Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi Brent, How "long do we have to wait" of the "generations" to "run" when time isn't an allowed concept? In Platonia there is no time, therefore no arguments that imply the necessary existence of time are allowed. On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 1:40 AM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/27/2013 8:37 PM, St

Re: All randomness is quantum...

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:40 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Replying to Liz and Jason in a new topic as they raised the important > topic of the source of randomness that deserves a separate topic. > > As I explain in my book on Reality, all randomness is quantum. There > simply is no true classical

Re: All randomness is quantum...

On 28 December 2013 19:45, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/27/2013 8:52 PM, LizR wrote: > >> Assuming everything is quantum (as most physicists do) then clearly all >> randomness must be. >> > > But note that Bruno wants to avoid this by making first-person continuity > uncertain. > > Hmm. Not *exactly.

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:23 AM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > > On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Stephen Paul King < >> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> I wou

Re: What are wavefunctions?

On 28 December 2013 19:37, Jason Resch wrote: > On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 1:26 AM, LizR wrote: > >> On 28 December 2013 18:39, Jason Resch wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:28 PM, LizR wrote: >>> On 28 December 2013 16:26, Jason Resch wrote: > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:08

Re: All randomness is quantum...

On 12/27/2013 8:52 PM, LizR wrote: Assuming everything is quantum (as most physicists do) then clearly all randomness must be. But note that Bruno wants to avoid this by making first-person continuity uncertain. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 12/27/2013 8:37 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Why do "real world" computers use noise oracles, or their equivalent? Because for some problems it is quick and easy to check a proposed solution, but difficult to calculate one. So you generate proposed solutions at random until one of them che

Re: What are wavefunctions?

On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 1:26 AM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 18:39, Jason Resch wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:28 PM, LizR wrote: >> >>> On 28 December 2013 16:26, Jason Resch wrote: >>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jason, > > Ans

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 19:34, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/27/2013 8:32 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 28 December 2013 17:27, Jason Resch wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:13 PM, Stephen Paul King < >> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: >> >>> If it is Markov, the BB problem automatically follows. >>

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 12/27/2013 8:32 PM, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 17:27, Jason Resch > wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:13 PM, Stephen Paul King mailto:stephe...@provensecure.com>> wrote: If it is Markov, the BB problem automatically follows. "BB = Boltzmann

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Right. That is why the word "incontrovertible" is included. One's opinions and desires, etc. con't matter a hill of beans to what is necessarily true for come collection of (multiple!) observers. I also assume a version of the anthropic principle: An observer can only experience a "reality" that is

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 19:31, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Computed how? By what? > I know the answer to this one! To quote Brent -- "He proposes to dispense with any physical computation and have the UD exist via arithmetical realism as an abstract, immaterial computation." -- You received this mes

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 18:03, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Hi Jason, > > I would like to know the definition of "reality" that you are using here. > I quite like "whatever doesn't go away when you stop believing in it." -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: What are wavefunctions?

On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:43 AM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/27/2013 7:26 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> Answers to your 3 questions. >> >> 1. No. >> > > If there are no faster-than-light (FTL) influences, then how does

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 12/27/2013 8:24 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Edgar, But here is the thing. If we assume timelessness, Bruno is CORRECT! THe question then becomes: What is "time"? It's a computed partial ordering relation between events. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Computed how? By what? On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 1:30 AM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/27/2013 8:24 PM, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > Hi Edgar, > >But here is the thing. If we assume timelessness, Bruno is CORRECT! > THe question then becomes: What is "time"? > > > It's a computed partial orderin

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 12/27/2013 8:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Jason, Let me point out one fatal problem with Bruno's theory as you present it. According to you there is some single processor that runs all this UD stuff, but the truth is that in actual computational reality every logical element What is a "log

Re: What are wavefunctions?

On 28 December 2013 18:39, Jason Resch wrote: > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:28 PM, LizR wrote: > >> On 28 December 2013 16:26, Jason Resch wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >>> Jason, Answers to your 3 questions. 1. No. >>> >>> If

Re: What are wavefunctions?

On 12/27/2013 7:58 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Jason, All your questions assume a pre-existing space that doesn't actually exist. When it is recognized that space emerges from events rather than being a fixed background to them these questions disappear. E.g. in the EPR 'paradox' the opposite s

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi Brent, What is "executing" it? On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 1:13 AM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/27/2013 7:54 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 28 December 2013 16:44, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> "The first, second, 10th, 1,000,000th, and 10^100th, and 10^100^100th >> state of the UD's

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 12/27/2013 7:54 PM, LizR wrote: On 28 December 2013 16:44, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Hi Jason, "The first, second, 10th, 1,000,000th, and 10^100th, and 10^100^100th state of the UD's execution are mathematical facts ..." Umm, how? Godel and Ma

Re: What are wavefunctions?

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jason, > > All your questions assume a pre-existing space that doesn't actually > exist. When it is recognized that space emerges from events rather than > being a fixed background to them these questions disappear. > If the appearance of

Re: What are wavefunctions?

On 12/27/2013 7:26 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen > wrote: Jason, Answers to your 3 questions. 1. No. If there are no faster-than-light (FTL) influences, then how does your interpretation address the EPR parad

Re: What are wavefunctions?

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:28 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 16:26, Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >> >>> Jason, >>> >>> Answers to your 3 questions. >>> >>> 1. No. >>> >> >> If there are no faster-than-light (FTL) influences, then

Re: What are wavefunctions?

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jason, > > PS to answer your other question. In the double slit experiment there is > no pre-existing dimensional space for the electron to be in more than one > place in. > Then what is it interfering with if not itself? > Everything is

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi Jason, On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> I would like to know the definition of "reality" that you are using >> here. >> > > Reality I normally define

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > I would like to know the definition of "reality" that you are using > here. > Reality I normally define as "that which exists". > Here is mine: *That which is incontrovertible for some col

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi Jason, I would like to know the definition of "reality" that you are using here. Here is mine: *That which is incontrovertible for some collection of observers that can communicate*. This definition requires interactions and thus requires some form of primitive becoming. Platonia does not cha

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi LizR, > > This is fun! :-) We must remember that we are defining People as > intersections of infinitely many computations. Right? Their perceptions of > themselves as physical being having some particu

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

http://kauffman2013.wordpress.com/ :-) On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:51 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 17:47, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Loops are sometimes allowed as outputs of computations. :-) >> > > I think we came out one turn higher on the spiral staircase. > > -- > You receiv

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi LizR, This is fun! :-) We must remember that we are defining People as intersections of infinitely many computations. Right? Their perceptions of themselves as physical being having some particular set of configuration, for example bilateral symmetry, etc. is not really relevant to UDA. So, i

Re: What are wavefunctions?

Craig, Yes, I'm proposing that spacetime emerges from quantum events. But your second question depends on this since if spacetime emerges from quantum events there can be no physical space since physical space is exactly what we agreed doesn't exist until it emerges from quantum events which ar

Re: What are wavefunctions?

Most TOEs try to get space-time as emergent from something simpler. On 28 December 2013 17:43, Craig Weinberg wrote: > I also suspect that quantum makes spacetime rather than being phenomena > which take place in spacetime, if that's what you're proposing. I'm not > sure however that explaining

Re: All randomness is quantum...

Assuming everything is quantum (as most physicists do) then clearly all randomness must be. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+un

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:31 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Stephen Paul King < >> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> "It i

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:47, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Loops are sometimes allowed as outputs of computations. :-) > I think we came out one turn higher on the spiral staircase. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:47, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Yeah, it is! Its about how one computer's noise is another computer's > signal! > It throws SETI into a loop too. How can we detect encrypted signals from the stars? They'll look like noise! -- You received this message because you are subsc

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:46, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Ah, but they do degrade. Consider your ability to access a '80s floppy > drive's data. > > Well, that's because people haven't worked out how to do it perfectly. I agree digital archaeology is a real problem, but so would analogue be without th

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Loops are sometimes allowed as outputs of computations. :-) On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:46 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 17:45, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> That is the question, isn't it! >> >> I think this thread just disappeared into its own Ouroboros... > >> >> On Fri, Dec 27, 20

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:45, Stephen Paul King wrote: > That is the question, isn't it! > > I think this thread just disappeared into its own Ouroboros... > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:42 PM, LizR wrote: > >> On 28 December 2013 17:38, Stephen Paul King >> wrote: >> >>> "Anything that emulates a

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Yeah, it is! Its about how one computer's noise is another computer's signal! On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:45 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 17:44, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> I have studied encryptions. My mind is still recovering from reading the >> Stay and Vicary paper! (It shows

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Ah, but they do degrade. Consider your ability to access a '80s floppy drive's data. On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:44 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 17:41, Jason Resch wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:27 PM, Stephen Paul King < >> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi LizR and

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

That is the question, isn't it! On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:42 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 17:38, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> "Anything that emulates a Turing machine to sufficient accuracy (i.e. >> can expand its tape as necessary)." How is this determined without actually >> run

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:44, Stephen Paul King wrote: > I have studied encryptions. My mind is still recovering from reading the > Stay and Vicary paper! (It shows an equivalence in principle between one > time pad encryptions and quantum teleportation protocols...) > I read up on encryption once.

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

I have studied encryptions. My mind is still recovering from reading the Stay and Vicary paper! (It shows an equivalence in principle between one time pad encryptions and quantum teleportation protocols...) On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:42 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 17:37, Stephen Paul

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:43, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Liz, > > Then how about answering my simple questions if you understand UD so well? > Who said I understand the UD so well? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe fr

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:41, Jason Resch wrote: > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:27 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Hi LizR and Jason, >> >> Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism >> is "random noise" is necessary for the computations.

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Liz, Then how about answering my simple questions if you understand UD so well? Edgar On Friday, December 27, 2013 11:23:45 PM UTC-5, Liz R wrote: > > On 28 December 2013 17:19, Edgar L. Owen >wrote: > >> Stephen, >> >> Even worse, and less applicable to reality if it's really true, but Jason >

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Are we confusing the "real thing" with the Platonic? On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:27 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Hi LizR and Jason, >> >> Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of

Re: What are wavefunctions?

I also suspect that quantum makes spacetime rather than being phenomena which take place in spacetime, if that's what you're proposing. I'm not sure however that explaining physical space as information space is ultimately an improvement. Without linking either one to awareness, the result is s

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:38, Stephen Paul King wrote: > "Anything that emulates a Turing machine to sufficient accuracy (i.e. can > expand its tape as necessary)." How is this determined without actually > running the computation on a physical machine? > How is what determined? -- You received th

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:37, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Why do "real world" computers use noise oracles, or their equivalent? > Do they? I think you're thinking of real world *programmes*, ones that need to simulate randomness - e.g. for games, or to generate encryption keys. -- You received thi

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Hi LizR, > > the relative time (as perceived by some imaginary third party) is > irrelevant. SO long as the interactions are synchronized correctly, lag is > irrelevant. Time is a measure of change of one element in a sequence to > another, t

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:27 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi LizR and Jason, > > Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism > is "random noise" is necessary for the computations. Turing machines > require exact pre-specifiability. Addi

All randomness is quantum...

Replying to Liz and Jason in a new topic as they raised the important topic of the source of randomness that deserves a separate topic. As I explain in my book on Reality, all randomness is quantum. There simply is no true classical level randomness. There is plenty of non-computability which i

Re: Metaphor, Electricity, Sun and Moon…

On 28 December 2013 17:34, Craig Weinberg wrote: > It could be said that the electric force, figuratively if not literally > (but maybe literally, given a rehabilitated view of physics), creates time. > It is *the animation of circuitry.* Electricity is algebraic and logical > as it arcs from vec

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

The temporal re-parametrization is irrelevant here. What matters is whether it is "live" or "memorex"... On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:37 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > >> Jason, >> >> You might be able to theoretically simulate it but cert

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

"Anything that emulates a Turing machine to sufficient accuracy (i.e. can expand its tape as necessary)." How is this determined without actually running the computation on a physical machine? On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:33 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 17:31, Stephen Paul King > wrote:

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Why do "real world" computers use noise oracles, or their equivalent? On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:31 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 17:27, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Hi LizR and Jason, >> >> Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism >> is "random noise

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jason, > > You might be able to theoretically simulate it but certainly not compute > it in real time which is what reality actually does which is my point. > > It would seem exactly the same to you whether reality were computed in real tim

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi LizR, the relative time (as perceived by some imaginary third party) is irrelevant. SO long as the interactions are synchronized correctly, lag is irrelevant. Time is a measure of change of one element in a sequence to another, the duration of the sequence is not relevant here unless we are c

Metaphor, Electricity, Sun and Moon…

A post from today... If you had walked up to someone living in prehistoric times and had a conversation about the Sun and the Moon, it would probably be an easy way of talking about the concept of opposites. It’s an embodied metaphor which is almost absurdly plain. The Sun, a featureless disk

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

This "low measure", how is its "lowness" determined? What is doing the comparing operation? On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:27 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:13 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> If it is Markov, the BB problem automatically

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:31, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Hi Jason, > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Stephen Paul King < >> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> "It is not a question of whether or not that binary s

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi Jason, On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> "It is not a question of whether or not that binary string refers to >> anything that is true or not, only wha

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:27, Jason Resch wrote: > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:13 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> If it is Markov, the BB problem automatically follows. >> >> "BB = Boltzmann Brains" ? > Yes. > > What is the problem? BB's exist in the UD, as we dis

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:27, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Hi LizR and Jason, > > Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism > is "random noise" is necessary for the computations. Turing machines > require exact pre-specifiability. Adding noise oracles is cheating! > Who

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Stephen, > > Even worse, and less applicable to reality if it's really true, but Jason > is clearly talking about sequences of computations, and befores and afters. > How can sequences occur if there's no time? > The sequence is defined na

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:23, Jason Resch wrote: > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> "It is not a question of whether or not that binary string refers to >> anything that is true or not, only what its particular value ha

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi LizR and Jason, Responding to both of you. I don't understand the claim of determinism is "random noise" is necessary for the computations. Turing machines require exact pre-specifiability. Adding noise oracles is cheating! On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:22 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 20

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:23, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jason, > > You might be able to theoretically simulate it but certainly not compute > it in real time which is what reality actually does which is my point. > > "In real time" ?! In comp (and many TOEs) time is emergent. To take a parallel example

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:13 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > If it is Markov, the BB problem automatically follows. > > > "BB = Boltzmann Brains" ? What is the problem? BB's exist in the UD, as we discussed above, but they seem like they would have a low measure com

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:01 PM, Stephen Paul King < >> stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: >> >>> How do we distinguish a p

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi Edgar, But here is the thing. If we assume timelessness, Bruno is CORRECT! THe question then becomes: What is "time"? On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Stephen, > > Even worse, and less applicable to reality if it's really true, but Jason > is clearly talking about

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:19, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Stephen, > > Even worse, and less applicable to reality if it's really true, but Jason > is clearly talking about sequences of computations, and befores and afters. > How can sequences occur if there's no time? And how does time arise? > This is

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > "It is not a question of whether or not that binary string refers to > anything that is true or not, only what its particular value happens to > be." No no no! We can not make statements with

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Jason, You might be able to theoretically simulate it but certainly not compute it in real time which is what reality actually does which is my point. Edgar On Friday, December 27, 2013 11:19:17 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen > > wrote: > >> J

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 17:15, Jason Resch wrote: > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:06 PM, LizR wrote: > >> Clearly programmes don't have to be deterministic. They could contain a >> source of genuine randomness, in principle. >> > > That source, if it is within the program, would necessarily be > determ

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jason, > > Let me point out one fatal problem with Bruno's theory as you present it. > > According to you there is some single processor that runs all this UD > stuff, but the truth is that in actual computational reality every logical > el

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Stephen, Even worse, and less applicable to reality if it's really true, but Jason is clearly talking about sequences of computations, and befores and afters. How can sequences occur if there's no time? And how does time arise? Seems awfully unrealistic to me Edgar On Friday, December 27

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:06 PM, LizR wrote: > Clearly programmes don't have to be deterministic. They could contain a > source of genuine randomness, in principle. > That source, if it is within the program, would necessarily be deterministic. If it is external to the program, then it is more

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

If it is Markov, the BB problem automatically follows. On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > It is Markov... OK. > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Stephen

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi Jason, It is Markov... OK. On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:10 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Hi jason, >> >> Do programs have to be "deterministic". What definition of >> deterministic are you usi

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi Jason, On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:01 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> How do we distinguish a program from a string of random numbers. >> (Consider OTP encryptions). >> >> >> > By "we" do you mean t

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Dear Edgar, In Bruno's Platonia there is no such thing as "time" so we can not make arguments involving "cycles of time". All just "exists". On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jason, > > Let me point out one fatal problem with Bruno's theory as you present it. > > Accor

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi jason, > > Do programs have to be "deterministic". What definition of deterministic > are you using? > > All Turing-equivalent computation is deterministic. By deterministic I mean the (N+1)th state of

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi Jason, "It is not a question of whether or not that binary string refers to anything that is true or not, only what its particular value happens to be." No no no! We can not make statements without showing how their proof are accessible! Consider the i-th through j_th values of pi's expansio

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Jason, Let me point out one fatal problem with Bruno's theory as you present it. According to you there is some single processor that runs all this UD stuff, but the truth is that in actual computational reality every logical element functions as a processor so all computations proceed at once

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:01 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > How do we distinguish a program from a string of random numbers. (Consider > OTP encryptions). > > > By "we" do you mean the UD or something else? Jason > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Jason Resch w

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:44 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > "The first, second, 10th, 1,000,000th, and 10^100th, and 10^100^100th > state of the UD's execution are mathematical facts ..." Umm, how? Godel > and Matiyasevich would disagree! If there does

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Clearly programmes don't have to be deterministic. They could contain a source of genuine randomness, in principle. I don't think the UD does, however. The definition of deterministic would be - gives the same output on each run (given that the UD has no input). On 28 December 2013 17:03, Step

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

I ask this because I am studying Carl Hewitt's Actor Model... On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi jason, > > Do programs have to be "deterministic". What definition of deterministic > are you using? > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:00 P

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Hi jason, Do programs have to be "deterministic". What definition of deterministic are you using? On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:00 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:54 PM, LizR wrote: > >> On 28 December 2013 16:44, Stephen Paul King >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>>

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

How do we distinguish a program from a string of random numbers. (Consider OTP encryptions). On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> "Any program, and whether or

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:54 PM, LizR wrote: > On 28 December 2013 16:44, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Hi Jason, >> >> "The first, second, 10th, 1,000,000th, and 10^100th, and 10^100^100th >> state of the UD's execution are mathematical facts ..." Umm, how? Godel >> and Matiyasevich would di

Re: What are wavefunctions?

Jason, All your questions assume a pre-existing space that doesn't actually exist. When it is recognized that space emerges from events rather than being a fixed background to them these questions disappear. E.g. in the EPR 'paradox' the opposite spin relationship of the two particles is fixed

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > "Any program, and whether or not it ever terminates can be translated to > a statement concerning numbers in arithmetic. Thus mathematical truth > captures the facts concerning whether or not a

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On 28 December 2013 16:44, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Hi Jason, > > "The first, second, 10th, 1,000,000th, and 10^100th, and 10^100^100th > state of the UD's execution are mathematical facts ..." Umm, how? Godel > and Matiyasevich would disagree! If there does not exist a program that can > evalua

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

Cool! On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:39 PM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Dear Jason, >> >> ISTM that the line " For each program we have generated that has not >> halted, execute one instruction of it fo

Re: Bruno's mathematical reality

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:39 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Dear Jason, > > ISTM that the line " For each program we have generated that has not > halted, execute one instruction of it for each (Program p in > listOfPrograms)" is buggy. > > It assumes that the spac

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