Thanks Rainer for this information!
Next question - is this source available online, or might anyone be
able to let me have a copy of this piece? It's really rather
extraordinary, I'd love to play it!
Peter
On 2 March 2013 21:11, adS <[1]rainer.aus-dem-spr...@gmx.de> wrote:
Probably
4 Ricercar MN Dessau BB 12150, ff. 29r-30r
Rainer adS
On 02.03.2013 16:57, Peter Martin wrote:
Does anyone know where to locate the music for the piece entitled
Fantasia 21 on Paul O'Dette's CD? It doesn't seem to be in the printed
books and I can't see it in Arthur N
ontext.
Eugene
> -Original Message-
> From: Richard Yates [mailto:rich...@yatesguitar.com]
> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 10:38 AM
> To: 'Lute Net'
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Neusidler
>
> Thanks, Dan. Yes, I understand about typos and the various kin
Yes, but you would rarely double the F sharp anyway, It could mean
his counterpoint is a bit stricter.
Still, it could be influenced by the tuning.
dt
At 05:00 PM 1/31/2009, you wrote:
> Mudarra, in his "Tres Libros..." of 1546 uses (only once, in #38
>Fantasia (quinto tono), Lib. II, f.
On Jan 31, 2009, at 5:00 PM, Leonard Williams wrote:
Interestingly, in regard to tempering
of frets, he never uses f#'s from different courses at the same time.
There wouldn't be much call for it as it's generally used as the 3rd of
a chord. Since that usually resolves in one direction any 2
Mudarra, in his "Tres Libros..." of 1546 uses (only once, in #38
Fantasia (quinto tono), Lib. II, f. 14, bar 39) a fret labelled "XI", and it
is the eleventh fret (f# in g tuning). Interestingly, in regard to tempering
of frets, he never uses f#'s from different courses at the same time.
R
>I see the XI as meaning "a note above X"
>It would have been immediately obvious to the player what note was
>called for.
>If that's the case, these aren't typos but shorthand; early notation
>always has an element of shorthand.
This makes a lot of sense and resolves the issue to my satisfactio
erizon.net/arthurjness/
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/musexx/
===
- Original Message -
From: "David Tayler"
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu"
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 2:45 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Neusidler
|I see the XI as meaning "a
tters:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/musexx/
===
- Original Message -
From: ""Mathias Rösel""
To: "'Lute Net'"
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 5:45 AM
Subject: [LUTE]
>I see the XI as meaning "a note above X"
>It would have been immediately obvious to the player what note was called for.
Exactly what I meant. And in playing that passage in the recercar,
the high g octave seemed obvious for previously stated reasons.
>If that's the case, these aren't typos b
I see the XI as meaning "a note above X"
It would have been immediately obvious to the player what note was called for.
If that's the case, these aren't typos but shorthand; ealy notation
always has an element of shorthand.
Also, the tab does not refer to a half-step; the half step ideogram
is a
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009, "Mathias Rösel" said:
> My interest was to see how 11th or 12th frets would be written in German
> tablature. The 10th fret on 1st course 9 with a dash above it. Notes on
> the 11th and 12th frets would have to be letters with double dashes
> above them. I ran through the en
>As for the particular case of the Recercar Terzo measure, I'd opt it's a
>typo, for two reasons. First, 12th fret would be rather uncomfortable in
>that situation...
Not on the right size & configuration of lute (8th fret at least a
little clear of the neck joint, and use a reasonably sized teno
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009, Richard Yates said:
> If either spot
> is a typo, what would have been the correct symbol?
First problem is to determine what the intended note can or should be.
Second issue is to consider what the compositor had to use.
using ascii tab notation (please envision the dots
"Richard Yates" schrieb:
>
> Thanks for checking those. I am getting the 1574 pieces so you info will be
> useful as I make my first attempts at German tab. Your hunches about the
> spots I cited are useful,
No hunches. Sorry, I should have made myself clear.
1. If you agree that "XI " in that
Thanks for checking those. I am getting the 1574 pieces so you info will be
useful as I make my first attempts at German tab. Your hunches about the
spots I cited are useful, although I disagree about a lack of 12th frets in
Neusidler. There are many in the 1566 collections (all labeled 'XI').
>
Thanks, Dan. Yes, I understand about typos and the various kinds one
encounters, and I think I can usually deduce by ear the correct fret to use.
But the 'XI' symbol for the octave fret is probably not a typo as it (and no
other) is used many times for that fret in the 1566 collections. The puzzle
I've looked up the 1574 edition, but it doesn't contain rececari, and
the passemezzo La Milensa must be a different piece as it doesn't
contain the given measure.
My interest was to see how 11th or 12th frets would be written in German
tablature. The 10th fret on 1st course 9 with a dash above it.
Perhaps it was overlooked in the surge of new threads, or maybe my question
was just an uninteresting one with an obvious solution, but any response to
the example I found below about the mysterious Melchior eleventh fret would
be much appreciated. RY
>I ran across another spot that confounds the
Anthony-Yes- as well as difficulty
compensating for variability of fingering for
correct intonation among differing diameter
strings, particularly thick basses- no matter
what the tuning system.. The tone color is
another point I forgot to mention- it is
different with wooden frets, not a
I suppose you are talking about the fact that the wooden frets are
fixed and may not correspond to the tuning that you are using,
or do you mean that there is a difference of tone with a wooden fret?
When I mentionned Stephen's having set my Baroque lute in 6th comma,
many people here proteste
Le 28 janv. 09 à 05:04, David Tayler a écrit :
The vast majority of the early lutes had no body frets, and the high
notes can be easily and with a nice but distinctively different sound
played all the way up the B flat (imaginary fret 15) on the
soundboard..
Some lutes either show body frets
An opportunity to use thumb position in a rare moment of cello envy.
It is so fun :)
d
At 11:03 PM 1/27/2009, you wrote:
>=== 28-01-2009 05:04:31 ===
>
> >
> >The vast majority of the early lutes had no body frets, and the high
> >notes can be easily and with a nice but distinctively di
I once tore the wooden frets off my six-course lute (got sick of bad
intonation with gut midrange & bass strings) and played it that way
for a few years. One soon learns to fret those notes with correct
intonation after a reasonable amount of proper practice, and a whole
new sound register open
=== 28-01-2009 05:04:31 ===
>
>The vast majority of the early lutes had no body frets, and the high
>notes can be easily and with a nice but distinctively different sound
>played all the way up the B flat (imaginary fret 15) on the soundboard..
I particularly like the "easily ... played
The vast majority of the early lutes had no body frets, and the high
notes can be easily and with a nice but distinctively different sound
played all the way up the B flat (imaginary fret 15) on the soundboard..
Some lutes either show body frets or curious decorative squiggles,
but these are a m
I ran across another spot that confounds the question of the eleventh fret
and its notation. In the Pass'e mezo Milanese there is a 'XI' symbol on the
second course. It sounds to me like it should be played on the eleventh fret
in contrast to other places (e.g. Recercar Terzo) where 'XI' seems to m
On Tue, Jan 27, 2009, Jean-Marie Poirier said:
> Why did people ealier than Neusidler make good use of the 11th and 12th frets
> then ? We might be entitled to suppose that the earlier lutes were not as
> reliable, or at least less "efficient" than the later ones, and yet Dalza or
> Spinaccino
>Presumably there were no frets.
>dt
Learned conjecture- taking into account iconographic, musical, and
eyewitness accounts- leans to usually no frets. Francesco was
famously credited with the advanced skill of playing "beyond the
frets" but until it was sorted out that he did this on the pluck
>Presumably he didn't have an 11th fret, so his 11th fret is our 12th,
>if you see what I mean. :-)
Yes, that makes sense, as do the other responses about the reasons that
there might not have been an eleventh fret. Wouldn't that mean all or most
of the lutes at the time all were set up this wa
There is some evidence to suggest thet early 16th century lutes had
thicker bellies than later ones. Maybe additional support underneath
the belly wasn't that much needed then.
Also the matter of personal taste should be taken into account. What
would have been a problem for one could have be
Why did people ealier than Neusidler make good use of the 11th and 12th frets
then ? We might be entitled to suppose that the earlier lutes were not as
reliable, or at least less "efficient" than the later ones, and yet Dalza or
Spinaccino don't hesitate to use these 2 upper frets...
So what's
The 11th fret usually produces a poor sound because in that case it
is positioned where there is nothing underneath the belly to support
it. (No neckblock or bar.)
Possibly therefore they decided to do without it as it was little used
anyway. Pieces where the higher frets were used more fre
Could that mean that, higher than the frets, we have only one note
possible, wich is the harmonic? And so no use to write XII?
--- En date de : Mar 27.1.09, Gordon Gregory
a A(c)crit :
De: Gordon Gregory
Objet: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Neusidler
A: "
Could that mea
--- En date de : Mar 27.1.09, Gordon Gregory
a A(c)crit :
De: Gordon Gregory
Objet: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Neusidler
A: "'Lute Net'"
Date: Mardi 27 Janvier 2009, 11h43
I find this confusing and always have. The Marsh manuscript has
I find this confusing and always have. The Marsh manuscript has a
similar convention (i.e. the frets go "l"=10th fret, "m"=12th fret and
there would seem to be no 11th fret).
We're told that they generally didn't have body frets so why didn't they
just use l=10, m=11, n=12? Why did they not want t
Dear Stewart,
-Original Message-
From: Stewart McCoy [mailto:lu...@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:34 AM
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Melchior Neusidler
>Dear Richard,
>
>Presumably he didn't have an 11th fret, so his 11th fret is our 12th, if you
>see what I mean. :-)
Presumably there were no frets.
dt
At 01:33 AM 1/27/2009, you wrote:
>Dear Richard,
>
>Presumably he didn't have an 11th fret, so his 11th fret is our 12th, if
>you see what I mean. :-)
>
>A similar thing happens, if I remember right, in the Holmes MSS in
>Cambridge, where the letter "m" is used f
Locally anhemitonic.
dt
To get on or off this list see list information at
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Yes, they are all the same, except for mistakes. What one discovers when
collating all of the sources (which you list) is that seldom are mistakes
corrected in subsequent editions, so that the more reprints, the more mistakes.
They are compounded.
Incidentally, Matonya is not being truthful wh
Dear Stewart
> Unfortunately I don't have the 4-part score to hand, but I do have
> an intabulation by Bakfark in the same key. I have compared the
> first 20 bars of the Newsidler and Bakfark versions one above the
It's what I am doing: comparing Arcadelt's four part madrigal with the
intabulati
I have entered several pieces from the 1574 print in Fronimo.
There are certainly not more errors than in other printed lute books.
However, the German tablature is difficult to read and some symbols look VERY
strange. Other German lute books are easier to transcribe.
Rainer ads (still alive)
LG
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