Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

uot; and become effectual zombies. This may have occurred at least once before I have heard?  -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, Apr 14, 2021 6:22 am Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability) On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, &#x

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

> On 14 Apr 2021, at 20:41, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 4/14/2021 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> That would be of some interest but

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

rrect. We might be able to know what is like to be a bat, but we can never be sure that it is “correct”. We can know, but we cannot know-for-sure. Bruno > > > -Original Message- > From: John Clark > To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > Sent: Mon, Apr

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

> On 12 Apr 2021, at 18:35, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:35 AM John Clark > wrote: > On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:27 AM Jason Resch > wrote: > > > while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On 4/14/2021 12:36 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 1:41 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 4/14/2021 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List mailto:eve

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 1:41 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 4/14/2021 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > That would be of some i

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On 4/14/2021 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Apr 2021, at 20:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: That would be of some interest but I think it would fail to communicate what it is like to be a bat because of the inability to act as

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

;s not do that! >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Jason Resch <mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com> >> To: Everything List >> <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2021 11:27 am >> Subject: Re: BATS (wa

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On 4/12/2021 11:17 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 1:12 PM John Clark > wrote: On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:35 PM Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote: /> An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of mi

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

Clark To: 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List Sent: Mon, Apr 12, 2021 3:25 pm Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability) On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:49 PM Jason Resch wrote:  > How do you know there can't be quale of what it's like to be John just as we {?} have

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:49 PM Jason Resch wrote: > *How do you know there can't be quale of what it's like to be John just > as we *{?} *have a quale of a pixel of red in our *{?} *visual field* > What's with this "we" business? I have a quale for what red is like in my visual field but I hav

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 1:30 PM John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:17 PM Jason Resch wrote: > > *> We have a vision sense that can know what it is like to see many >> different scenes. Why then, could a Jupiter brain, not have an >> others-mind-sense that can know what it is like to b

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 2:17 PM Jason Resch wrote: *> We have a vision sense that can know what it is like to see many > different scenes. Why then, could a Jupiter brain, not have an > others-mind-sense that can know what it is like to be many different minds?* Because we have no sense that ca

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 1:12 PM John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:35 PM Jason Resch wrote: > > *> An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of millions >> of connections. So despite our intelligence, our minds are no where near >> capable of understanding and comprehe

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:35 PM Jason Resch wrote: *> An ant brain has hundreds of thousands of neurons and tens of millions > of connections. So despite our intelligence, our minds are no where near > capable of understanding and comprehending all the structural > interrelationships present in

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:35 AM John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:27 AM Jason Resch wrote: > > > *while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can >> know what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of >> super-states of consciousness, perhaps possess

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:27 AM Jason Resch wrote: > *while I can't know what it's like to be a bat anymore than a bat can > know what it's like to be me, we can't rule out the existence of > super-states of consciousness, perhaps possessed by Jupiter brains, which > would be able to simultaneou

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

constitute torture, so let's not do that! -Original Message- From: Jason Resch To: Everything List Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2021 11:27 am Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability) On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 6:28 AM John Clark wrote: On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

to a Bat would likely constitute torture, so let's not do that! -Original Message- From: Jason Resch To: Everything List Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2021 11:27 am Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability) On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 6:28 AM John Clark <mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.co

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

let's not do that! -Original Message- From: Jason Resch To: Everything List Sent: Sat, Apr 10, 2021 11:27 am Subject: Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability) On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 6:28 AM John Clark wrote: On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch wrote: > They {b

Re: BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Sat, Apr 10, 2021, 6:28 AM John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch wrote: > > *> They {bats} could in some sense even feel the surfaces with such sonar: >> is the surface smooth or rough, hard or soft, etc. Sound reflects >> differently from different types of surfaces.

BATS (was:Qualia and communicability)

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 6:31 PM Jason Resch wrote: *> They {bats} could in some sense even feel the surfaces with such sonar: > is the surface smooth or rough, hard or soft, etc. Sound reflects > differently from different types of surfaces. * Yes. *> Would they feel these surface differences a

Re: Qualia and communicability

On 4/9/2021 3:31 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Apr 9, 2021, 4:23 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 4/9/2021 4:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 9 Apr 2021, at 02:40, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List mailto:everything

Re: Qualia and communicability

On Fri, Apr 9, 2021, 4:23 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 4/9/2021 4:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 9 Apr 2021, at 02:40, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > > On 4/8/2021 12:38 PM, Ja

Re: Qualia and communicability

On 4/9/2021 4:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 9 Apr 2021, at 02:40, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 4/8/2021 12:38 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Hi Telmo, Thank you for these links, they are very helpful in articulating the problem. I thi

Re: Qualia and communicability

> On 9 Apr 2021, at 02:40, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 4/8/2021 12:38 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> Hi Telmo, >> >> Thank you for these links, they are very helpful in articulating the >> problem. I think you are right about there being some connection between >> com

Re: Qualia and communicability

> On 8 Apr 2021, at 21:38, Jason Resch wrote: > > Hi Telmo, > > Thank you for these links, they are very helpful in articulating the problem. > I think you are right about there being some connection between communication > of qualia and the symbol grounding problem. > > I used to think ther

Re: Qualia and communicability

> On 8 Apr 2021, at 18:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > Hi Jason, > > I believe that you are alluding to what is known in Cognitive Science as the > "Symbol Grounding Problem": > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_grounding_problem > >

Re: Qualia and communicability

Hi Jason, I discover your post just now, sorry. > On 31 Mar 2021, at 17:58, Jason Resch wrote: > > I was thinking about what aspects of conscious experience are communicable > and which are not, and I realized all communication relies on some > pre-existing shared framework. OK. It presuppo

Re: Qualia and communicability

On 4/8/2021 12:38 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Hi Telmo, Thank you for these links, they are very helpful in articulating the problem. I think you are right about there being some connection between communication of qualia and the symbol grounding problem. I used to think there were two kinds of

Re: Qualia and communicability

Hi Telmo, Thank you for these links, they are very helpful in articulating the problem. I think you are right about there being some connection between communication of qualia and the symbol grounding problem. I used to think there were two kinds of knowledge: 1. Third-person sharable knowled

Re: Qualia and communicability

Hi Jason, I believe that you are alluding to what is known in Cognitive Science as the "Symbol Grounding Problem": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_grounding_problem My intuition goes in the same direction as yours, that of "procedural semantics". Furthermore, I am inclined to believe that

Qualia and communicability

I was thinking about what aspects of conscious experience are communicable and which are not, and I realized all communication relies on some pre-existing shared framework. It's not only things like "red" that are meaningless to someone whose never seen it, but likewise things like spatial extent

Re: Communicability

On 10 Nov 2012, at 21:49, meekerdb wrote: On 11/10/2012 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You take as a weakness of comp the fact that it reduce the mind- body problem to a body problem, but it is its main qualitative advantage, as it explains how and where the physical laws can come from,

Re: Communicability

On 10 Nov 2012, at 00:04, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/9/2012 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Nov 2012, at 00:01, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 10:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Nov 2012, at 14:45, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 6:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meeker

Re: Communicability

On 11/10/2012 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You take as a weakness of comp the fact that it reduce the mind-body problem to a body problem, but it is its main qualitative advantage, as it explains how and where the physical laws can come from, and this in a testable way, making comp scientific

Re: Communicability

On 09 Nov 2012, at 20:12, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/9/2012 11:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Nov 2012, at 21:47, Stephen P. King wrote: This is wrong and even the opposite of what I am arguing! I take the argument of comp and stop at step 8 and try to reconstruct a necess

Re: Communicability

King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-09, 13:33:28 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/9/2012 11:28 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Contingent ordering is what happens to perfection, given time. Because of entropy. But nobody knows why. Care to advance an explanation as t

Re: Communicability

hing-list Time: 2012-11-09, 13:32:23 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/9/2012 11:24 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Get a box of crackers with the crackers all lined perfectly up inside. No explanation at all is given as to how the cracker got to be "perfectly lined up&q

Re: Re: Communicability

especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-09, 13:33:28 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/9/2012 11:28 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen P. King > > Contingen

Re: Re: Communicability

rom: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-09, 13:32:23 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/9/2012 11:24 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen P. King > > Get a box of crackers with the crackers all lined perfectly up inside. No explanation at all is given as

Re: Communicability

On 11/9/2012 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Nov 2012, at 00:01, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 10:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Nov 2012, at 14:45, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 6:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb So how does Platonia's perfect necessary classes

Re: Communicability

On 11/9/2012 11:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Nov 2012, at 21:47, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 10:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Roger, That is exactly my question! How does Platonism show the contingent to be necessary? As far as I have found, it cannot show necessity of the

Re: Communicability

On 11/9/2012 11:36 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I fall back on my experiment with crackers. Nothing stays perfect if allowed to be free and time passes. Hi Roger, My problem is the assumption of an initial perfection. It is never explained! Boltzmann's theorem S = k ln(

Re: Communicability

On 11/9/2012 11:28 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Contingent ordering is what happens to perfection, given time. Because of entropy. But nobody knows why. Care to advance an explanation as to why? "Just because it has to be that way" is not an explanation. -- Onward! Steph

Re: Communicability

On 11/9/2012 11:24 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Get a box of crackers with the crackers all lined perfectly up inside. No explanation at all is given as to how the cracker got to be "perfectly lined up". ... Right. That's Platonia. Now invert the box and let the crackers

Re: Communicability

On 09 Nov 2012, at 00:01, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 10:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Nov 2012, at 14:45, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 6:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb So how does Platonia's perfect necessary classes restrain or contain this world of contingenc

Re: Re: Communicability

ist Time: 2012-11-09, 11:09:32 Subject: Re: Communicability On 08 Nov 2012, at 20:17, Stephen P. King wrote: > On 11/8/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> On 08 Nov 2012, at 14:42, Stephen P. King wrote: >> >>> On 11/8/2012 6:38 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >>

Re: Communicability

On 08 Nov 2012, at 21:47, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 10:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Roger, That is exactly my question! How does Platonism show the contingent to be necessary? As far as I have found, it cannot show necessity of the contingent. In the rush to define the perf

Re: Re: Communicability

ver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-08, 14:17:05 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/8/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 08 Nov 2012, at 14:42, Stephen P. King wrote: > >> On 11/8/2012 6:38 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >>> Hi Stephen P. King >>> >>> T

Re: Re: Communicability

tries/statphys-Boltzmann/ Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/9/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-08, 14:17:05 Subject: Re: Communicabi

Re: Re: Communicability

--- From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-08, 08:45:18 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/8/2012 6:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi meekerdb > > So how does Platonia's perfect necessary classes restrain or > contain this world of contingenc

Re: Re: Communicability

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/9/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-08, 08:42:12 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/8/2012 6:

Re: Communicability

On 08 Nov 2012, at 20:17, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Nov 2012, at 14:42, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 6:38 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King There are no accidents in Platonia. There are also perfect parabolas, because Platonia

Re: Re: Communicability

oody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-08, 08:34:19 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/8/2012 6:23 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen P. King > > Libertarians aren't weird. > They're e

Re: Communicability

On 11/8/2012 10:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Nov 2012, at 14:45, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 6:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb So how does Platonia's perfect necessary classes restrain or contain this world of contingency ? Or does it ? Hi Roger, That is exactly my

Re: Communicability

On 11/8/2012 10:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Roger, That is exactly my question! How does Platonism show the contingent to be necessary? As far as I have found, it cannot show necessity of the contingent. In the rush to define the perfect, all means to show the necessity of contingency w

Re: Communicability

On 11/8/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Nov 2012, at 14:42, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/8/2012 6:38 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King There are no accidents in Platonia. There are also perfect parabolas, because Platonia is the realm of necessary logic, of pure reason and

Re: Communicability

Time: 2012-11-07, 13:19:38 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/7/2012 5:52 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Again: we are still left without an explanation as to how the accidental coincidence of a Platonic Truth and an actual fact of the world occurs. Why do you write 'accidental'? Pla

Re: Communicability

near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 19:45:05 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/7/2012 1:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 11/7/2012 5:52 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Again: we are still left w

Re: Communicability

lough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/8/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 13:19:38 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/7/2012 5:52 AM, Stephen P. King wrote:

Re: Communicability

- Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 19:45:05 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/7/2012 1:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 11/7/2012 5:52 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Again: we are still left without an explanation as to how

Re: Communicability

rever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 19:38:28 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/7/2012 12:44 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Nov 2012, at 17:13, Stephen P.

Re: Communicability

rehend the real world. :_( Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/8/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 19:17:21 Subject: Re: Communicability O

Re: Re: Communicability

nt - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 13:19:38 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/7/2012 5:52 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Again: we are still left without an explanation as to how the accidental coincidence of a Platonic Truth and an actual fact of the world o

Re: Re: Communicability

- Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 19:45:05 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/7/2012 1:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 11/7/2012 5:52 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Again: we are still left without an explanatio

Re: Re: Communicability

Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 19:38:28 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/7/2012 12:44 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 07 Nov 2012, at 17:13, Stephen P. King wrote: > >> On 11/7/2012 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> Arithmetic explains why they are o

Re: Re: Communicability

n P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 19:17:21 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/7/2012 12:01 PM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen P. King > > Sounds reasonable. > > Being a conservative, however, I tend to adopt orthodox views > such as that of Leibn

Re: Communicability

On 08 Nov 2012, at 01:38, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/7/2012 12:44 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Nov 2012, at 17:13, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/7/2012 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Arithmetic explains why they are observers and how and why they make theories. Dear Bruno, This is a v

Re: Communicability

On 11/7/2012 1:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 11/7/2012 5:52 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Again: we are still left without an explanation as to how the accidental coincidence of a Platonic Truth and an actual fact of the world occurs. Why do you write 'accidental'? Platonia is our invention to desc

Re: Communicability

On 11/7/2012 12:44 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Nov 2012, at 17:13, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/7/2012 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Arithmetic explains why they are observers and how and why they make theories. Dear Bruno, This is a vacuous statement, IMHO. Absent the prior existence of

Re: Communicability

OK but only within limited domains. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 11:02:01 Subject: Re: Commu

Re: Communicability

Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 18:17:30 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/6/2012 11:11 AM, Roger Clough wrote: What happens if I mistake a statue of a beautiful woman for the real thing, thus turning, eg, a statue of pygmalion into an actual woman ? Or mistake fool's gold or gol

Re: Communicability

On 11/7/2012 5:52 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Again: we are still left without an explanation as to how the accidental coincidence of a Platonic Truth and an actual fact of the world occurs. Why do you write 'accidental'? Platonia is our invention to describe classes of facts by abstractin

Re: Communicability

On 07 Nov 2012, at 17:13, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/7/2012 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Arithmetic explains why they are observers and how and why they make theories. Dear Bruno, This is a vacuous statement, IMHO. Absent the prior existence of entities capable of counting there is no

Re: Communicability

On 11/7/2012 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Nov 2012, at 00:12, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/6/2012 11:01 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Even Berkeley had to admit that no forest, no whatever.. was foolishness and so said that in that case, God observed it. Get real. Hi R

Re: Re: Communicability

Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 11:02:01 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/7/2012 9:31 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Your criticism might be valid, but I never made the claim that Berkeley is sa

Re: Re: Communicability

Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 18:17:30 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/6/2012 11:11 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > What happens if I mistake a statue of a beautiful woman > for the real thing, thus turning,

Re: Communicability

On 11/7/2012 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Arithmetic explains why they are observers and how and why they make theories. Dear Bruno, This is a vacuous statement, IMHO. Absent the prior existence of entities capable of counting there is no such thing as Arithmetic. Your belief to the contrar

Re: Communicability

- From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 18:12:43 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/6/2012 11:01 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Even Berkeley had to admit that no forest, no whatever.. was foolishness and so said that in that case, God observed it.

Re: Communicability

t claiming that We are God? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 10:35:37 Subject: Re: Communicability

Re: Communicability

On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:02, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/6/2012 8:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 17:10, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 10:35 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Infallibility isn't involved. The typical textbook explanation for realism is, "if a t

Re: Re: Communicability

Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 18:12:43 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/6/2012 11:01

Re: Communicability

On 06 Nov 2012, at 16:57, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/6/2012 8:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 16:17, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 9:03 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Sirius was there before Paul was born. That position is called realism. Hi Roger,

Re: Communicability

On 11/7/2012 5:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2012, at 03:42, meekerdb wrote: On 11/5/2012 8:13 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Even with the Theaetetus’ definition of truth, which I find to be highly original and amazingly ingenious, we are still left without an explanation as to how

Re: Communicability

On 06 Nov 2012, at 03:42, meekerdb wrote: On 11/5/2012 8:13 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Even with the Theaetetus’ definition of truth, which I find to be highly original and amazingly ingenious, we are still left without an explanation as to how the accidental coincidence of a Platon

Re: Communicability

On 11/6/2012 11:17 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King So that by believing that God exists, He exists ? Or believing that 2 + 2 = 5 makes it so ? Do you understand what mutual consistency is? This is not rocket-surgery! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you a

Re: Communicability

On 11/6/2012 11:11 AM, Roger Clough wrote: What happens if I mistake a statue of a beautiful woman for the real thing, thus turning, eg, a statue of pygmalion into an actual woman ? Or mistake fool's gold or gold foiled chocolates for actual gold coins ? Does the world actually become cloudy i

Re: Communicability

On 11/6/2012 11:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King How about those that are deaf, dumb and blind ? They've never seen the moon for example. Hi Roger, Can they not feel the effects of the tide? Any interaction acts to define definiteness of properties. You need to think in big

Re: Communicability

." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 10:35:37 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/6/2012 4:56 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King OK, let me rephrase the question. If a tree falls in the forest with

Re: Re: Communicability

Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 11:16:51 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/6/2012 9:37 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Stephen, > > My new understanding of realism is that > according to it, what happens in this world is > not created by our minds, b

Re: Communicability

On 11/6/2012 9:37 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Stephen, My new understanding of realism is that according to it, what happens in this world is not created by our minds, but created by a higher power. It could have happened without us. Hi Roger, Sure, I would agree if we could be more precise.

Re: Re: Communicability

racts ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 11:02:49 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11

Re: Re: Communicability

Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 10:57:00 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/6/2012 8:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 05 Nov 2012, at 16:17, Stephen P. King wrote: > >> On 11/5/2012 9:03 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >>> Hi Stephen P. King &g

Re: Re: Communicability

eiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 10:35:37 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/6/2012 4:56 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Stephen P. King > > OK, let me rephrase the question. If a tree > falls in the forest with nobo

Re: Communicability

On 11/6/2012 8:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 17:10, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 10:35 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Infallibility isn't involved. The typical textbook explanation for realism is, "if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it

Re: Communicability

On 11/6/2012 8:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 16:17, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 9:03 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Sirius was there before Paul was born. That position is called realism. Hi Roger, What makes you so sure? Realism assumes infallibili

Re: Communicability

, rclo...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-05, 22:00:20 Subject: Re: Communicability On 11/5/2012 2:30 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi

Re: Re: Communicability

...@verizon.net 11/6/2012 "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-06, 08:29:30 Subject: Re: Communicability On 05 Nov 2012, at 17:10, Stephen P. King wro

Re: Communicability

On 05 Nov 2012, at 17:10, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 10:35 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Infallibility isn't involved. The typical textbook explanation for realism is, "if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, would it make a sound?" A realist (such a

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