[The Java Posse] Re: Bye Bye Miss American Java

Come gather 'round coders Wherever your HTC roams And admit that the repos Around you have grown And accept it that soon You'll be bricked (like a bone) If your source to you Is worth savin' Then you better start compilin' Or dalvic will link to a stone For the terms they are a-changin'. -- You r

[The Java Posse] Re: Bye Bye Miss American Java

And the 2 hackers I admire the most.. Gosling and Joy left Sun, and now it's toast. The day The Java™ Died On Sep 14, 2:39 pm, Christian Catchpole wrote: > Oracle's Prayer > > Our Java, hath no prior-art in heaven, > hallowed be thy trademark; > thy monopoly come; > thy will be dispatched, > in

[The Java Posse] Re: Bye Bye Miss American Java

Oracle's Prayer Our Java, hath no prior-art in heaven, hallowed be thy trademark; thy monopoly come; thy will be dispatched, in bytecode as it is in machine code. Give us this day our daily threads. And forgive us our NullPointerExceptions, as we forgive them that NullPointer against us. And lead

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

Apple has benefited tremendously from software patents. I don't think the iPhone or the iPod would be where they are today if American companies had been allowed to produce knock-offs as soon as v1 was shipped. > > Which supports the point I was making earlier: software patent laws help > innovati

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > So far either you're bad at communicating your thoughts, or I > suck at interpreting what you've said. > The latter, obviously. -- Cédric -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse

[The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

It doesn't anger me. It strikes me as logically vapid. Way 1: The "duh" conclusion. Yes, software patent law is not completely broken, if we assume "completely broken" to mean: completely shuts down the entire innovation economy, turning the land into a barren wasteland where nary an original thou

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

I can claim "the prohibition stopped alcohol being consumed", and I would be right On the other hand, a counter-claim that "no it didn't, there were speakeasies" is not correct Why? Because the response does not address the original statement. It's actually a counter to the claim that "the prohib

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Kevin Wright wrote: > I think the problem is that the premise "law X can't be harming activity Y, > because activity Y still continues" is fundamentally flawed. > Not if it's in response to the claim that "law X is preventing Y from happening". Y *is* happening,

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

I think the problem is that the premise "law X can't be harming activity Y, because activity Y still continues" is fundamentally flawed. This is a bit more obvious if you use the same logic to describe another scenario: "There were a lot of speakeasies in the US between 1920 and 1933, therefore no

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

And this is why I gave up talking to Reinier. All he wants to do is bash people. I have to admit I have seen a couple nice comments that made sense. But it is far outweighed by his abuse of other people like this. 2010/9/13 Cédric Beust ♔ > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Reinier Zwitserlo

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > > No, but I fail to see how this is relevant to my point: there is a lot of > > software innovation happening in the US, so the software patent law > cannot > > be completely broken. > You have a way to twist words around that's quite

[The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

So, your argument for keeping a law around which is clearly doing some damage, is: Well, it's not caused the sky to fall down yet, so we'll keep it around? That's absurd. On Sep 13, 9:35 pm, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote: > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Kevin Wright > wrote: > > > Do you have any st

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012

Which of course proves Steve's point. These apps all have issues on Mac, with a mishmash of Mac and Windows keyboard shortcuts when editing text. And of course, to remain on topic, the absolutely worst example of this behaviour I've ever seen is soapUI, which is written in Swing. Some text boxes ha

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012

Disregarding Java for the moment... If you want to answer the question "can cross-platforms UIs be made to work?", do we really have to look any further than our web browsers? And I don't just mean the HTML content, I'm thinking about the whole application. Chrome looks the same regardless of wha

[The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012

OK, here are a few Java rich-client based apps that I've heard of through non-developer channels: - Minecraft: All my gamer friends, most of whom are not into software development at all, are raving about this. I was shocked to see that it was actually made in Java. It is 3D as well. Very low-fi

[The Java Posse] Re: Bye Bye Miss American Java

*sigh* {useless fact} Did you know that the earliest declaration of the death of Java was in Jan 9, 1997? http://www.google.com/search?q=%22java+is+dead%22&hl=en&prmdo=1&sa=X&ei=qImOTPPUIcSblgexgMXKAg&ved=0CA0QpwU&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1/1/1995,cd_max:12/31/1997 "Java is Dead compares Jav

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012

On 9/13/2010 2:49 PM, Casper Bang wrote: That is not my experiences, you generally can NOT just expect a Swing app to look and feel correct all over. I have written a fair amount of Swing and it's more complex and slower performing than native bindings. You'll find the menu bar wrong placed on M

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

2010/9/13 Cédric Beust ♔ > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot > wrote: > >> Cripes, Cedric. Get your head unstuck from the sand. This is a basic >> logical fallacy. You really need to look it up. >> > > I keep showing you facts and you keep responding with hand wavings...

[The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012

> Cross platform GUI is not worth the trouble? That's a pretty extreme > blanket statement. Like most things, it's a perfect fit for some > projects and not so for others. HTML/JS and Flash are all cross > platform GUI, and I'd hope that I don't need to list applications to > convince you that they

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

Given the size of the US market, there will always be some level of innovation occurring, that's just basic supply and demand. This could be because of patent laws, or it could be in spite of them. Generally, smaller companies are able to achieve a higher rate of innovation per employee. So if mo

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:31 PM, Kevin Wright wrote: > Do you have any statistics show what proportion of US innovation comes from > within large companies, and what proportion comes from the acquisition of > smaller companies? > No, but I fail to see how this is relevant to my point: there is a

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > Cripes, Cedric. Get your head unstuck from the sand. This is a basic > logical fallacy. You really need to look it up. > I keep showing you facts and you keep responding with hand wavings... we're not going to go very far this way...

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

Do you have any statistics show what proportion of US innovation comes from within large companies, and what proportion comes from the acquisition of smaller companies? 2010/9/13 Cédric Beust ♔ > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 8:14 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot > wrote: > >> Yes, Cedric, you _think_. Wh

[The Java Posse] Re: In a perfect world: How android and oracle could have gotten along.

Sounds like a nice dream. The swing API is completely unrealistic for such a thing, though. Actually, the swing API is unrealistic in general. There's a reason JavaFX exists. On Sep 13, 7:45 pm, Mark Fortner wrote: > Actually, Swing on the phone does make a lot of sense.  I've often thought > th

[The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

As I've mentioned before, you can ask for, and be granted, software patents in europe, but the law doesn't actually include a way to sue them. Yes, this is a weird situation, but the plan to fill in that particular blank has been thwarted for about a decade now with constant campaigning in brussels

[The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

Cripes, Cedric. Get your head unstuck from the sand. This is a basic logical fallacy. You really need to look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation On Sep 13, 5:20 pm, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote: > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 8:14 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot > wrote: > > >

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012

Please type up that list. Ricky. -- Ricky Clarkson Java and Scala Programmer, AD Holdings +44 1928 706373 Skype: ricky_clarkson On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 6:07 PM, clay wrote: > On Sep 9, 11:59 pm, Casper Bang wrote: > >> Ok, well you still fail to mention some of these - it's rather easy to >>

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: In a perfect world: How android and oracle could have gotten along.

Actually, Swing on the phone does make a lot of sense. I've often thought though that we should have a context-independent graphics toolkit. Imagine for a moment, if you could create an application complete with a UI and run the application on a server, on a desktop, or on a phone. The context w

[The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012

On Sep 9, 11:59 pm, Casper Bang wrote: > Ok, well you still fail to mention some of these - it's rather easy to > throw out a number like that. Cross platform UI can work yes, but what > I am saying is that they don't work well enough to be worth the > trouble. Which other programming language or

[The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012

I meant to say jsr-166y rather than nio 2. I am using jsr-310 (new date time) and jsr-166y (fork join framework) on jdk6. No, I'm not compiling them myself, the projects provide jdk6 compatible binary releases. I'm not using nio.2 on jdk6 and I don't think that works with jdk6. The jsr-310 date ti

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

Josh, Presumably, patents other than those about software. Ricky. -- Ricky Clarkson Java and Scala Programmer, AD Holdings +44 1928 706373 Skype: ricky_clarkson On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Josh Suereth wrote: > So what does this organization do: http://www.epo.org/  ?? > > > On Mon, Sep

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

So what does this organization do: http://www.epo.org/ ?? On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > Yes, Cedric, you _think_. Which is the point. There's no proof, though > there are many indicators its not working as designed. My argument has > always been that, given the

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: It seems there will be a Java 7 with its JSR

Da: javaposse@googlegroups.com A: "The Java Posse" javaposse@googlegroups.com Cc: Data: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 08:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Oggetto: [The Java Posse] Re: It seems there will be a Java 7 with its JSR > This statement is the standard holding statement from Sun/Oracle > engineers. All the evidenc

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

and here's me thinking that there was a separate COPYright law preventing direct knockoffs. It's in the name... 2010/9/13 Cédric Beust ♔ > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Casper Bang wrote: > >> But then how would you explain Apple? A, then, mediocre company >> struggling to survive: http:

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 8:14 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > Yes, Cedric, you _think_. Which is the point. There's no proof, though > there are many indicators > The fact that the US is innovating a lot is a strong indicator that the system is not as broken as you claim. With this indicator, I t

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Casper Bang wrote: > But then how would you explain Apple? A, then, mediocre company > struggling to survive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU > Apple has benefited tremendously from software patents. I don't think the iPhone or the iPod would be where

[The Java Posse] Re: It seems there will be a Java 7 with its JSR

This statement is the standard holding statement from Sun/Oracle engineers. All the evidence is that the engineers want a Java SE JSR. However, nothing has changed in the JCP, management or higher political world to make this possible. Hence, the key word of the quote is "intent". Stephen On Sep 1

[The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

Yes, Cedric, you _think_. Which is the point. There's no proof, though there are many indicators its not working as designed. My argument has always been that, given the draconian, near thought-crime nature of patent law, the burden of proof is clearly on the ones in favour of it. You're trying to

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

> clone > the US and run both side-by-side, one with software patent law and one > without So that's what China's up to. Ricky. -- Ricky Clarkson Java and Scala Programmer, AD Holdings +44 1928 706373 Skype: ricky_clarkson On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > Of cour

[The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

Of course it can be. Or can not be. We don't know, is the point. clone the US and run both side-by-side, one with software patent law and one without, and it still wouldn't be particularly scientific (you'd need to clone the US at least 40 times), but we'd be getting at something. You're conflatin

Re: [The Java Posse] Bye Bye Miss American Java

>From the title, I thought this was going to be another JavaZone video. Moandji -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to ja

[The Java Posse] Bye Bye Miss American Java

I happened to be listening to 'American Pie' and couldn't help but feel it felt oddly appropriate for Java. The day Java died being the day Oracle bought them. A long, long time ago... I can still remember How that Java used to make me smile. And I knew if I had my chance That I could make those

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

If we are going to look at the beginnings of the PC explosion with an eye towards allowed patents, wouldn't it have been likely the entire "clone" market would have been illegal? Copyright was only not applied because the stuff was developed by people that didn't see the original stuff. This "loo

Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 12:10 AM, Liam Knox wrote: > I like the idea but its not what I see that happens in practice at least in > the financial sector. You rarely see the same modelling applied by 2 > systems even for very common aspects such as trades, cashflows or accounts. > Partly this is

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala vs. Groovy

Speaking of complexity: http://www.dzone.com/links/r/objects_when_if_ever.html On 13 September 2010 09:00, Kevin Wright wrote: > Worse still, I proposed starting another one! > > > On 13 September 2010 08:50, Ricky Clarkson wrote: > >> He

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Casper Bang wrote: > > I think that software patent laws help great companies while hindering > > mediocre ones (by preventing them from copying other people's ideas > before > > they have been tapped). > > But then how would you explain Apple? A, then, mediocre c

Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

You wish to understand how a program works, it comes with 100s of pages of API-level documentation, all on glossy paper and nicely ring-bound. It also has a >80% coverage rate in unit testing. So where do you go to understand this thing? Do you RTFM or do you use the source? On 13 September 20

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala vs. Groovy

Worse still, I proposed starting another one! On 13 September 2010 08:50, Ricky Clarkson wrote: > Hey, you just mentioned Scala in a thread about Scala, so you might > want to put your heat shield on. :) > > Ricky. > > -- > Ricky Clarkson > Java and Scala Programmer, AD Holdings > +44 1928 70637

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

Patents help large companies for whom the cost of patents is a fraction of their turnover. This is at the cost of small companies who are often unable to obtain funding due to the perceived threat of future patent problems When was encouraging the incumbents and crippling start-ups ever an effecti

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala vs. Groovy

Hey, you just mentioned Scala in a thread about Scala, so you might want to put your heat shield on. :) Ricky. -- Ricky Clarkson Java and Scala Programmer, AD Holdings +44 1928 706373 Skype: ricky_clarkson On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Kevin Wright wrote: > Scala comes with complexity... T

Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

Liam, That depends in which direction the verbosity goes. If it serves to explain your code better, like explaining variables do, then fine. If it's just pointless verbosity, like new Runnable() { public void run() { then it harms the readability. In a different context, imagine you're marking

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala vs. Groovy

Scala comes with complexity... There, I said it! Of course it has complexity, all programming languages do, without exception. But when somebody states "Scala is complex" while comparing it to Java? That's also disingenuous, it implies that Java is as simple as turning on your television, that it

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala vs. Groovy

Hi Steven, It's not just about how pretty the syntax is. Firstly, on average, the more lines of code you have, the more bugs you have. So unless you do something $stupid, reducing the number of lines you write probably reduces the number of bugs you write. Of course, refactoring existing code t

[The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

> I think that software patent laws help great companies while hindering > mediocre ones (by preventing them from copying other people's ideas before > they have been tapped). But then how would you explain Apple? A, then, mediocre company struggling to survive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0D

[The Java Posse] Re: In a perfect world: How android and oracle could have gotten along.

> They are a business company and they couldn't care less about Java or > developers. Google of course being an entirely philanthropic organisation devoted to curing world hunger and making the lives of first world developers a floating palace of love. :o) -- You received this message because

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

On 13/09/2010, at 5:03 PM, Cédric Beust ♔ wrote: > > > On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Miroslav Pokorny > wrote: >> > I mentioned ARM as even though they are a hardware company they too exist > purely because of trust and excellence rather than patents. > > I'll take your word for that

Re: [The Java Posse] Re: SERIOUS OpenJDK question

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Miroslav Pokorny < miroslav.poko...@gmail.com> wrote: > I mentioned ARM as even though they are a hardware company they too exist > purely because of trust and excellence rather than patents. > I'll take your word for that but I'll offer something for you to thi

[The Java Posse] Re: Scala vs. Groovy

I think you are spot on Andrew. Although not popular to say in a forum like this, the JVM world is a bit self-centered and as evident by people following several camps, cross-pollination towards the JVM world has traditionally been scary limited. This has gotten a little better since the demise of