--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> shall i try to replicate this with a handful of grass, a tuna salad,
and stjarni? :)
> --vicka
---Hi might go for the tuna salad for the bread! It's
Osp's absolute favorite treat. She's normally pretty respectful and
doe
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Lorraine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is from Mossrock endurance site. it is adjustable. What do you
all think?
> Lorraine
---Too funny - that's my little Osp's head showcasing it :-
). I love this sidepull. You can adjust it to fit almost
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Mic Rushen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Me too. I was just speaking to a friend on the phone who watched a
rider warming his horse up in the woods at the WC, using elastics on
the legs.
> Mic
-Oh this just saddens me. All I can think of is the
Sadd
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What size is the most popular, I have a size seven and a half boot.
I have no clue what size to order. Sylvia
-I'm not sure if they come in different footbed sizes,
but I know they come in different "neck" sizes. Th
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Laree Shulman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would think in N. MI that would be a definite plus but down here in
NC I am thinking that might be a minus because we have more warm
weather than cold.
-Ah, good point Laree :-).
Dawn
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Cherie Mascis"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> They are quite a bit heavier and only come in brown (but I suppose
you could dye them).
> Cherie
-Actually, mine are black. But, they could have been
died by the previous owner...
Dawn Bruin-Slot, n
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Laree Shulman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Where have you guys found your best deal on E-Z ride stirrups and do
you have a preference for the cage or the solid (tapadero) style toe
stop?
> Laree
--Hi Laree, I bought mine used from a lady who was se
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Lauscher"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> when you were feeling the most alienated, was it during a time you
were holding some of your previous beliefs to be true?
-It probably was. But I think it was also when I
pointed out how the posts o
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Janice McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> How do you disagree and then maintain your stance when people start
calling you names just for having a different belief? you look at
pictures like this:
> http://gallery.mac.com/jtfreeman/100035/DPP_0225/web.jpg
>
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Robyn Schulze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Its the ones who regard those of us into natural methods as lunatics
who don't know what we're talking about. Those are the ones who won't
change. So sadly, it IS going to be us vs. them, to a degree.
--
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Lauscher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> But seriously, how long has Judy been providing information and stil
the trolls come on to argue?
There will likely always be people who want to
start an argument just to argue, no matter which l
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Robyn Schulze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > Exactly, and who of us cares one whit about status? I sure don't.
> I agree. And you won't change the minds of people in that group
anyway.
> Robyn S
I wholly disagree with this. There are absolu
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Interesting. I'm used to mainly thinking of winging as a
conformation problem...and I suspect there almost has to be a
conformational element for a horse to show it as markedly as these two
did. > Karen Thomas, NC
-
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Sturm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How weird do you suppose it would look if I hung them on the dressage
saddle? I'd sure feel safer.
> Nancy
---If it works for you, then go for it! Besides, looks
are only for the show ring, not the re
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Janice McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> we had southern states here. I supplement with Gro Strong by
alliance, loose, and we have coastal bermuda hay.
> Janice
--What made you decide to go with Gro Strong
Janice? I did some lookin
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The curb bit, on the other hand, is fundamentall intended for one-
handed rein contact. The unjointed bar is rigid and immovable, it
must not be tilted, and its position on the tongue must not to
altered much. Consequen
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "janine4494" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm putting it off till we get his diet under control. But... I
wonder if Icelandics naturally have a higher Basophile count. Anyone
have any experience with it?
> Janine -n- Safi
--Janine, is Safi an imp
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What type of bridle did she have on? Did it include a brow band? a
throat latch?
--Let me think back to that time (it was a few years ago) -
I think she had on a woven nylon bridle with a browband and
thr
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think the key is not to make up excuses, but to handle the root
problems...hopefully before they even become problems
> Karen Thomas
-I agree with this. But I guess I've been in some unique
situation
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Sturm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I used to teach all my horses to turn on the forehand. Something was
going wrong if the rider needed to pull so hard that the snaffle was
pulled through her horse's mouth.
Yes, you are correct. Someth
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There are millions of horses around the world who are ridden with
snaffles and this does not happen to them.
-I've actually heard of the bit coming through the
horse's mouth on many, many occasions. I've
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Janice McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> they will go behind the vertical themselves, without being put there
by the rider, for instance, now why on earth would they do this? rote
obedience for one, but in many/most cases, they learn if they just give
in
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think we can clearly see that the dropped nosebands on Icelandic
Horses are not a good thing.
--But interestingly, my sister's horse WAS more
comfortable with a loose fittid dropped noseband. I think the
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Janice McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> But its not good to be nasty because then you lose an opportunity
to attract bees with honey and not vinegar. and then also I notice:
sometimes when people start arguing the whole point gets lost behind
the argum
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> and of course i'm already working on seeing if i can
determine/remediate the cause...stjarni's comfort and well-being matter
to me more than anything.
> --vicka
-Vicka, what does Kaaren say about the white hairs?
Does
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Please consider that many list members would find it more pleasant if
every issue was not dealt with in an adversarial way.
> Phil
---Me included. I actually stop and try to picture
telling people what I
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Laree Shulman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At least I got across the point that most horses will do quitewell
without a bit if they are trained well.
> Laree
--That's really cool Laree! I had the opportunity to
show the owner of the Tennessee
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> When the vet sedated him for the floating, she found the first
clue: there were deep and old ulcers on each side of his mouth, right
at the inside corners of his lip. Based on the scarring, she guessed
that they had b
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Kirchner"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dawn, I know you have been working on these tights for yourself for
years, then others started to ask you for them, and a business was
born... I find it really exciting for you... before you know it you
will need 1
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I noticed that the Malden Mills online store only suggests the
PowerDry material for "undergarments and for shirtings." See:
http://www.maldenmillsstore.com/dept2.asp?
dept=31&id=0709234371759512370075
> I'm not prepa
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Is the full seat patch clarino?
> i'll defer to dawn to answer that one -- it's some kind of nice
grippy light fake suede
> --vicka
-No, I don't use clarino because it doesn't have any
stretch at all. I've found t
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Virginia Tupper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Do you have photos online? Do you do kids?
> V
--I have a web site being worked on, but it's not up and
running yet. I'd be happy to email photos to you though if you are
interested.
Yes, I can make
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Kirchner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Maybe Dawn can make them tight for us who prefer them that way??? I
am not a boot cut gal either, I would think since they make them
custom, she might be able to at some point, if not now, maybe this
winter?
> Debb
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Kirchner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I will love it as long as it fits us both, COLOR is sigh, just
color... RIGHT?
> Debbie in MN
Yep, BUT it's still more fun to match stuff up right!
Dawn Bruin-Slot, northern Michigan
Fuzzy Logic Equin
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Janice McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> i dont think they are so bulky as to cancel out the ability to wear
half chaps...
> Janice
-You should still be able to wear half chaps, or full chaps
easily over the pants. I have a pair of half chaps
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Janice McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I would just buy from dawn if i wanted reasonable pants. besides,
altho she doesnt advertise them as such she worked with me on
practically a custom fit basis, making the pants just the right
length for me etc. y
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> just wanted to add a testimonial -- i have a pair of those and they
are the lightest riding tights i have, and mine are full-seat. i wear
them on hot days when i'm teaching especially, as that involves a lot
of running around and gets
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Kirchner"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thank you Dawn... You have been a JEM to help her out Thank
you...
-It's a "pay it forward" thing. When my sister was going
through emergency colic surgery with her horse, she received a
TREMENDOU
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Kirchner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Dawn makes tights for us, all kinds of colors at a resonable price,
75 I think for full seat pants, using our measurements, Her address is
on the link below for Raven...
Yep. And I do offer a
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The microcord isn't supposed to be their summer weight, so I
wouldn't expect them to be the very most breathable fabric around.
---Holy cow - I couldn't IMAGINE the ones I had being
a "winter weight" or "
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Virginia Tupper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Yes, they come in a light weight or a heavier weight called
microcord -- not sure if they're 2nds or what but I haven't seen any
flaws in the ones I've purchased.
--I bought a pair of these in the micr
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> but i think the biggest factor might be the rider's ability to
balance well and make stjarni's life easy; the "well-packed, well-
fitted backpack model" :)
> --vicka
Vicka, you hit on a few really, really important thin
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> me for everybody from my 60# smallest student to my 6'2" husband.
and of course he feels perfect to me, and i am rather tiny myself for
an adult; 5'1, 110#, size 6 ariat terrains.> --vicka
Vicka, Stjarni is indeed a well b
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Have we heard a trainer, breeder, or seller of Icelandic Horses claim
that the horses can carry a 300 lb man all day?
---No, I haven't.
> Is this true?
---No, it's not.
> Is it logical?
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And clicker training can be very helpful in getting a horse to calm
down pretty quickly.
---Couldn't agree with this more. The gelding I'm re-
training (the one with the lump on his back caused by ill-saddle
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I haven't tied a horse to be saddled in a long time. I just do it
on the lawn, or if in the paddock, just at liberty.
---Yep, we basically do the same thing. We do put them
in a stall configuration to sadd
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Anneliese Virro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Horses have to get their heads down to eat, getting their heads
down has a calming effect. Seems pretty obvious to me! How could you
be in the minority, thinking that way?
> Anneliese
--That's kinda my tho
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We let them graze for a few minutes while the cinched girths are a
new concept. Sometimes when they put their heads down, a girth with
give them a sense of being "grabbed." It seems to help when that
happens when the
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Raven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Dawn...that's about 500 miles from me. Please let me know more
about this horse and also if the owner is interested in contacting me
or if I should contact the owner? Thanks, Raven
--I just emailed the lady in
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Virginia Tupper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Do you have a photo of it?
> V
--Unfortunately, no. I now wish I had gotten a picture of
her at her worst, for comparison. I'll try to get some pics of her
legs on Tuesday when I go out to the barn.
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, pippa258 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> He put his hand in through the large hole and an octopus grabbed
both his hand and the knife...
> Trish
--Trish, that's one of the craziest stories I've ever
heard! Very fascinating. Thanks for sharing, ev
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Virginia Tupper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Check Gat's belly seam. That is the first place where SE shows up.
What you are describing does not sound like SE.
---USUALLY, but not always. The first place it shows up
on Osp is her legs and face.
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Raven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Dawn...can you please tell me where the free lease Ice horse
gelding is located? Which town? I am interested in him. THANKS!
> Raven
Hi Raven, I think he's in or near the city of Cheboygan,
Michigan. It's in the
Hey all,
There's a lady up in my area who needs to find a good home for her
Icelandic gelding, Hagar, for a while. I'm not sure what her reasons
are, but she'd like to do a free lease (you keep him and ride him for
free) for I think a year or two. I think she'd also sell him to the
right home.
I'
Well, the auctions on the Fuzzy Logic Equine riding pants and the
leather girth have ended. We came up with a total of $225. I will
be mailing a check to Raven after they are all paid. I decided to do
a check instead of PayPal because I want her to get the full amount.
Additionally, I have h
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Also consider using a Homeopathic remedy Thuja which acts as a detox
(doesn't change the effectiveness of the vaccine) but it helps with
horses who may have skin reactions to the vaccine.
> Actually for horses with SE, us
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Kirchner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> My soul is filled with so much love from this experience, I am not
sure I can express how grateful I am...
> Debbie in MN Huginn's Hospital Fund sites
--Debbie, my twin sister had the same feeling when
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Lorraine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would get the pants if I was tall and skinny.
> Happy Trails from Lori
--Don't have to be Lori - I've got a pair of 2X listed
too. I'm a happy Large or xLarge, and am more than happy to make those
sizes as we
Hey all,
I just listed a bunch of pairs of my Fuzzy Logic Equine riding pants on
eBay for sale and a nice leather girth. I am selling these with the
proceeds going to Raven and Huginn to help with vet bills.
Here's a link to one of my pants. http://tinyurl.com/32m2kp
You can then open up the list
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One of the contributors is a long back, particularly a long lumbar
span (loins). I think that's why so many pacey horses are also prone
to swaybacks.
> Karen Thomas, NC
--PLEASE, PLEASE tell this to Os
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The names and definitions are already in place, and despite the fact
that they don't want us to be right, some of them are using the terms
today.
> Judy
And who says semantics don't matter ;-). But I can
ho
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> do you feel additional terms are needed to describe those gaits?
> --vicka
-Good point :-). I guess the question I have is this -
at what point is it ok to just say "pacey" or "trotty"? I would bet
that many folks wou
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm with you, Kim. I don't use the word "brokk" when I mean trot
-And there are a lot of folks out there who feel the same.
I NOW use mainly english words with Osp. But when we first started
working
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do you think that Icelandic Horses do a saddle rack?
> Judy
I'm going to apologize ahead of time - I don't have a
lot of time to post right now.
But yes, I do think they saddle rack. I think they tolt
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
> Dawn, you were going to talk about how a saddle rack is different
than a rack / tolt:
Actually, there was a great definition given not too long
ato. I think Karen said it (don't have time to keep track of all
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's not a list about semantics. It's a list about HORSES -
Icelandic horses. Wonderful, living, breathing creatures.
> Karen Thomas, NC
-I totally disagree with this Karen. This list IS a
list very
Here's something to chew on -
It was mentioned and encouraged to use the word "gaiting" to describe
a horse that is doing a soft gait, or a more lateral tendancy gait.
But here's the thing - EVERY forward movement can be called a gait. A
walk is a gait, a trot is a gait, a canter is a gait,
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> i *do* respect judy as a list owner. i do not respect her as a
linguist. the list is "her house"; english and icelandic are not. nor
do i think that one demonstrates respect by refusing to engage in
discussion or disagreement.
> --vi
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> ps. credit where it's due: lovely riding pants by dawn_a (for whom i
put up that page originally), sensation dressage saddle lent by kaaren
jordan, photos taken by my student frances.
---Thanks Vicka! The black/turquoise is su
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How old? How long being ridden?
He's still young - 6 years old this year. He was started
under saddle last summer and mainly trail ridden. I don't know the
whole history of how long he was ridden each time
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK. Can you recap his history; I can't recall if we talked about
him before.
-Long story, nutshell version is that he had a hard
lump on one side, just behind his wither about 6 months ago. We
highly s
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Sturm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> She was so sore right behind the withers that she practically went
down when I touched her.
-Wow. This little guy didn't almost go down, but he was
crystal clear in telling us that it really hurt in that s
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dawn, is this the TWH?
No, it's an Icelandic gelding.
> I have a couple of thoughts and no way would I say that these
relate to the horse that you're talking about, just some thoughts
that came into my head
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Especially since his problems are recurring, I'd get him to the
vet.
---That's what I'm thinking too. It's just so weird
to not be able to figure out what's going on. Every few hours I
doubt myself
Ok, I need some help and advice. The gelding I'm working with, the
one who had a lump just behind his withers is having problems again.
We've had him under saddle a few times now and have had no problems
at all with back ouchiness. He was doing very well up until last
Tuesday. I put the saddle on
Hey all,
I just listed a bunch of stuff for sale on eBay. There's quite a bit
of warm winter riding stuff and other various things. Here's the
list:
2 pairs of Polartec 300 breeches
1 pair of winter riding boots
2 Icelandic sweaters
1 quilted riding vest
1 pr full seat breeches
1 saddleseat t
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Lauscher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I know I really appreciate school horses. However, I feel all school
horses need an advocate. Someone that will always be there to ensure
that their health and well-being aren't compromised.
> Wanda
--
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Not everyone can afford to keep their horses without the horses
having some job and who are we to judge which horses are happy and
which are not; and what is a suitable job. It sounds like Vicka is
trying to watch Stjarni
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I find that synthetic material often slips when natural fibers tend
to hold better...
> Robyn
---Agreed. I've found this time and time again. Most recently
today :-). I've been riding a Tennessee Walker in a woo
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Laree Shulman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am keeping my eyes open for a good saddle for my husband. He is
going to like a western type better and I'm not sure what direction
to go. He is going to be an occasional only rider and not very
secure in his seat
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Crit has fashioned his sidepulls after the Lindell which we really
like and recommend.
> Robyn
-Hi Robyn, is there a good picture of this sidepull
somewhere, or can you email me a picture? I saw a picture on
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, Robyn Hood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> When a sidepull doesn't have the jowl strap there is more tendency
for the sidepull to twist and also get too close to the horse's
eyes. The jowl strap means you don't have to tighten the nosepiece
so much...
---
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Ryder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At what times are you finding the sidepull is twisting and turning?
For example, is it when you are asking for a turn to the left or
right? Stopping?
> Judy
-We haven't ridden in a sidepull yet. I'm assum
--- In IceHorses@yahoogroups.com, "Karen Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a couple of the Moss Rock Freedom Bridles, a Nickers'
Harmony Bridle, combination bridles (Freedom and Harmony) pretty
well, BUT if you really want to try a sidepull, I'd recommend that
you get a "real" one.
-
Since the subject on sidepulls has come up...
Those who ride in them, which ones did you choose and why? What
features do you think are important to have on a sidepull? I'm not
leaning towards the kind that cross under the jowl/chin, but the kind
that attach directly to rings on the sides.
85 matches
Mail list logo
