
Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com writes: - It's (largely) bound to a specific viewer. Which, if you don't use emacs, isn't particularly usable, and is about as intuitive as...well, emacs. This has changed as additional viewers are avilable (e.g.: pinfo -- based on

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Michael Mauch
Karsten M. Self schrieb: on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:57:27PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: dman writes: Personally it is the emacs-centric interface. What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER? How about the fact that NPU have no

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread John Hasler
I wrote: What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER? Karsten M. Self writes: How about the fact that NPU have no relationship to your _own_ path through the documentation tree... What does that have to do with my question? ...as they would in, say, a web

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread David Teague
Karsten I LIKE emacs. We were using vi as our only text editor with System V machines in the late 80s. I found and installed Emacs, within one week everyone on my faculty was using emacs. That said, every other point you make here is RIGHT ON. I find info to be arcane, inspite of its keystrokes

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 10:06:38AM +, Anthony Campbell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On 24 Dec 2001, Gary Turner wrote: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:07:41 -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Martin Emrich ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Hi All ! When

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 07:18:08PM +0100, Michael Mauch ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Karsten M. Self schrieb: on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:57:27PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: dman writes: Personally it is the emacs-centric interface. What is emacs-centric about

The Info v. Man War of 2001 (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 01:07:23PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I wrote: What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER? Karsten M. Self writes: How about the fact that NPU have no relationship to your _own_ path through the documentation

Man deprecated, Info not there, -doc package? (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 08:07:40AM -0600, Colin Watson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:21:55AM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:54:36AM -0200, Christoph Simon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:38:49 -0800 Karsten M. Self

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 11:38:43AM -0500, Brian Nelson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com writes: - It's (largely) bound to a specific viewer. Which, if you don't use emacs, isn't particularly usable, and is about as intuitive as...well, emacs.

Re: The Info v. Man War of 2001 (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

2001-12-25 Thread Henrik Enberg
Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com writes: on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 01:07:23PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I thought you were a man page enthusiast. Now you want html documentation? IMHO html is a lousy choice. It's a well known standard. I know a lot of people

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Carel Fellinger
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:41:19PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:57:27PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: dman writes: Personally it is the emacs-centric interface. What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER?

Re: The Info v. Man War of 2001 (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 11:52:45PM +0100, Henrik Enberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com writes: on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 01:07:23PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I thought you were a man page enthusiast. Now you want html

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:01:43AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:41:19PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:57:27PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: dman writes: Personally it is the emacs-centric

Re: The Info v. Man War of 2001 (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

2001-12-25 Thread Bud Rogers
On Tuesday 25 December 2001 16:52 pm, Henrik Enberg wrote: But none of the current browsers I'm aware of has the index and searching facilities that info has. When I'm stuck with html documentation I'm always extremely annoyed about how hard it is to find what I'm looking for. Me too. And

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Carel Fellinger
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:38:49PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:44:17AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 03:07:41PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: ... I ***DESPISE*** info. The pinfo alternative helps somewhat, but the

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Carel Fellinger
On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 03:16:15PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:01:43AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: ... I see. So you're surprised by all those web pages that have next, and previous buttons too:) Previously addressed: there is a

Twin towers (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:40:46AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:38:49PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:44:17AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 03:07:41PM -0800, Karsten M.

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Wendell Cochran
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 15:25:09 -0500 (EST) From: David Teague [EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] Html information browsed with a decent TEXT mode browser that is intuitive (OK I know one man's intuitive is another's nightmare) . . . [snip] Off topic, drifting . . . . One of the greatest sins

Re: Twin towers (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

2001-12-25 Thread Carel Fellinger
On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 04:42:20PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 12:40:46AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: ... I was only surprised by the vehement nature of your dislikes, but I think I see. The main problem you and others have with info are:

Re: The Info v. Man War of 2001 (was Re: Where do you RTFM ?)

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 05:28:56PM -0600, Bud Rogers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Tuesday 25 December 2001 16:52 pm, Henrik Enberg wrote: But none of the current browsers I'm aware of has the index and searching facilities that info has. When I'm stuck with html documentation I'm always

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Brian Nelson
Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com writes: on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 11:38:43AM -0500, Brian Nelson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com writes: - It's (largely) bound to a specific viewer. Which, if you don't use emacs, isn't particularly usable,

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-25 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 10:55:10PM -0500, Brian Nelson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com writes: ... I don't dislike emacs keybindings per se (I find most legacy MS Windows- centric word processors unusable because I expect to find C-a, C-e, C-k, C-p, C-n,

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Alec
On Monday 24 December 2001 12:37 pm, Martin Emrich wrote: Hi All ! When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM... But where do I find the Information ? Very often, neiter #man foo nor the contents of the /usr/doc/foo are very helpful. Where is aditional documentation usually

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Lev Lvovsky
linuxdoc.org for whole documentation groups.deja.com for specific questions (this list posts to usenet as muc.lists.debian.user methinks) -lev On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Martin Emrich wrote: Hi All ! When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM... But where do I find the

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread yugami
www.linuxdoc.org www.linuxnewbie.org the documentation for various packages is on the website for those packages - Original Message - From: Martin Emrich [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: Where do you RTFM ? Hi All !

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Osamu Aoki
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Martin Emrich wrote: When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM... But where do I find the Information ? Very often, neiter #man foo nor the contents of the /usr/doc/foo are very helpful. Where is aditional documentation usually

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread dman
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Martin Emrich wrote: | Hi All ! | | When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM... | | But where do I find the Information ? Very often, neiter #man foo nor | the contents of the /usr/doc/foo are very helpful. Where is aditional |

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Brian Nelson
dman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Martin Emrich wrote: | Hi All ! | | When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM... | | But where do I find the Information ? Very often, neiter #man foo nor | the contents of the /usr/doc/foo are very

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Linda Laubenheimer
Alec wrote: Try typing info:/ into konqueror. This will give you something to read until 2003. Otherwise, RTFM is sometimes accompanied by DAFS (Do a f* search), which should be directing you to, say, http://groups.google.com/groups?group=comp.os.linux.misc with all google's search

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Martin Emrich ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Hi All ! When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM... I consider this acceptable only IITTNTRFMTFR [1] But where do I find the Information ? Very often, neiter #man foo nor the contents of

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Faheem Mitha
On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, yugami wrote: www.linuxdoc.org www.linuxnewbie.org Also http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/ (Debian-specific) Faheem.

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Jesse Goerz
On Monday 24 December 2001 12:37, Martin Emrich wrote: Hi All ! When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM... But where do I find the Information ? Very often, neiter #man foo nor the contents of the /usr/doc/foo are very helpful. Where is aditional documentation usually

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Gary Turner
On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 15:07:41 -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Martin Emrich ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Hi All ! When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM... I consider this acceptable only IITTNTRFMTFR [1] Thanks, Karsten. When I query

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Osamu Aoki
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 04:47:41PM -0500, Brian Nelson wrote: dman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 06:37:25PM +0100, Martin Emrich wrote: | When newbies ask something, they are often asked to RTFM... | | But where do I find the Information ? Very often, neiter #man foo

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Carel Fellinger
On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 03:07:41PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: ... I ***DESPISE*** info. The pinfo alternative helps somewhat, but the basic concept still sucks. It should be scrapped for a searchable format based on HTML, XHTML, or preferably something like DocBook capable of creating

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread dman
On Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:44:17AM +0100, Carel Fellinger wrote: | On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 03:07:41PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: | ... | I ***DESPISE*** info. The pinfo alternative helps somewhat, but the | basic concept still sucks. It should be scrapped for a searchable | format based on

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread John Hasler
dman writes: Personally it is the emacs-centric interface. What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER? I use both info and Emacs and don't find info Emacs-like at all when not run from inside Emacs. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood,

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Tue, Dec 25, 2001 at 02:44:17AM +0100, Carel Fellinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 03:07:41PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: ... I ***DESPISE*** info. The pinfo alternative helps somewhat, but the basic concept still sucks. It should be scrapped for a searchable

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Karsten M. Self
on Mon, Dec 24, 2001 at 08:57:27PM -0600, John Hasler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: dman writes: Personally it is the emacs-centric interface. What is emacs-centric about (N)ext, (P)revious, (U)p, (S)earch, and ENTER? How about the fact that NPU have no relationship to your _own_ path through

Re: Where do you RTFM ?

2001-12-24 Thread Christoph Simon
On Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:38:49 -0800 Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com wrote: - It attempts to replace, not augment, an existing, established, viable, useful, and effective standard. This is almost always a bad idea. The far better tack: provided augmented functionality. If