Re: [Ietf-dkim] Misuse of antiforgery protocols

2022-12-07 Thread Neil Anuskiewicz
> On Nov 29, 2022, at 8:25 PM, Jim Fenton wrote: > >  > On 29 Nov 2022, at 18:54, Neil Anuskiewicz wrote: > > Unless I’m misunderstanding you’re saying those with an enforcing DMARC > policy can’t successfully send to mailing lists. I’m doing it now so I don’t > think DMARC has to stay

Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering

2022-12-07 Thread Michael Thomas
On 12/7/22 4:26 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: Fair enough.  Does the charter need to say that a revision to best practices, relative to the replay problem, might be a possible output?  It's within the realm of possibility that no protocol work comes out of this, but a "checkpoint" about

Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering

2022-12-07 Thread Dave Crocker
On 12/7/2022 4:26 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: Fair enough.  Does the charter need to say that a revision to best practices, relative to the replay problem, might be a possible output?  It's within the realm of possibility that no protocol work comes out of this, but a "checkpoint" about

Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering

2022-12-07 Thread Scott Kitterman
On December 8, 2022 12:26:45 AM UTC, "Murray S. Kucherawy" wrote: >On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 2:06 PM Dave Crocker wrote: > >> As appealing as the AS concept is, I've never been clear how operationally >> useful they are. >> >> More to the current point, if the anti-replay work to be done

Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering

2022-12-07 Thread Murray S. Kucherawy
On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 2:06 PM Dave Crocker wrote: > As appealing as the AS concept is, I've never been clear how operationally > useful they are. > > More to the current point, if the anti-replay work to be done benefits > from a position on transit vs. non-transit, then including it directly

Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering

2022-12-07 Thread Dave Crocker
On 12/7/2022 1:47 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: Yes, it's definitely true that the standard was written from the perspective of delivery-time evaluation, and then sending that result to MUAs rather than having MUAs actually do the evaluation.  So although 4686 says that's a design goal, 6376

Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering

2022-12-07 Thread Michael Thomas
On 12/7/22 1:47 PM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: Yes, it's definitely true that the standard was written from the perspective of delivery-time evaluation, and then sending that result to MUAs rather than having MUAs actually do the evaluation.  So although 4686 says that's a design goal,

Re: [Ietf-dkim] Rechartering

2022-12-07 Thread Murray S. Kucherawy
On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 4:20 PM Dave Crocker wrote: > DKIM was developed to facilitate delivery handling decisions. The > language in the RFC 4871 and RFC 6376 doesn't make this as explicit as I'd > wish, given the perspective I'm advocating, but it's got some implicating > language. References

Re: [Ietf-dkim] Problem Statement

2022-12-07 Thread Michael Thomas
On 12/7/22 1:59 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: That should be the only deliverable from the wg along with an evaluation of whether the problem is tractable. If it is tractable, the wg should recharter with a plan of how to implement it. Murray said it goes without saying that WGs can fail.

Re: [Ietf-dkim] not removing signatures

2022-12-07 Thread Laura Atkins
> On 7 Dec 2022, at 17:16, Barry Leiba wrote: > >> The purpose of a DKIM signature is, as our original statement put it, to >> make sure that a message from your >> bank actually came from your bank, even if it passed through your alumni >> association. Once it arrives to your >> real

Re: [Ietf-dkim] not removing signatures

2022-12-07 Thread Michael Thomas
On 12/7/22 9:16 AM, Barry Leiba wrote: The purpose of a DKIM signature is, as our original statement put it, to make sure that a message from your bank actually came from your bank, even if it passed through your alumni association. Once it arrives to your real mailbox, that signature is not

Re: [Ietf-dkim] not removing signatures

2022-12-07 Thread Barry Leiba
> The purpose of a DKIM signature is, as our original statement put it, to make > sure that a message from your > bank actually came from your bank, even if it passed through your alumni > association. Once it arrives to your > real mailbox, that signature is not needed. As long as the

Re: [Ietf-dkim] Problem Statement

2022-12-07 Thread Grant Taylor
On 12/7/22 2:59 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: ARC is a good forwarding tool. I question the veracity of that. Mostly around -- what I consider to be -- the priming problem of getting a receiving system to trust an upstream system's ARC signature. Its semantic differs from DKIM as it

Re: [Ietf-dkim] Problem Statement

2022-12-07 Thread Alessandro Vesely
On Tue 06/Dec/2022 22:52:33 +0100 Michael Thomas wrote: I think that any charter should specifically call out the need for a problem statement. The problem is far more nuanced than the few lines in the proposed charter and I think that the charter should be neutral about whether the problem