on the guitar?
This, the cost and the comparative quietness compared to the guitar
hastened its demise.
In my opinion anyway.
Ron (UK)
-Original Message-
From: sterling price [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 01 October 2004 05:00
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Vihuela vs guitar
I
I think a big factor in the 18th century decline of
the lute is its -implied- difficulty. Admit it-lute
players like to promote the idea that the lute is
difficult and only playable by the elite. This
attitude is still strong today especially with the
baroque lute. The fact is it is no more
I don't think the guitar really did flourish. At about the time the lute
was busying itself with entering obscurity, the guitar was doing the
same. Certainly, there were occasional efforts at keeping each instrument
active. However, between the time of great 5-course composers of the high
I have an opinion on that as well, but that would hurt a lot of feelings out
there. So I'll abstain.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv
Dear Roman,
There may be some truth in what you say, but it doesn't explain why
the guitar flourished, and the lute didn't. Both
]; Lute List
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: vihuela vs guitar
And my question included the possibilty
that the preservation of the lute third
location might have
doomed the
lute for the more modern play (like 19th C
Aside from some unpleasant demographic considerations, the Lute was designed
for THE PRINCIPLE OF SINGLE AFFECT, the defining characteristic of the
Baroque. So, naturally, the Lute lost its usefulness as soon as that
principle went out of vogue during late Classicism.
RT
__
Roman M.
Tony,
One of the reasons I have read (can't remember where) for the triumph of
the
violin family over the gambas is that the tuning in fifths is more
suitable
for melody whereas the fourths basis is more suitable for chords. I am
not
sure I understood why, but I am sure it was written by
This isn't an answer to my question, I don't care which is older - that was
just a guess. I believe we know that the provenance of the lute was as a
melody instrument played with a quill plectrum. I don't know the provenance
of the guitar tuning. The question was this, why the difference when they
This isn't an answer to my question, I don't care which is older - that was
just a guess. I believe we know that the provenance of the lute was as a
melody instrument played with a quill plectrum. I don't know the provenance
of the guitar tuning.
There is no provenance. Again, it is contained
Deat Jon,
snip
I believe we know that the provenance of the lute was as a
melody instrument played with a quill plectrum. I don't know the
provenance
of the guitar tuning.
One of the reasons I have read (can't remember where) for the triumph of the
violin family over the gambas is that the
At 05:16 PM 9/22/2004, Stewart McCoy wrote:
Although it is true that an introductory passage may be separated
from what follows by a comma, it would be incorrect to use a comma
after passage, as you suggest for a sentence in my last e-mail,
since Throughout that passage is not an introductory
Strunk White
certainly is my favorite for its clarity and concision.
Mine too.
RT
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
all contributors to this thread within a thread will
be placed in competition for a green visor, a pair of
sleeve garters and the prestigious, h.l. menken cigar
butt (bronze) award.
- ed.
--- Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 05:16 PM 9/22/2004, Stewart McCoy wrote:
Although it
Deal me in!
-Carl
--On Thursday, September 23, 2004 3:20 PM +0100 bill kilpatrick
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
all contributors to this thread within a thread will
be placed in competition for a green visor, a pair of
sleeve garters and the prestigious, h.l. menken cigar
butt (bronze) award.
At 12:55 PM 9/23/2004, Stewart McCoy wrote:
Dear Eugene,
Many thanks for another bit o' fun. I'm pleased we won't be having
pistols at dawn over a comma. :-)
All the best,
Stewart.
Indeed, I'd rather enjoy a cordial pint o' stout over commas use!
E
To get on or off this list see list
Dear Stewart,
1) One should not normally begin a sentence with But, since but
is a word used to co-ordinate two parts of a sentence.
Have a look at Sidney's Arcadia :)
Best wishes,
Rainer aus dem Spring
IS department, development
Tel.: +49 211-5296-355
Fax.: +49 211-5296-405
SMTP:
At 03:58 AM 9/22/2004, Stewart McCoy wrote:
If we corrected each other's mistakes in English, we'd be here all
day.
Indeed.
1) One should not normally begin a sentence with But, since but
is a word used to co-ordinate two parts of a sentence.
..i.e. a conjunction.
3) Throughout that
The Chicago Manual of Style 14th ed. says:
5.37 An adverbial phrase at the beginning of a sentence is frequently
followed by a comma.
AND
5.38 The comma is usually omitted after short introductory adverbial phrases
unless misreading is likely.
I guess you can choose.
Tim Kuntz
3)
At 05:05 PM 9/18/2004, bill kilpatrick wrote:
how do you make a distinction between
two similar instruments - sitting side by side in a
museum display cabinet, say - based on a supposed
method of tuning and struming?
- bill
I'm not entirely certain of the kind of reply this is seeking. In more
Given that the lute
tuning seems to be older (can't prove that, but it seems to be),
It is not older. Guitar tuning is contained within Lute's (just remove 1st
string).
RT
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
I personally don't see this as unfortunate. All the lutenistic chimeras make
our life diverse and interesting.
RT
Unfortunately, no luthier is confined to the rules of heredity and
can generate chimeras at whim. Luthiers are free to draw
inspiration from anywhere. There often are no direct
Indeed. It's only unfortunate in trying to define relationships between
chimeras long after the original inspiration is forgotten.
At 11:23 AM 9/22/2004, Roman Turovsky wrote:
I personally don't see this as unfortunate. All the lutenistic chimeras make
our life diverse and interesting.
RT
]
To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: Vihuela vs guitar
Dear Stewart,
1) One should not normally begin a sentence with But, since
but
is a word used to co-ordinate two parts of a sentence.
Have a look at Sidney's Arcadia
.
- Original Message -
From: Spring, aus dem, Rainer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: Vihuela vs guitar
Dear Stewart,
1) One should not normally begin a sentence with But, since
Fra: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A rough definition of the vihuela could run in these
terms: a guitar-shaped (a polemic description, I'm
aware, but also a practical one) instrument used in
15th- and 16th century Spain and areas of Spanish
influence, strung with 5 or 6 courses of strings,
-
From: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: vihuela vs guitar
Dear Vance,
You are right to be puzzled; the vihuela is one of the
most polemic and puzzling instruments from the
Renaissance. All I can provide is my own opinion
Dear Goran,
You are perfectly right. I was speaking of the most
common instruments; Juan Bermudo mentions a
seven-course vihuela in his Declaracion de
Instrumentos (1555), and the famous vihuelist Luis de
Guzman is reputed to play on one as well. The 40032
manuscript definitely has pieces for a
Dear Jon,
I thank you for your corrrection, I meant polemic as
an adjective: of, relating to, or being a polemic:
controversial. It should have been polemical. Now to
more interesting bussiness.
--- Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
Antonio,
With Vance I thank you for the
we
now have.
VW
- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: vihuela vs guitar
Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his
instrument a five-course
now have.
VW
- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: vihuela vs guitar
Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his
instrument a five
we
now have.
VW
- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: vihuela vs guitar
Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his
instrument
16th century five- and six-course instruments were
called vihuelas; four-course instruments were
called
guitars. During the late 1570s and early 1580s a
new instrument was developed: the five-course
instrument we call baroque guitar, which was
called
guitarra espa??.
But didn't this
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
16th century five- and six-course instruments
were
called vihuelas; four-course instruments were
called
guitars. During the late 1570s and early 1580s
a
new instrument was developed: the five-course
instrument we call baroque guitar,
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi?? 16th century five-
and six-course instruments
were
called vihuelas; four-course instruments were
called
guitars. During the late 1570s and early 1580s
a
new instrument was developed: the five-course
instrument we call baroque guitar, which
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
escribi?? 16th century five-
and six-course instruments
were
called vihuelas; four-course instruments
were
called
guitars. During the late 1570s and early
1580s
a
new instrument was developed:
Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his
instrument a five-course viguela/vihuela/biguela
(and
there are further variations on the spelling), and
makes it as a five course instrument and we can
all
get on with our lives; Roman as well.
Not quite. BIGUELA UNIVERSAL as opposed to
Again, just opinions, nothing worthwhile to respond
to.
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his
instrument a five-course viguela/vihuela/biguela
(and
there are further variations on the spelling),
and
makes it as a five course
To put it in a nutshell, in Spain, during most of the
16th century five- and six-course instruments were
called vihuelas; four-course instruments were called
guitars. During the late 1570s and early 1580s a
new instrument was developed: the five-course
instrument we call baroque guitar,
--- Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
To put it in a nutshell, in Spain, during most of
the
16th century five- and six-course instruments were
called vihuelas; four-course instruments were
called
guitars. During the late 1570s and early 1580s a
new instrument was developed:
Is the mandora/mandola the same instrument also called
mandore/mandolino...a tiny lute-like instrument tuned in fourths and fifths?
(the instrument of the Skene MS etc)
No. although I didn't actually refer to it, my observations were based on
Renato Meucci's article Da chitarra Italiana a
Yes, I believe this is generally accepted thought on the usual
vihuela. But, this is not in each instance.
The duets of Valderrabano require vihuelas in unison, a third (minor)
apart, a forth apart, and fifth apart. This gives us many possibilities of
pitch, in where to start the
I assume the book in question is Tyler and Sparks
discussion of the mandoline; unfortunately I have not
had the opportunity to read it. However, if previous
works by Tyler could serve as a reference, I would
indeed be careful about what is stated there.
No - its the new book - The
At 08:14 AM 9/17/2004, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Monica,
Is the mandora/mandola the same instrument also called
mandore/mandolino...a tiny lute-like instrument tuned in fourths and
fifths? (the instrument of the Skene MS etc)
I seem to remember - maybe Donald Gill or maybe James Tyler - saying
References to mandola/mandolino arose right around 1600 in Italy. It
typically had a sickle-shaped pegbox terminating in a partial scroll and
finial, courses of paired strings in unison, and initially was tuned
entirely in fourths e'-a'-d-g (low b and g courses were added
subsequently). It
, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: vihuela as guitar
Tyler Sparks (2002) conclusively state that
the
guitar and vihuela were
considered as two distinct instruments in
16th-c.
Spain. The evolution
of
vihuela in Spain and Viola in Italy is usually
placed as a subset
Dear bill
To put it in a nutshell, in Spain, during most of the
16th century five- and six-course instruments were
called vihuelas; four-course instruments were called
guitars. During the late 1570s and early 1580s a
new instrument was developed: the five-course
instrument we call baroque guitar,
bill kilpatrick wrote:
from what i've understood so far, the only difference
between a vihuela and a guitar is the tuning -
variations in shape, sound hole configuration and
number of courses being shared by both.
The same could be said about the guitar and lute...
To get on or off this
Bill,
As I type quickly it is easier for me to quote than to think. The very
valuable (yet cheap) book I picked up at a Somerset Harp festival booth has
its opinions on the topic. (It is a makers gem for those interested in
African and Asian primitive instruments, but also is far more
thanks jon.
so, according to your encylopedia of instruments, it's
tuning that distinguishes one instrument from another,
not its number of courses - right?
in this discussion, as with the vihuela as charango
topic i posted earlier, no one has mentioned a
distinction in how these instruments
Tyler Sparks (2002) conclusively state that the guitar and vihuela were
considered as two distinct instruments in 16th-c. Spain. The evolution of
vihuela in Spain and Viola in Italy is usually placed as a subset of proper
lutes. The topic is still touchy and I believe the distinction blurred
Vihuela had six courses. Check the editions of the 16th c. vihuelists--they include
pieces for 6 cs. vihuela and 4 cs. guitar.
Regards,
Leonard
From: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2004/09/16 Thu AM 03:50:28 EDT
To: [EMAIL
Message -
From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: vihuela as guitar
Tyler Sparks (2002) conclusively state that the
guitar and vihuela were
considered as two distinct instruments in 16th-c.
Spain
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