To hear what this keyboard-centric mucking about with temperament
actually means in practice, I strongly recommend Richard Egarr's
excellent harpsichord recital at Weill Hall on [1]youtu.be/JIvbEWKpGwk
He plays the first half (Byrd and Sweelinck) in 1/4-comma meantone and
the secon
07:00)
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
become loose.
Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
Even if some pi
tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
> Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
> To: lutelist Net <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
>
> My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after
s
hten those frets!
> Sterling
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>
> Original message
> From: Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
> Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
> To: lutelist Net <[
n von Neumann
Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
become loose.
Actually I find some differenc
On 08.03.2018 13:18, Martin Shepherd wrote:
I should just point out that there are no pure fifths in meantone temperaments.
The fifths are close to pure in equal temperament, just 2 cents narrow, but in
meantone temperaments they are much more narrow.
I usually use 6th comma, and I do find th
, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Original message
From: Tristan von Neumann
Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
time. Maybe my knot
My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
become loose.
Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color
and not a f
Hi dear fellow lutenists
My experience in many international "master courses" is that those, who
talk most of this or that tuning, "4th" or "6th" or "equal", are just
those, who are not the best in the intonation...
Lute is a strange animal: you make compromises, you put tastini, you set
you
otten those gut strings "perfect" someone will turn on the air
conditioning.
Leonard
Sorry if this is a duplicate mailing
-Original Message-
From: Martin Shepherd
To: Lute List
Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 11:11 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would be rather
surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was “the frets can
move so they must have moved”. I read the book a couple of years ago but
glancing through it again there is a balanced and measured weighing
hursday, 8 March 2018, 16:25
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
I agree with the review: just because frets could be moved doesn't
mean
they were. The historical evidence is thin indeed. Tying frets is a
very convenient way to fret a lute and, an added advantage, can
otten those gut strings "perfect" someone will turn on the air
conditioning.
Leonard
-Original Message-
From: Martin Shepherd
To: Lute List
Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 11:11 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
I was not advocating any particular te
MH
__
From: Andreas Schlegel
To: Daniel Shoskes
Cc: Matthew Daillie ; lute list
Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 16:02
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
There's a different view here:
A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of
I was not advocating any particular temperament, just trying to explain
that even in equal temperament, the fifths are not pure.
M
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Thereâs a different view here:
A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone
temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: Early
Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
Andreas
> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes :
>
> For an
For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo and
continuo), I highly recommend âMeantone Temperaments on Lutes and Violsâ by
David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered in part 1, theory
in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and using a tuni
is topic generally has been the subject of repeated threads on
this list - Andrew, you may care to trawl the substantial archives.
__________
From: Ron Andrico
To: Martin Shepherd ; Lute List
Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 12:42
S
I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said
the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4
comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on
lutes, a can of worms I
__
From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
behalf
of Martin Shepherd <[5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 12:18 PM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
I should ju
well tuned, actually
sounds louder (from more sympathetic vibes?).
Leonard
-Original Message-
From: Matthew Daillie
To: lute
Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 8:04 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
I fear that there is a misunderstanding here. The 'perfect&#x
You are confusing two totally different things Ron and your comment is
completely misleading.
Of course major thirds can be pure. When the corresponding harmonics of
the two notes constituting a major third are aligned, then the interval
is pure. This is a physical, acoustical phenomenon.
Di
I fear that there is a misunderstanding here. The 'perfect' fifths you
are checking (intervals of three tones and a semi-tone) are not 'pure'
fifths. One cannot have pure major thirds and pure (beat-less) fifths in
the same temperament. The fifths (and fourths) in 1/4 mean tone are
tempered.
I should just point out that there are no pure fifths in meantone
temperaments. The fifths are close to pure in equal temperament, just 2
cents narrow, but in meantone temperaments they are much more narrow.
I usually use 6th comma, and I do find the fifths useful as a tuning
check, but only
I should have added--it seems to work quite well. I check perfect
fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also. The ear
tuning has, to be sure, the final say. But for starters, when things
get a bit off, the f transposition has been nice for getting the open
str
Hi Leonard,
This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to me. Maybe
it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are doing when
checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of your lute).
With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure, bea
I use it in some Kapsberger pieces I play as intermezzi in recitals
with singers with early 17th century Italian repertoire. For this
repertoire I tune (1/4 comma) mean tone. I like it.
David
On 20 June 2012 05:22, Bruno Correia wrote:
> A question to the theorbo experts: does meantone tuning
David's is the only one I have measured that works, but perhaps some
of the other ones work.
dt
At 11:58 AM 2/8/2009, you wrote:
>Charles Browne wrote:
>>There is a fret placement spreadsheet on the LSA website that will
>>provide you with all the information without re-calculation. It
>>will g
> Stuart Walsh wrote:
>> multiplying by 43. But - so much choice. Any advice on a temperament for
>> second half of fifteenth century?
For earlier music, Ars Nova and Trecento, I use Pythagorean
temperament. It was a surpsrise to me how much Italian early 16th
century music I still could play wit
Stuart Walsh wrote:
Charles Browne wrote:
There is a fret placement spreadsheet on the LSA website that will
provide you with all the information without re-calculation. It will
give fret positions for a number of temperaments/and string lengths
it is worth looking at!
Charles
Thanks. Found
Yes, especially for that Falkenhagen Prelude.
RT
From: "David Rastall"
On the subject of fret placement, what about fret placement on the
Baroque lute?
Davidr
dlu...@verizon.net
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On the subject of fret placement, what about fret placement on the
Baroque lute?
Davidr
dlu...@verizon.net
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Stuart,
Try the 1/4 comma to start; the thinking being to overdo the change so
you can more easily define its differences. You can always scale back
to 1/6 and compare. If you go the 1/4 comma route you may want to play
your lower F#s on the 6th G fret till you get a tastino, at least for
Charles Browne wrote:
There is a fret placement spreadsheet on the LSA website that will
provide you with all the information without re-calculation. It will
give fret positions for a number of temperaments/and string lengths
it is worth looking at!
Charles
Thanks. Found it and punched in the
Stuart Walsh wrote:
David van Ooijen wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Stuart Walsh
wrote:
Did someone once put up a calculator which which worked out fret
positions,
in meantone, for a given string length?
Stuart
It's not exactly a calculator, but it has a table with numbers
David van Ooijen wrote:
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote:
Did someone once put up a calculator which which worked out fret positions,
in meantone, for a given string length?
Stuart
It's not exactly a calculator, but it has a table with numbers to
multiply string le
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 12:35 AM, David Tayler wrote:
> I can vouch that David's system works perfectly and as I result I owe
> him a beer for life.
I'll take you up on that one!
David - just wondering: won't that give a headache for life?
***
David van Ooijen
davidv
I can vouch that David's system works perfectly and as I result I owe
him a beer for life.
dt
At 02:53 PM 2/7/2009, you wrote:
>On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote:
> > Did someone once put up a calculator which which worked out fret positions,
> > in meantone, for a given string
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote:
> Did someone once put up a calculator which which worked out fret positions,
> in meantone, for a given string length?
Stuart
It's not exactly a calculator, but it has a table with numbers to
multiply string length with.
http://home.planet.n
Dear Mathias, and All
What you say below (about 6th comma being incompatible with French
Baroque ) is entirely convincing, and indeed, Benjamin Narvey
(musicologist, specializing in the area of French Baroque music), who
I met yesterday, told me exactly the same thing, and said he would
p
]>
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu"
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:06 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone
Both keyboard instruments with split keys and fretted instruments
with extra frets (either full extra frets or tastini, as both
existed) are able to play the enharmonic shifts.
All is poss
Both keyboard instruments with split keys and fretted instruments
with extra frets (either full extra frets or tastini, as both
existed) are able to play the enharmonic shifts.
All is possible; not all is desirable.
I think what one sees in the adjustments to instruments is that full
enharmonic
A violin sonata by Georg Muffat modulates enharmonically from D
major to Bb major. There goes meantone out the window.
I have no idea what temperament Muffat liked, but those of us who
keep our renaissance lutes in some sort of meantone have no problems
playing in D and Bb without resetting
From: "howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Jun 19, 2008, at 8:18 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:
A violin sonata by Georg Muffat modulates enharmonically from D
major to Bb major. There goes meantone out the window.
I have no idea what temperament Muffat liked, but those of us who
keep our ren
On Jun 19, 2008, at 8:18 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:
> A violin sonata by Georg Muffat modulates enharmonically from D
> major to Bb major. There goes meantone out the window.
I have no idea what temperament Muffat liked, but those of us who
keep our renaissance lutes in some sort of meantone h
From: "howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My opinion and conclusion so far remains that no dogma will ever
prevail in that field, and no theory, as attractive as it may be,
will ever reconcile what was has, after all, never been reconciled
by our predecessors in the 16th - 18th centuries.
Perha
Dear All:
Just for the record, my tenor cittern (by Forrester) has what resemble
tastini, little frets that allow in-tune F-sharp and C-sharp, a few millimeters
below the main frets.
Cheers,
Jim
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On Jun 19, 2008, at 1:04 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
> My opinion and conclusion so far remains that no dogma will ever
> prevail in that field, and no theory, as attractive as it may be,
> will ever reconcile what was has, after all, never been reconciled
> by our predecessors in the 16th
Tremendous!
Eugene
At 03:07 AM 6/19/2008, dc wrote:
Jean-Marie Poirier écrit:
Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a more or
less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments like lutes or
viols, and the ear of the musician (not the OT-12 or any other tun
Howard,
This difficulty that you mention was obviously the reason why so many witnesses
complain about the problems raised by associating keyboards and fretted
instruments at the time. Yet they did perform together, so they obviously found
compromises, and what is a tuning, any tuning, if not a
Perhaps, someone else can remember for you. It would be interesting
to see whether it resembles how Tastini are done today.
Anthony
Le 19 juin 08 à 08:34, Rob MacKillop a écrit :
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keys
less usual, and that (as I said) doth happen by reason of
the inequality
of tones and semitones, especially of the latter."
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 June 2008 21:58
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mea
order when we change to keys
>less usual, and that (as I said) doth happen by reason of the inequality
>of tones and semitones, especially of the latter."
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Stewart.
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL
not perceived, neither do they
>>occur in instruments which have no frets as violins and wind instruments
>>where the sound is modulated by the touch of the finger; but in such
>>only as have fixed stops or frets, which being placed and fitted for the
>>most usual keys in
Of course, the ideal link ! I really love that clip :-)))
Jean-Marie
PS : by the way, I did not mean to imply that "only" ivory could be used for
tastini. It's Jean DEnis who in 1601 wrote that ivory "can" be used to that
purpose on fretted instruments. Not a nuance, a gap ;-))
=== 19-06
Excellent...
Link again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhHAojVyeG0
(the first link was not good)
V.
-Message d'origine-
De : dc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Envoyé : jeudi 19 juin 2008 09:07
À : lute
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Meantone
Jean-Marie Poirier écrit:
>Anyway, the bulk of hi
Thank you Rob, I'd be interested to see the picture. However, I should have
said 'why don't we frequently see them in iconography?'
Martyn
--- On Thu, 19/6/08, Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sub
>
> If they were at all common why don't we see them in iconography?
>
> There is indeed a painting which clearly shows tastini - but I can't
remember where I saw it! Sorry...
Rob
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most usual keys in the scale, seem out of order when we
> change to keys
> less usual, and that (as I said) doth happen by reason of
> the inequality
> of tones and semitones, especially of the latter."
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Stewart.
>
>
>
> -Origina
ced and fitted for the
>most usual keys in the scale, seem out of order when we change to keys
>less usual, and that (as I said) doth happen by reason of the inequality
>of tones and semitones, especially of the latter."
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Stewart.
>
>
>
>-
Howard
It is the same for double fretting. Mace says that single frets are
ideal, and then only tells us how to double fret.
Well, I have to say I can find no fault with the double fretting on
my new lute, not a buzz anywhere to be heard.
I suppose we should look wider at instructions in al
On Jun 18, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
> Anyway, the bulk of historical evidence is clearly in favour of a
> more or less equal temperament when considering fretted instruments
> like lutes or viols,
As far as I know, the historical evidence consists mostly of:
1) Actual inst
roque lutes (in all their various tunings)
>>were not played with keyboard instruments,
>>because there were too many problems getting the
>>instruments in tune with each other. I am aware
>>that Weiss and Baron composed music for flute
>>and lute, but they are very much the exce
From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Throughout the present discussion I have tried to use the words equal
and unequal when referring to fret spacing, rather than keep talking
about meantone. All fretting systems on the lute, apart from equal, can
only be approximations to keyboard temperame
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 June 2008 12:53
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meantone
Dear Stewart and all,
I am not a great enthusiast of meantone
temperament as a result of my readings of
concordant theoretical sour
On Jun 18, 2008, at 5:33 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote:
> In this context, I continue my speculation that baroque lutes (in
> all their various tunings) were not played with keyboard
> instruments, because there were too many problems getting the
> instruments in tune with each other. I am aware t
on. A baroque flute is not in equal temperament, but a good player
can bend notes a little to alter the pitch, something a keyboard player cannot
do.
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-Original Message-
From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 June 2008 12:53
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE]
Dear Stewart and all,
I am not a great enthusiast of meantone temperament as a result of my readings
of concordant theoretical sources which do not seem to advocate this particular
tuning, and of my experience in consort playing. Of course, I do use it when
requested to, no problem, but not so
I'm very much afraid that you have not proved any such thing (' I have
proven my frets do match the organ').
My example of the first fret difficulty, which you now recognise, is but one
of the many fret positions where you will encounter similar problems. Your
earlier table of fret
if you have straight frets across the fingerboard then the chromatic and
diatonic sequence of the frets will vary across the courses and you will
often NOT therefore be playing the same 'meantone' note as the keyboard
instrument
<<
Let's keep the discussion fair, albeit tedious, I admit. I t
This is becoming tedious. To return then to the original point: if you have
straight frets across the fingerboard then the chromatic and diatonic sequence
of the frets will vary across the courses and you will often NOT therefore be
playing the same 'meantone' note as the keyboard in
Yes you are right I did not crank my F up high enough.
Definitely an improvement over ET and balances with organ.
At 02:38 PM 11/13/2007, you wrote:
>>A, and we have a nice G chord, a nice D chord and an OK A chord
>>Assuming the A chord is barred, and we don't use the fourth course,
>
>??
>
>F
First thanks to DVO for putting up the numbers--now we have some real
world material. I find this very helpful.
I'm still working though the chords, but in a real gig scenario I
would set three basic levels--
I'm sure I will make mistakes so correct me if I am wrong
Level one, the simplest of gr
Your table demonstrate some of the real practical problems I highlighted, but
the straight fret issue is but one of them.
What you are also overlooking is what happens when, to take just one very
simple early example in your table below, your first course is fretted at the
first fret
From: "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I assumed
you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one piece. Starting in
a-minor, after five bars you find yourself playing in C-major, cadenses
and all. If you'd agree that an MT-
Dear David
I know I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but isn't the G on
the fourth course +7 not minus 7, semi ideally?
Fourth course is F. F is tuned +14. To make a G of +7 on the fourth course,
you'de have to adjust the second fret by -7 (+14 -7 = +7). Beats me
everytime I make the
I know I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but isn't the G on
the fourth course +7 not minus 7, semi ideally?
I feel a surreal sense that I have somehow misplaced G.
Also, how do you manage the octave A being out by 7 centimes? Not
criticizing, just intrigued.
Thanks for the figures. I wil
Okay. Good example. Got it.
I thought the point that was being made was that it was impossible to
have them the same in both instruments. If the keyboard player set
his meantone to all flats, for example, and the lute did likewise, I
don't see where there would be any differences. I see where
If the keyboard player sets his instruments to meantone
with the accidentials f sharp, c sharp, g sharp, e flat and b flat
and you set the first fret of your lute to have a g sharp on the
first course the notes on courses 2-6 will be d sharp, a sharp,
f sharp, c sharp, g sharp.
Thus, courses 2 a
Assuming you and a keyboard player both tune to the same meantone
temperament, which notes are not in the temperament on a lute but in
the temperament on a keyboard?
On Mar 31, 2006, at 6:53 PM, LGS-Europe wrote:
>> as an example. If we set our frets to a meantone temperament (putting
>> asid
> as an example. If we set our frets to a meantone temperament (putting
> aside tastini for the moment - as a single keyboard would have to
> have just one note per key), it happens to work out that all the
> notes at every fret are in that temperament.
Ed
No, many, but not all. Enough to play con
On Mar 30, 2006, at 2:40 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
> setting single, unmodified frets in any unequal temperament
> intervals (some
> oft-cited meantone scheme, e.g.)--as some lutenists justifiably do
> (and I
> do enjoy hearing it when I perceive it as well played)--is NOT
> equivalent
>
>> These days unequally tempered lutes, theorbos and guitars play
>> with
>> unequally tempered harpsichords and organs all the time.
>
> Of course. I enjoy hearing and wouldn't want to imply otherwise. They
> still aren't quite in tune with each other, especially in remote keys.
Again, you see
On Tuesday 28 March 2006 10:09 am, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
> At 10:58 AM 3/28/2006, Arto Wikla wrote:
> >And perhaps the same ear of the period was less tolerant to every
> > tonality sounding the same and no tonality sounding pure, all the
> > major thirds sounding ugly... ;-)
>
> Obviously...b
> And perhaps the same ear of the period was less tolerant to every tonality
> sounding the same and no tonality sounding pure, all the major thirds
> sounding ugly... ;-)
> All the best,
>
> Arto
On lutes all keys sound different even in ET. And some people find meantone
3rds way too shrill.
RT
At 10:58 AM 3/28/2006, Arto Wikla wrote:
>And perhaps the same ear of the period was less tolerant to every tonality
>sounding the same and no tonality sounding pure, all the major thirds
>sounding ugly... ;-)
Obviously...but you still can't truly fret any instrument to any
temperament scheme o
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote:
> At 05:12 AM 3/28/2006, LGS-Europe wrote:
> >Of course, but we have to play together with keyboards, and think of
> >something not to be _too_ out of tune with them. |-(
> >So it's worth trying such temperaments on our continuo lutes.
>
> A fretted
>>which can be studied at http://www.larips.com ...
>
>
> I like Mr. Lehman's work, however it (or any talk of keyboard
> temperaments)
> has little direct relevance to fretted strings. Bradley can tune every
Of course, but we have to play together with keyboards, and think of
something not to
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