Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 9:49 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: > Hi Greg, > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Greg Stein wrote: > > > There is nothing stopping the IPMC from designating certain Mentors as > > shepherds for their podlings. > > Having volunteers step forward as dedicated shepherds for i

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

Hi Greg, On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Greg Stein wrote: > There is nothing stopping the IPMC from designating certain Mentors as > shepherds for their podlings. Having volunteers step forward as dedicated shepherds for individual podlings would be helpful. On its own, though, it is not suf

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: >... > Time is on the side of those who think shepherd institution should die. It > would be better if it died quickly, vacating the report review mindspace > and > making way for Mentor commentary supplemented by reactive IPMC report > fe

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 4:30 AM, Ted Dunning wrote: > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:07 AM, Marvin Humphrey > wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:14 AM, Ted Dunning >> wrote: > I really don't have a problem with a report like that going out as long as > somebody can answer it. I answered it. Dave

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

1/‎23/‎2015 1:22 AM To: Incubator General<mailto:general@incubator.apache.org> Subject: Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.) On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: > The board do take on such an active task I'm not sure wha

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:07 AM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:14 AM, Ted Dunning > wrote: > > > If you would like to characterize shepherds as cross-cutting > > mentors-at-large, I wouldn't disagree. > > It's costly to produce such cross-cutting commentary. Because the pro

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: > The board do take on such an active task I'm not sure what you mean exactly - IMO board members do pay close attention to TLP reports (in more or less detail depending on our perception of the project's health), but we migh

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

ree Sent from my Windows Phone From: Marvin Humphrey<mailto:mar...@rectangular.com> Sent: ‎1/‎22/‎2015 11:08 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org<mailto:general@incubator.apache.org> Subject: Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, e

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 4:14 AM, Ted Dunning wrote: > If you would like to characterize shepherds as cross-cutting > mentors-at-large, I wouldn't disagree. It's costly to produce such cross-cutting commentary. Because the product ends up in the public report, it's risky to be candid -- recall t

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.) On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: > In the thread "Incubator report sign-off" I posted a mail at Mon 1/5/2015 > 4:34 PM, it has the following content (edited for brevity here)" Acknowledged. I apologize

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: > In the thread "Incubator report sign-off" I posted a mail at Mon 1/5/2015 > 4:34 PM, it has the following content (edited for brevity here)" Acknowledged. I apologize for mischaracterizing the effort that Board members such

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.) On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 7:18 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: > The board do take on such an active task. As someone who has been subscribed to board@apache for a long time and has

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 7:18 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: > The board do take on such an active task. As someone who has been subscribed to board@apache for a long time and has attended many monthly Board meetings, this catches me off guard. I will follow Board report commentary with a

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

The board do take on such an active task. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Niclas Hedhman<mailto:nic...@hedhman.org> Sent: ‎1/‎21/‎2015 11:08 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org<mailto:general@incubator.apache.org> Subject: Re: Next steps for vario

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

Niclas, I merely speak about what I experienced. My experience is that shepherds provided valuable help to me while I was acting as a mentor. This was (as I understand it) part of the expectation for shepherds. The board has never provided me specific help like this in mentoring. I don't think

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

Ted, doesn't that then suggest that the Board should do such an active task as well, since they "thus can spot common problems easily"? But they don't, possibly due to it doesn't scale. Their man on the field, the VP, is trusted to have a grip on the situation. Why doesn't IPMC trust that the mento

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 5:03 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: > > Statements like shepherds dilute mentor responsibility are false. A > shepherd > > provides a mechanism for the IPMC to review the Podling/Mentor > relationship. > > This is something the IPMC needs to do when voting to graduate a > podl

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

That is not what *I* do as a shepherd. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Marvin Humphrey<mailto:mar...@rectangular.com> Sent: ‎1/‎21/‎2015 7:10 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org<mailto:general@incubator.apache.org> Subject: Re: Next steps for vario

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: > We should not be focusing on who is/is not ticking a box on a report - it's > a red herring and therefore a distraction. > > We should be focusing on identifying and assisting podlings that are not in > receipt of adequate and a

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

osoft Open Technologies, Inc. A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation -Original Message- From: Marvin Humphrey [mailto:mar...@rectangular.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 2:04 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.) O

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Jan 21, 2015, at 2:03 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: > On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: >> Perhaps there are one or two good ideas in the proposals, but change does >> not need to be as jarring. > > I hope that the Incubator can make the best of those opportunities. > >> For

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

Benson, Alan- Starting a new project is not aggression; it's how we try things that should fail independently. I have no interest in participating, but if you believe that we should e.g., have a small, active, junior-varsity board responsible only for overseeing and guiding new projects: write a p

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: > Perhaps there are one or two good ideas in the proposals, but change does > not need to be as jarring. I hope that the Incubator can make the best of those opportunities. > For example the IPMC ought to confirm with > mentors if they are stil

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > >> On Jan 21, 2015, at 3:39 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 4:03 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz >> wrote: >>> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Chris Douglas wrote: On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Bertrand Delac

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

> On Jan 21, 2015, at 3:39 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 4:03 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz > wrote: >> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Chris Douglas wrote: >>> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz < >>> bdelacre...@apache.org > wrote: How is that dif

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 4:03 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Chris Douglas wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz < >> bdelacre...@apache.org > wrote: >>> How is that different from pruning the current IPMC membership by >>> removing inac

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Chris Douglas wrote: > On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz < > bdelacre...@apache.org > wrote: >> How is that different from pruning the current IPMC membership by >> removing inactive members? > > Doing *that* would be straightforward. Take the s

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

It may already be a “practice" but it is not part of the mentor-reboot proposal. Regards, Alan > On Jan 20, 2015, at 11:17 AM, Andrew Purtell wrote: > > I just experienced being placed on a naughty list in the last incubator > report because I was travelling for business and missed checking th

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

mmunity). Given these records are public I would prefer not to see this data in the minutes. Ross -Original Message- From: Andrew Purtell [mailto:apurt...@apache.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 11:18 AM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Next steps for various propo

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

I just experienced being placed on a naughty list in the last incubator report because I was travelling for business and missed checking the box for HTrace. It may not be on any specific proposal. It seems to already be in practice. On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 6:36 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > Can

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

ncubator General<mailto:general@incubator.apache.org> Subject: Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.) On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > ...Isn’t it obvious what the above and IncubatorV2 proposal are about? > Consolidating > lik

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Alan Cabrera wrote: > ...Under the above proposals, that necessarily messy, frustrating, > exhausting, process > of garnering consensus on the above thorny issues will not take place as > philosophically > compatible IPM v2 members turn out Apache projects that f

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

> On Jan 20, 2015, at 6:46 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz > wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Alan D. Cabrera >> wrote: >> ...Isn’t it obvious what the above and IncubatorV2 proposal are about? >> Consolidating >> like minded individuals into a new IPMC and shutting out the other >> in

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > ...Isn’t it obvious what the above and IncubatorV2 proposal are about? > Consolidating > like minded individuals into a new IPMC and shutting out the other > inconvenient > members until "they come to their senses” I don't buy that

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

Can you add your concerns to the end each of the wiki pages? I intend to update my proposal to clear up the apprehensions that you seem to have. You can then remove/amend your concerns from the wiki proposal. I will quickly state that “naughty lists” are not part of the mentor-reboot proposal.

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

> On Jan 19, 2015, at 11:57 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz > wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Chris Douglas wrote: >> ...So make a list of the IPMC members >> you believe should judge the other 90%, and submit a proposal to the >> board to start a new project. Fork the incubator > > H

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 11:43 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: > ...We should stop being abstract with blanket statements and we > should be looking at specifics... That was the idea behind https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/IncubatorIssues2013 (I don't think that's immutable BTW, I suppose whoever saw tha

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 1:37 AM, Chris Douglas wrote: > ...So make a list of the IPMC members > you believe should judge the other 90%, and submit a proposal to the > board to start a new project. Fork the incubator How is that different from pruning the current IPMC membership by removing in

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

++ -Original Message- From: Ted Dunning Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" Date: Monday, January 19, 2015 at 5:48 PM To: "general@incubator.apache.org" Subject: Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.) >On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Chris Douglas wrote: > submit a proposal to the > board to start a new project. Fork the incubator. > Hmm... That is the first interesting variation here.

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

I agree with Andrew. Creating a sub-board of the most vocal members of the IPMC distills its dysfunction. But this doesn't require consensus. The proposals focus on identifying the "true" members of the IPMC; clearly, the authors believe themselves to be among the elect. So make a list of the IPMC

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

I do not dispute anything written below nor do I intend this to be a last word, just a clarification. > I ​ n neither model are people powerless in any meaningful sense. I approached these proposals by putting myself in the shoes of a newcomer as best as I'm able (I've been PMC for years and PPMC

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

I'm in the odd situation of not particularly wanting to argue in favor of the proposal I wrote, yet finding it hard to resist the provocation of messages that appear, to me, to misunderstand it. So I'll restrict myself to the following, and I won't reply to any further dispute. Anyone else is welco

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

I think the cures are all problematic and might be worse than the disease. On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 1:47 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 8:48 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > > Hi! > > > > at this point we have had a few lively threads > > discussing three somewhat different

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Jan 19, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 8:48 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: >> Hi! >> >> at this point we have had a few lively threads >> discussing three somewhat different proposals: >> #1 mentor re-boot >> #2 pTLP >> #3 Ross's strawman http://s.apac

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: > Or we could just do it > > We debated plenty. Three proposals came out of it (two if you look at mine as > the strawman it was intended to be). As a matter of fact, while editing yours (sorry, I took the liberty) and leaving f

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 8:48 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > Hi! > > at this point we have had a few lively threads > discussing three somewhat different proposals: >#1 mentor re-boot >#2 pTLP >#3 Ross's strawman http://s.apache.org/8eS > it feels to me that all three need additional wor

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 2:59 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 12:16 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) > wrote: >> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/IncubatorIssues2013 > > If someone reviews this it would be nice to add brief comments about > today's state, maybe right after

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 12:16 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) wrote: > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/IncubatorIssues2013 If someone reviews this it would be nice to add brief comments about today's state, maybe right after each item's title (like "early 2014 status: still a problem") -Bertran

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/IncubatorIssues2013 Ross -Original Message- From: Alan D. Cabrera [mailto:l...@toolazydogs.com] Sent: Friday, January 16, 2015 3:13 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.) > On

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

> On Jan 16, 2015, at 3:04 PM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) > wrote: > > Or we could just do it > > We debated plenty. Three proposals came out of it (two if you look at mine as > the strawman it was intended to be). > > Those proposals are not mutually exclusive. > > I say record them in th

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.) > On Jan 14, 2015, at 8:48 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > > Hi! > > at this point we have had a few lively threads discussing three > somewhat different proposals: > #1 mentor re-boot > #2 pTLP > #3 Ross

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

> On Jan 14, 2015, at 8:48 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > > Hi! > > at this point we have had a few lively threads > discussing three somewhat different proposals: > #1 mentor re-boot > #2 pTLP > #3 Ross's strawman http://s.apache.org/8eS > it feels to me that all three need additional wor

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.) Anyone mind then if i put strawman up on the wiki? On Wed Jan 14 2015 at 12:11:42 PM Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > > > On Jan 14, 2015, at 8:48 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > > >

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

Anyone mind then if i put strawman up on the wiki? On Wed Jan 14 2015 at 12:11:42 PM Alan D. Cabrera wrote: > > > On Jan 14, 2015, at 8:48 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > > > > Hi! > > > > at this point we have had a few lively threads > > discussing three somewhat different proposals: > > #1 m

RE: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

Thank you for volunteering to wikify my proposal - I appreciate it. Ross Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc. A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation -Original Message- From: shaposh...@gmail.com [mailto:shaposh...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Roman Shaposhnik Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 8:

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

> On Jan 14, 2015, at 8:48 AM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > > Hi! > > at this point we have had a few lively threads > discussing three somewhat different proposals: > #1 mentor re-boot https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MentorRebootProposal

Re: Next steps for various proposals (mentor re-boot, pTLP, etc.)

Roman, Are all three available on the wiki? Maybe link to them just in case I missed one.. John On Wed Jan 14 2015 at 11:48:41 AM Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > Hi! > > at this point we have had a few lively threads > discussing three somewhat different proposals: >#1 mentor re-boot >#2 pTL