then post my findings.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
You
with the caveat; this is the way a Lute is supposed to be
made.
Vance Wood.
- Original Message -
From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
You
: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
I look forward to that but let's make sure we are on the same page. I am
looking at symmetricality in Lute making as two combined symmetrical
element
joined together in an asymmetrical configuration. In other words
PROTECTED], lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Vance,
I know you want to debate this thing, but I know lutes bodies, with
their necks are asymmetrical.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: Vance Wood [EMAIL
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
For a lute to be functional, it must be asymmetric with respect to all
symmetry operations. There is no reason for the body of a lute to appear
asymmetric. Lutes
PROTECTED]; Vance
Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Vance said
The point here is that the
use of asymmetry was to create the illusion of symmetry.
Why would anyone want the illusion of symmetry, when one can have
PM
Subject: RE: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Hi Michael,
Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In the
Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a paper
template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line
: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; guy_and_liz Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Manolo Laguillo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
A friend of mine who works at Sandia Labs tried
I realize the argument can be made that the instruments have become warped
and twisted over time but knowing wood as I do, if that were so, there would
be evidence in a dramatic distortion of both the treble and base sides of
the bowel.
That distortion could lead to perforation, especially
++Psychoacoustics experiments on human subjects have demonstrated
that pitch discrimination is most sensitive in the frequency band that
occurs
in the middle of the range of human hearing (including middle C).
The resolution falls off considerably at both ends of the range. Humans
find it
One of my music teachers once stated that women and children are unable
to hear a note below bottom D (on a guitar). So, presumably, if a man
sings bass, they wouldn't hear him!
One of my friends is a sound designer, and he said some low infrafrequencies
he used in a soundtrack sent women
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
After reading Mr. Lundbergs book several times I have come
decided to have a go at a theorbo.
- Original Message -
From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance
Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Vance said
The point here
.
- Original Message -
From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; guy_and_liz Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Manolo
Laguillo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
A friend
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
I haven't been taking in a lot of this stuff, but looking at the plans,
any
assymettry
I beleive the average human has difficulty
distinguishing between tones 10-20 cents apart in the vicinity of middle-
c, it may be different in other ranges, I am not familiar with the
literature on this, just one of the odd factoids I recall from a life of
interest in technical trivia. I do
Arto Wikla [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
What Jon wrote was your ear is the best tuning device. I could not
agree more!
well, I have been a performer in vocal groups, on the lute, and with
woodwinds; in all cases in ensemble. Vocal groups that perform with
instruments are always at odds with the
: Michael Thamesmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LUTELISTmailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; Manolo
Laguillomailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of composition. It
is
a cheap trick
Michael,
I thought I'd covered my views on this topic, but I have to add my comment.
Is it wrong for humans to try to achieve perfect symmetry? It seems
nature is trying.
Nature is trying, very trying (I hope you know that English trope). Can we
know perfection? No. Can we aspire to it?
PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
I'm not sure to whom to reply, so I pick on the good Dr. of Chemistry. It
comes down to the question of what is perfection.
++Perfection depends on the domain and the context. What is perfect
in one domain or application may be imperfect in another
: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED];
Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Michael,
I thought I'd covered my views
15:23
To: Jon Murphy; guy_and_liz Smith; LUTELIST; Manolo Laguillo
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
A friend of mine who works at Sandia Labs tried to explain Quantum
Physics
to me over a couple bottles of wine one evening, unfortunately if I
can't
apply it in my daily life, it goes in one
Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Hi Michael,
Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In the
Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a paper
template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line.
Is it clear how this template was used?
I can see many
@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Hi Michael,
Going back to your initial posting about lute symmetry. In the
Stradivari workshop on your recent trip to Italy, you saw a paper
template for a lute body, folded along the centre-line
Dear Dana,
On Fri, 27 May 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Bringing it back to the lute, your
ear is the best tuning device.
Arguable.
Yes, some humans ear will be the ultimate judge, but, diffreent ears
have different preferences, and, frankly, the
]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LUTELISTmailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Bringing it back to the lute, your
ear is the best tuning device.
Arguable
A dancer I was once acquainted with used to expound on what he called the
myth of radial symmetry in regard to the human body. The body *looks*
symmetrical, but inside, most of the vital organs are on one side or the
other. And if you take function into account, almost nothing is
: Friday, May 27, 2005 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
A dancer I was once acquainted with used to expound on what he called the
myth of radial symmetry in regard to the human body. The body *looks*
symmetrical, but inside, most of the vital organs are on one side
: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; guy_and_liz Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Manolo Laguillo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Perfect symmetry is a term that is too
To: LUTELIST ; Manolo Laguillo
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of composition. It
is
a cheap trick, and it is wise to avoid it. BTW, the nazi architects
(Albert Speer
At 02:24 PM 5/24/2005, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote:
++Yes, you are right when applied to the lute body which can have
a plane of symmetry, this part can in theory be completely symmetrical
with respect to that plane. It is the nut and peg box that break the
symmetrical
pattern...
..and bridges
],
Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
At 02:24 PM 5/24/2005, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote:
++Yes, you are right when applied to the lute body which can have
a plane of symmetry, this part can in theory be completely symmetrical
At 03:01 PM 5/24/2005, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote:
...But what if
you apply the symmetry question to only the body and the top without
taking into
account the internal structure and bridge? Then is there a reason for
asymmetry?
I think so, and the only reason for that single plane of symmetry
Dear Marion et al.,
- Original Message -
From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
with respect to the plane of reflection perpendicular
: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
At 02:24 PM 5/24/2005, Dr. Marion Ceruti wrote:
++Yes, you are right when applied
: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
-Original Message-
From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: May 24, 2005 11:09 AM
To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED],
guy_and_liz Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED],
LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu,
Manolo
]
To: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
That is right! (Eugene always knows!!) Any asymmetry at the nut must be
reflected in a similar asymmetry
.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
- Original Message -
From: Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Dear Marion et al.,
- Original Message -
From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL
9:31 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
I think that we all try to mirror the left and right (unless there is a
good
reason not to) - I'm talking of outline, not barring, bridge, etc., but
for
some reaon, the wood doesn't always share our aims. Moreover, the
templates
I have
, 2005 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
Geometrical drawing of the whole front leads to template for one half, by
definition reversible, based on the centre line/joint of the front...
- Original Message -
From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute
b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of composition. It is
a cheap trick, and it is wise to avoid it. BTW, the nazi architects
(Albert Speer...) used it a lot
Interesting to note, the best lutemakers of the ren. were Germans.
Actually symmetry does not exist in nature, but
PROTECTED]
To: LUTELISTmailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; Manolo Laguillomailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: symm/asymm perfect/imperfect
b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of composition. It is
a cheap trick, and it is wise to avoid it. BTW
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