Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 1:44 PM
>To: Tony Marston
>Cc: PHP internals
>Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecate PEAR/PECL & Replace with composer/pickle
>
>On Sep 8, 2016 3:05 PM, "Tony Marston" wrote:
>>
>> "Pierre Joye&quo
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 9:15 AM
>To: Tony Marston
>Cc: PHP Internals
>Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Deprecate PEAR/PECL & Replace with composer/pickle
>
>
>On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
>
>"Ferenc Kov
"Pierre Joye" wrote in message
news:caezptu4twuap1xjx+z_n+sgj1ujptyn8pj5xuvmjei2dke0...@mail.gmail.com...
hi Tony,
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Tony Marston
wrote:
"Pierre Joye" wrote in message
news:CAEZPtU6aHYb9HsNXbXWp9q9PMoLYiJp=n1rjmspofmhbebd...@mail.gmail.com
"Michael Morris" wrote in message
news:CAEUnE0dfjJ02g2Rhkp9WvnkSXpoLzjK=tmivdbsucccgxw2...@mail.gmail.com...
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:52 AM, Tony Marston
wrote:
Typical. You create a useful tool, get your users hooked, then walk away
and leave them dangling.
No one owes yo
"Ferenc Kovacs" wrote in message
news:cah-pch568tpsztkwt553qvqy7jsp1tcqt5w+ot1pocdt-pb...@mail.gmail.com...
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Tony Marston
wrote:
"Ferenc Kovacs" wrote in message news:CAH-PCH5qHdYen33Q_s7kTKM_
8qk71v8ky6kt4fzurfawfx0...@mail.gmail.c
"Pierre Joye" wrote in message
news:CAEZPtU6aHYb9HsNXbXWp9q9PMoLYiJp=n1rjmspofmhbebd...@mail.gmail.com...
Hi Tony,
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Tony Marston
wrote:
"Niklas Keller" wrote in message
news:canuqdcjeh45_2aeq74cceoy4xc3xj0o_+yrq2nvy0k2vdox...@mail.
hat needs addressing.
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"Niklas Keller" wrote in message
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Tony Marston schrieb am So., 4. Sep. 2016, 10:38:
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message
news:b3bd7acf-a525-d921-1b1b-64ccf94b8...@gmail.com...
>
>On 02/09/2016
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message
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On 04/09/2016 09:38, Tony Marston wrote:
A1) A command-line package management tool for installing and updating
packages of PHP code over the Internet.
Incorrect. There is a web interface w
entury does not come with a web/GUI interface it just shows that the author
is still living in the past and is incapable of serving the needs of today's
users.
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'm not one of them, and I
strongly object to a small number of developers having the ability to impose
their personal preferences on the rest of the community.
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ong in attackers'
inputs.
If your RFC is about preventing attacks then it should be labelled as such.
Input validation is a totally separate issue.
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I've added discussion "Input validation and User input mistake
handling difference"
https://wiki
n the data is wrong with someting as simple as a string
being too long.
I agree 100%
v) I don't like the current filter functions, and recommend people
avoid using them. Adding to them with an even harder to use API is the
wrong way to go.
I agree 100%
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"Marco Pivetta" wrote in message
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Hey Tony,
On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Tony Marston
wrote:
"Marco Pivetta" wrote in message news:CADyq6sKZRBvYFtqyKYVYM4iU
ex+2ouujvhep1jznm56k3+h...@mai
"Lester Caine" wrote in message
news:4b381281-204d-5e57-0bba-127ab8d2e...@lsces.co.uk...
On 15/08/16 10:11, Tony Marston wrote:
The origins of $fieldarray should be obvious. The $fieldspecs array is
constructed from data which is originally extracted from the database
schema, import
"Lester Caine" wrote in message
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On 14/08/16 09:50, Tony Marston wrote:
If you are still writing code to perform primary validation on each
field then your coding style is way behind the times.
At some point you need to know
e complicated just to cover up
your own shortcomings.
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Other than that, the process of validation is a simple function, and not a
magic box:
validate :: value -> (bool, [string])
It receives a value (nested, if necessary) and tells us if it is valid or
not, plus why (as a s
not see that complicating the language by making it do what SHOULD be
done in userland code is a good idea. Helping 1% of users while hindering
the remaining 99% is not an idea which should EVER be contemplated.
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de to perform such data validation then you are
behind the times. If you expect the language to perform the validation for
you then your expectations are unreasonable.
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wrote in message
news:2049e48d-5dd3-051b-2564-afeb8c64c...@fleshgrinder.com...
On 5/27/2016 10:35 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
I disagree completely. In a database system there is no rule that says
an object can only hold data from a single row otherwise Martin Fowler,
the author of PoEAA, would
y and this change may
not suit the way that others work. As far as I can see this proposal not
only does not solve a genuine problem, it adds levels of complexity that
will do nothing but increase the WTF! factor for untold numbers of
programmers who have been happily using the language for years.
On 4/18/16 4:34 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
I repeat, where was the insult in the post in question? What exactly
were the insulting words?
I chose just one example:
> Those who cannot write effective software without these "clever"
> additions to the language are doing nothin
wrote in message news:57135893.3070...@fleshgrinder.com...
On 4/17/2016 11:19 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
Where is the insult in what I wrote?
You are not only insulting people in this thread, you do it in every
thread you contribute to. You were exhorted multiple times for doing so.
Pretending
"Tom Worster" wrote in message news:571267b4.9070...@thefsb.org...
On 4/16/16 5:04 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
"Marco Pivetta" wrote in message
news:CADyq6sJfPYgQvhQt=uvcbqkoojjoupcz1sufzwxc+55hl0p...@mail.gmail.com...
Tony, that sounds really like "real programmers u
rogrammers to just circumvent specifications as it best pleases
their mood, rather than the requirements.
Yes, I'm a real programmer too, and no, I don't use cosmic rays to write
code to my computer's hard drive, give it a rest.
On Apr 15, 2016
e checking? Those who cannot write
effective software without these "clever" additions to the language are
doing nothing but announcing to the world that they are not clever enough to
write effective software using their own limited abilities.
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ge, and in the 13+ years that I
have been programming with PHP I have found that to be more of an advantage
than a hindrance.
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your data to
Smarty, then you won't have to bend the templating system to do something it
was not designed to do.
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"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:56e0025c.5040...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 09/03/2016 10:31:
As a developer who went through several COBOL upgrades I can attest to
the fact that BC breaks were extremely rare and only for a good reason.
My code was never affected simp
ncy
between var and public, frees up "var" keyword for future usage for more
advanced concepts and just removes the duplication of functionality.
BC for the sake of BC is just silly.
It does not matter how easy you think the fix is, it would still place a
huge burden on the application
be much faster if only you un-clever not-first-rate
meddlers would stop breaking the language for NO GOOD REASON.
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wrote in message news:56df3dfb.10...@fleshgrinder.com...
@Tony Marston: I feel directly attacked and offended and others have the
feeling too, that is the definition of an insult. That being said, I am
staying constructive the whole time and do not avoid communication with
you or anyone else
is key to make the language easy to understand for the language
maintainers, and for the language users, and especially for new users of
the language.
Define "consistency". Consistency with what?
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"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:56dea829.5030...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 08/03/2016 09:51:
a
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:56dd64f5.5010...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 07/03/2016 09:14:
That takes brains and discipline, something which a
wrote in message news:56ddef7b.6080...@fleshgrinder.com...
On 3/7/2016 10:14 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
[...] Mind you, those languages were maintained by groups of
competent professionals and not an army of chimpanzees.
I will not reply fully to your last message because it was yet again
u please specify what kind of progress do see in the `var` keyword
removal? I see only a BC break.
Very best regards,
Kubis Pandian-Fowler
Od: Fleshgrinder
Odoslané: ?štvrtok?, ?3?. ?marca? ?2016 ?22?:?23
Komu: internals@lists.php.net
On 3/3/2016 10:34 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
> If you want to a
a
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:56dd64f5.5010...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 07/03/2016 09:14:
That takes brains and discipline, something which appears to be lacking
in the PHP community.
[...]
just because some numpty decides
[...]
groups of competent professiona
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:56dd68c0.1090...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 06/03/2016 08:59:
I have worked with two other languages for over a decade each, and as
these languages were maintained by
"professionals" they could guarantee that code written on
wrote in message news:56dbfdb5.1010...@fleshgrinder.com...
On 3/6/2016 7:07 AM, Stephen Coakley wrote:
@Tony Marston: you are always saying that "this is "longevity" [...]
they will move on to another language" but I do not see such a language,
not a single one. There
ased version
of PHP anyway.
All those who want to work with a 100% pure OO language should stop using
PHP and switch to Java. Stop complaining about the quirks in PHP because
there are quirks in every language. Stop trying to make the language perfect
as your definition of "perfect"
ication every 5 years, and their customers would hate to go through an
expensive upgrade every 5 years. The customers expect longevity and
stability. What you are trying to do to PHP would destroy that, and for NO
GOOD REASON!
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only
way to prevent bad code 100% would be to have a language that did nothing at
all.
Deprecating something just because you don't like is NOT a good enough
reason.
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wrote in message news:56d86c00.6000...@fleshgrinder.com...
On 3/3/2016 10:34 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
If you want to avoid such confusion over alias names then surely that
would be an argument against introducing aliases in the first place. In
this case the short array syntax would never have
any people were complaining as they are now.
So if people are still using it then surely that is an argument AGAINST its
removal.
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abused in the same way, so
surely the only way to avoid the possibility of ANY abuse whatsoever would
be to remove "public" as well as "var".
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"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:56d42cd3.6020...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 29/02/2016 09:55:
"James Titcumb" wrote in message
news:CAKnqCEY7art1GUWG=pm0wypgqmyp0dq8oxdohgbksgq+o_b...@mail.gmail.com...
On 28 Feb 2016 06:18, "Jakub Kubícek" wrot
.
If "var" is automatically translated into "public", and has been since PHP 5
emerged, and has been documented to behave in this way, then what does it
cost to leave it that way? Answer: NOTHING!
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Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 12:58 PM
To: Tony Marston
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC Proposal] var keyword deprecation/removal
Hi Tony,
Thank you so much for your feedback. You make some really good, valid
points. If I may provide some responses to some of them:
Where is your proof
wrote in message news:56cf439f.2040...@fleshgrinder.com...
On 2/25/2016 10:26 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
Science shows that it is harmful, let's clean it up!
Your "proof" is not scientific, it is just personal opinion. There is no
evidence that use of the "var" keyw
o rewrite huge swathes of code each
time a new version is released they will quickly give up and move to a
"professional" language which offers long term stability.
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automate that
process.
Why should long standing projects have to change their code just because you
personally don't use and don't like the "var" keyword?
Instead of tinkering with the language to achieve nothing but perceived
"purity" why don't you stick t
nd for getting rid of it is to make PHP work
like a different style of language.
Walter
Your reason "make PHP work like a different style of language" is
meaningless. The removal of the "var" keyword does not change any
functionality.
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HP.
My advice to you is shut up, grow up and get real.
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verything
unless we can prove the variable is dominated inside the lambda.
And this is related to Bob's proposal in a way. Right now, he has to
bind every symbol that exists in the closure using a non-notice read
(if it exists in the parent, bind, otherwise don't notice). The point
I was maki
write simple, readable
code, and my critics always say "It is too simple. Proper OO is supposed to
be more complex than that". The mark of genius is to achieve complex things
in a simple manner, not to achieve simple things in a complex manner.
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"Yasuo Ohgaki" wrote in message
news:CAGa2bXaMoHDVoZRNNPEEM--km-in4tSyux=tub0paes4tww...@mail.gmail.com...
Hi Tony,
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Tony Marston
wrote:
"Yasuo Ohgaki" wrote in message
news:CAGa2bXZvuqV4Kwru+wUL-bfTb9_tnv=l16reu-+w+uajx4h...@mail.gmai
no practical, only theoretical, benefits.
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should do away
with it.
As to what people should use instead: For the quick hack to make things
work: a sed script. Apart from that, implementing proper multibyte handling
in applications.
Nikita
But what is "proper" multibyte handling? Where is it documented?
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software in several Asian countries, and they regularly use this
ini option. Unless you can point to a fully-supported alternative I am
against dropping this option.
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"Pierre Joye" wrote in message
news:CAEZPtU7vt=ppk4p3vfzflaepzi_wfr2hr_av+dtzvd6d2dz...@mail.gmail.com...
On Feb 21, 2015 2:08 AM, "Tony Marston" wrote:
""Nikita Nefedov"" wrote in message news:op.xuco5eutc9evq2@nikita-pc...
On Fri, 20 Feb 20
""Nikita Nefedov"" wrote in message news:op.xuco5eutc9evq2@nikita-pc...
On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 12:39:33 +0300, Tony Marston
wrote:
I disagree. Exceptions were originally invented to solve the
semipredicate problem which only exists with procedural functions, not
obj
"Dmitry Stogov" wrote in message
news:CA+9eiLu634OpuXVT8NnwZwitqc=s4g8ubbmj+cob4nmqcpx...@mail.gmail.com...
On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 12:03 PM, Tony Marston
wrote:
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54e4fac2.7060...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 18/02/2015 10:
"Nikita Nefedov" wrote in message
news:CALuY8tjUq70eLkV-MbDi-fEXZvWTFi82zCNmWr7tmvpiES9=p...@mail.gmail.com...
On 18 Feb 2015 13:53, "Tony Marston" wrote:
Could it be restricted to the current scope? In your example the call to
fopen() exists in the load_data() function
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54e4fac2.7060...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 18/02/2015 10:52:
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54e32caa.5030...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 17/02/2015 09:59:
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message n
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54e32caa.5030...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 17/02/2015 09:59:
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54e1c993.1070...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 16/02/2015 10:09:
This RFC only mentions errors with object methods,
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54e1c993.1070...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 16/02/2015 10:09:
This RFC only mentions errors with object methods, so what impact would
it have with procedural functions. For example, if
fopen('nonexistantfile.txt') fails the r
message (it could be a permissions error, for
example). Is there any plan to convert procedural functions to throw
exceptions?
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he
thesaurus has a lot of possibilities.
How about "pre_assert" and "post_assert"? As Dbc is supposed to be about
defining preconditions and postconditions the use of the word "pre" and
"post" would seem appropriate.
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"Matteo Beccati" wrote in message news:54d883d2.5020...@beccati.com...
On 09/02/2015 10:49, Tony Marston wrote:
But there is a vociferous group who want to change the language in a
revolutionary way instead of an evolutionary way. They want to drop weak
typing and replace it w
"Matteo Beccati" wrote in message news:54d74c68.6070...@beccati.com...
On 08/02/2015 11:24, Tony Marston wrote:
Well said. If it is not possible to have a single codebase that runs in
both PHP 5 *AND* PHP 7 then that will be a total disaster.
Of course you can have a single codeba
r that to be sorted by PHP7 rather than having to upgrade to some
as yet unavailable PHP5.x, although I would be more than happy if I can
simply amend the live code and make both work.
Well said. If it is not possible to have a single codebase that runs in both
PHP 5 *AND* PHP 7 then that wi
ng
Java as Andi suggested?
If you want to change the typing mechanism in PHP then remember that it *IS*
weakly typed whether you like it or not, and will always be so. If you want
to introduce strict typing then it must be optional, and it must not
interfere with any of the existing PHP 5 a
an alternative.
I would also be upset if you dropped it without ever it ever being marked as
deprecated.
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is supposed to be
a common and accepted technique?
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"Larry Garfield" wrote in message news:54cbb0cd.9010...@garfieldtech.com...
On 1/30/15 4:08 AM, Tony Marston wrote:
""Pavel Kouril"" wrote in message
news:cab6yzuzymbaa5i3f9nsvebg2b7yjvo4ryvpy-eac78rsojx...@mail.gmail.com...
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 1:17 PM,
"Yasuo Ohgaki" wrote in message
news:caga2bxzgljrp6i2vdnkdga8dw7nothc9ie17tst40kpbbha...@mail.gmail.com...
Hi Tony,
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Tony Marston
wrote:
""Pavel Kouril"" wrote in message
news:cab6yzuzymbaa5i3f9nsvebg2b7yjvo4ryvpy-eac78rsojx.
t "job title".
Tony, the question here is not the style of your personal code base,
which is of course you have the full right to choose as you see fit. The
question is the style of the code in PHP core codebase
Thank you for clarifying what was not obvious in that post.
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t;junior" I mean
"years of experience", not "job title".
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t;junior" I mean
"years of experience", not "job title".
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"Michael Wallner" wrote in message
news:bd568277-5a74-4a66-ac5d-173da93fa...@php.net...
<>
I think PHP is, and should be, a language where you’re more successful in
getting things done, instead of having to do it right in one way only.
Well said! I couldn't agree m
t;junior" I mean
"years of experience", not "job title".
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s PEAR packages, the PEAR Installer has become irrelevant. It should
no longer be bundled with PHP (neither should any other package
manager). PEAR has served its purpose, it provided value for the PHP
ecosystem for a time, but now it should be retired.
And replaced with what?
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-
something only when enough people have complained about not
having it is not always the right way to go. When the motor car was invented
it was not because there was a demand for motor cars. Everybody was using
horses at the time, and if you asked them what they wanted they would have
answered
lternative would cause nothing but grief for large numbers of users. Or
don't you care how much grief you cause?
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re
and PEAR. Why not get rid of it completely?
Because a lot of sites still use it, and you haven't provided an alternative
which allows modules be to added/updated/deleted through a Control Panel.
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"Arvids Godjuks" wrote in message
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2015-01-22 15:22 GMT+02:00 Arvids Godjuks :
2015-01-21 19:21 GMT+02:00 Tony Marston :
"Kristopher" wrote in message news:CAF9U7z_BLDusnq7c0mVToxyJpqOp
"Pierre Joye" wrote in message
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On Jan 22, 2015 12:21 AM, "Tony Marston" wrote:
"Kristopher" wrote in message
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"Kristopher" wrote in message
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On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Tony Marston
wrote:
You are totally missing the point. It is the principle of having to spent
unknown quantities of time in refactoring m
"Kristopher" wrote in message
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On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Tony Marston
wrote:
@tony: What's really interesting is that all this time you've spent arguing
could have been used to update your c
value to
product? It certainly would not make it run faster or produce better
results.
In theory, I could just run older PHP releases but in practice, I wont.
I also want to be able to run the latest PHP release so that I can gain
access to all those bug fixes, but a constant flow of frivolo
the new "short" syntax?
If we plan changes like this for php 7, we'll have to reconsider our
position on 5.7.
Users will never upgrade to any new version of PHP which does not contain
either bug fixes or new features. The proposal for 5.7 was for it to contain
nothing bu
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54bd4d98.80...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 19/01/2015 16:24:
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54bd240a.7050...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 19/01/2015 15:01:
The aim should be to eliminate customer grievances as m
"Andrey Andreev" wrote in message
news:caphkizzytddn2b_e84ygk3xhiudgh-m0jtqdlo85cy3pc8c...@mail.gmail.com...
On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Tony Marston
wrote:
<>
Talk about ignorance ... you've ignored the new style of coding for a
decade and don't want to
"Andrey Andreev" wrote in message
news:CAPhkiZz=gYDbHngV+gHhTgW415_KxoCU-31OiW=dxPkPg=t...@mail.gmail.com...
Hi,
On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 5:01 PM, Tony Marston
wrote:
But the only benefits with the removal of old features is a smaller
code
base for the core developers. The onl
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54bd240a.7050...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 19/01/2015 15:01:
The aim should be to eliminate customer grievances as much as possible
and not to simply ignore them.
I am not ignoring the grievances, and have repeatedly said that I am
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54bce8f5.5080...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote on 19/01/2015 10:37:
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message
news:calkijkr3os6ta55rjlq61o1+on-s3j8xfzmhjvqfxozlzwt...@mail.gmail.com...
<>
But the only benefits with the removal of
"Andrea Faulds" wrote in message
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On 19 Jan 2015, at 10:05, Tony Marston wrote:
"Marcio Almada" wrote in message
news:caoshv+uho3ovs-beqmdjomz4sdwoyjn7znmcqmt8byynugq...@mail.gmail.com...
Perhaps there should be a
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message
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On 18 January 2015 at 12:23, Tony Marston wrote:
"Rowan Collins" wrote in message news:54baba93.9070...@gmail.com...
On 17/01/2015 18:33, Todd Ruth wrote:
instantiated into an object via the
"new" verb? Google for "class constructor" and you will see all those links
which say the same thing.
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Tony Marston
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"Rowan Collins" wrote in message
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On 18 January 2015 at 11:28, Tony Marston wrote:
"Andrea Faulds" wrote in message news:23490588-0131-4B0F-A7AA-
c9c8c7666...@ajf.me...
<>
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