Hi Chris
My apologies for the delayed response, we are miles behind on E-Mail. I take
your points regarding professional circumstances. You're correct, of course,
in your assertion that one has to use the most appropriate tool to get the job
done quickly and efficiently. I have to confess
Morning Esther,
Multi Markdown is a very very handy thing indeed if you just want to knock out
a very fast and fairly primitive webpage. It's worth a look for those not
bothered about getting into the whole website development thing actually.
Cheers,
Dónal
On 22 Jul 2013, at 22:42, Esther
Hi Mary,
Your use-cases are very interesting and mirror mine. The reality is that
sometimes having a PDF in continuous view mode and just letting voiceover read
it isn't what people need. I frequently need to have Preview set to single
page mode and VO, and this is not a gripe supposition or
Yes, Chris, the busy busy in numbers got to the point where it was ridiculous
and slowed my productivity to a halt. I was using large spread sheets I had
built over time to manage a large amount of data, and finally just had enough
with it with the busy issues and voiceover completely stopping
Hopefully, this did not make the list the first time, as I might have sent
it has a draft this morning before it was complete.
Hi Chris,
Arrogance? Where do you get that from? Maybe, it came across that way in the
vehicle as text, but anyone who knows me knows I am the farthest thing
John,
Could you tell us about the email address you run and how to get on it? I love
to tap multiple sources! If this information isn't appropriate for this list,
could you send it to me directly? Thanks so much!
Desi
mailto:desiandca...@q.com
On Jul 23, 2013, at 12:31 PM, John Panarese
Hi Desi,
I'll answer for John by pointing you to his macfortheblind.com web site that is
listed in his signature. I know that we've picked up a lot of new members from
folks who have visited John's web site. Specifically, if you look on his
Links page of resources and mailing lists, the
John,
Tiger was almost 9 years ago, that is a long time ago, so for the Mac in 2013
still not being able to provide a fully accessible business level or decent
level education class word processing and spreadsheet solution is not
acceptable in my book. Also, I do not think Voiceover is on
I still don't know what you mean that people can't use the Mac in a
professional environment. I think this is strictly your opinion and not
anything based on fact. There are at least a half dozen high end word
processing applications, including iText, Pages Multi Markdown Composer.
Hi Brian
A couple of things here. Firstly, I dispute your assertion that you were
Blasted on this list. In this group we have a policy of no flaming, no
blasting. So if you can highlight any specifics I would like to know about it.
Of course, what you may consider blasting is possibly not
I think it's just a matter of who you're fortunate enough to happen to deal
with in either case. But let me highlight another of these unfortunate issues
with Apple. About 3 years ago now, I highlighted an accessibility issue with
Apple's technical people regarding an issue in their Server
Hi John
Very well taken. You an I know only too well that some of the presumptuous
statements in this thread are way off the mark. I won't say more because I'd
head for trouble if I did. But although I do have some issues with Apple, come
on, just look at the big picture. Just look at what
Hey Gordon,
First, my bad, as I get all these emails in one mail folder, and just assumed
this was the Google group, macvisionaries where several months ago I got
blasted on that one for expressing my opinion about numbers having so many
issues. I have not been blasted on this list which I
John,
I am not negative, I just live in the real world.
If you require very basic small spreadsheets, with voiceover quirks compared to
complex large Excel spreadsheets, then fine. A word processor offering full
Microsoft document support which is the industry standard? None of the word
Gordon,
Apple's hardware is not for debate here, it is second to none and there is
nothing on the pC side that even comes close to the Mac line in my opinion.
Yes, Apple did us a huge favour in bringing build in accessibility. Does it
have to end there though?
The majority of falling PC
It's funny though. People are still doing tasks with spreadsheets and word
processing with what is available. Again, you can be overly critical or you
can be realistic about things. Where there is a will, there is a way. In a
couple of months, this debate will probably have no merit
I totally share your pain with Numbers. I do a great deal of spreadsheet work
and would love to use Numbers. The applications is a nightmare, and such a let
down with Voiceover. Real shame, as it actually has the potential to be very
good. I prefer to use a spreadsheet that can cope with
Gordon,
I rest my case. I have reported numerous bugs to Apple over the years, and
even beta tested previous OS builds. Very few of the bugs were addressed.
I suppose Apple could argue that not many blind users may require
administration services, probably a small audience (despite it
Let's hope John you know something I don't (and I genuinely mean that) and I
know you probably can't say anymore at the risk of breaching NDA.
I would love improved accessibility on Pages and Numbers etc or even tables and
headings support for other Word processors.
I guess I will have to
And I wholeheartedly agree with Chris's various mails. I am an academic who
depends on presentation software. Is Keynote accessible when in slideshow
mode? no. Can one use something like LaTeX in conjunction with the Beamer
package to produce slides in PDF? Yes. Is preview accessible in
Chris
I agree with your comments regarding Office products and I did try to make that
clear in a previous post. There are issues with VoiceOver, Pages and possibly
OS X in general which I do find frustrating. Yes, I think it would be good if
Apple could do something about these issues. But
Donal,
I am pleased you can understand where I am coming from, and I agree with
everything you have said also.
Chris
On 22 Jul 2013, at 19:48, Dónal Fitzpatrick dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie wrote:
And I wholeheartedly agree with Chris's various mails. I am an academic who
depends on
Gordon,
Brian did not say he was blasted on this list, he said he was blasted on the
deluded Mac visionaries list where they are all happy happy smiley Mac people.
Chris
On 22 Jul 2013, at 18:22, Gordon Smith gor...@mac-access.net wrote:
Hi Brian
A couple of things here. Firstly, I
Gordon,
Thanks for your response, and I have no desire to completely jump ship to
Windows. I use Windows for work and Mac for pleasure (and some work). I am a
mac boy, and will just keep nagging them until they eventually listen.
Tables is ok for basic stuff, but try using JAWS with Excel,
Hi,
What about RapidWeaver? I've heard of several people using it, but I haven't
figured it out. There's also another popular one that I forgot the name of.
These are Wisiwig editors.
Orin
orin8...@gmail.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/orinks
Skype: orin1112
On Jul 22, 2013, at 2:27 PM,
I think that is one. To be honest, I don't have the time right now to start
searching archives and list serves, but I know there were solutions offered to
web design Chris is not taking into account. The only really strong point
that has been made is in regard to text tables. Otherwise,
Hi,
I know this may not be exactly what Chris and Dónal are asking for, but for
several types of fast web page design, are people using MultiMarkdown? This is
probably what I would use if I wanted to take care of web pages, and especially
be able to work directly from text files on iOS
John,
Seems to me you didn't really address some of Chris's specific issues with Mac
as compared to his use of Jaws or NVDA with Windows. pdf on the Mac is a joke
compared with Windows; sorry, but cutting and pasting in to text edit isn't my
idea of reasonable access. And the fact that I can't
Alright, I, myself, am a political science major in college. I will admit that
the Mac may have some accessibility issues, but none that can't be fixed with a
bit of software updating and hole patching. I understand that some users have
more high-end demand, and that's fine, but what I use the
Josh,
I'm sorry, but how do you read tables in pdf documents and how do you deal with
those pdf documents you receive which are image onkly? The problem with
expecting pdf docs to be properly tagged is that the huge majority of them are
not, because people don't know anything about tagging pdf
To be completely honest Mary, I've never had to deal with any of those things
as of yet. This, if anything, is the reason why I'm looking to get a secondhand
computer with another operating system.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 22, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Mary Otten motte...@gmail.com wrote:
Josh,
Actually for me black board is usable, unless you want to view an attachment
sent by a professor. That might have changed, but my university I think is
still using black board from 2009. I can use it fine with firefox and another
OS and it is totally usable so there again is a difference of
The way to deal with image only pdfs is to use a service I I found at
http://www.onlineocr.net
You can find my youtube video I did here. In fact the devs loved the thing so
much I got some free creds. lol! And normally my videos suck. lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgFyG6LciRs
Tc
Right, my community college where I attend college is using version nine
something.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 22, 2013, at 8:24 PM, Sarah k Alawami marri...@gmail.com wrote:
Actually for me black board is usable, unless you want to view an attachment
sent by a professor. That might have
Actually, you can also deal with an image only pdf with docuscan plus, which I
have. But there is no way to clean up errors, except laboriously by hand, which
is a time suck, and then when I'm done, I have an html document, which I guess
is ok unless I want to interact and copy bits and pieces,
You can save it as word, rtf and other formats and it works well. Iused it to
read articles sent to me by my prof. Passed the class to. and the service was
almost flawless. Listen to the video. I think I showed a pdf image thing on
there.
Tc all.
On Jul 22, 2013, at 5:38 PM, Mary Otten
Hi Mary,
Here is the problem. Firstly, having been on email lists for years, these
types of discussions come up, people make suggestions and find solutions, and
the subject is lost. Being that I am on so many lists, I have no idea who said
what and where.
My point is, a lot of what people
Mary,
I totally agree with everything you have said.
John, it appears you think I am being harsh an expressing an unfounded sweeping
statement about Mac accessibility. My opinion is based on fact and experience.
You have also assumed that I have not looked for solution either via Google or
John,
My reference to Mac OS X being half baked, was in comparison to iOS. Voiceover
has come on leaps and bounds on iOS since 2009. Has Voiceover come on leaps
and bounds on Mac OS X since 2009? There have been some improvements yes,
still numerous bugs and major missing features.
You are comparing two different animals, Chris. I also think you are being
a bit dismissive. Remember that iOS accessibility came very early in the game
while accessibility with Mac OS X has been going on at the same time Apple has
literally been rewriting all of their core applications.
Chris,
Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've been
convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of
accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent on IOS,
as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with
I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is half
baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a productive tool for
the blind.
I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. We
also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the
Chris,
Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are
things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies to
my own development work (in retrospect) as well.
The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it is
still
Hey All,
Funny as the message you got from Apple on Logic is the same exact response I
have gotten for years from Apple about the awful accessibility of Numbers which
I now no longer use. I got blasted on this list for listing several issues with
mountain lion and voiceover when it came out.
Definitely agree, and I would hate to see them go the way of humanware, not
saying that they or Apple are bad companies, but both companies responses could
definitely be improved a bit.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 20, 2013, at 1:30 PM, Brian Fischler blindga...@gmail.com wrote:
Hey All,
OK, maybe I am missing something here, but I am reading some of the most
ridiculous and assumption ridden posts in this thread. How in the world can
you say the Mac is half-baked? The Mac is just as accessible as Windows at
this point, and for whatever weaknesses you can point out in OS X,
I agree with John there. I think he mac is far superior to windows. In fact I
can attest to that in my sales of the tutorials I have made starting out for a
friend who recommended to me I sell them and get a job as a mac trainer, later
maybe though. I can say that mac is very mud h accessible
Hello:
Totally agree with you. Accessibility is one thing, and trying to compare ways
of doing tasks in one or other OS is different.
I am one of those who use my mac productively every day for my job, and I hand
in professional documents of all kinds, edit videos, Handdle audios, and all at
Hey John, Relax. It is great to read everyone's opinions on the topic. Do some
people go to far saying that Apple isn't committed to accessibility. Sure, but
hey that is their opinion. In my posting, I am just saying, I don't know how
something so simple as web spots can be reversed as it is
There is nothing wrong with opinions and I think I had tried to make that
clear in my post. However, there is a difference between personal opinion and
making blanket statements that you feel reflect what everyone should think. If
you think Mac accessibility is half baked, well, as I
Hey John,
Yes, I agree who ever made the half baked comment seems to be going a little
far.
As for me and numbers, I am not sure what my issue is as the final straw with
using it was the constant VO crashing when using it. I am not sure if crashing
is the appropriate term, what would happen
I don't even have a pc at home anymore. I only use windows for one thing and
that's because there is no mac version of it. Other than, it's the mac all the
way for me, this is for web browsing, email, music, documents, and other things
I can't think of. Anyone who says that accessibility only
Hi Brian,
One of these days, I'd like to sit down with you and hear this happen. It's
easier to actually hear things happening to get an idea of what is going on.
Take Care
John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
Website,
Hey John, sounds like a plan. I'll give you a shout and we can discuss it off
list.
On Jul 20, 2013, at 5:54 PM, John Panarese jpanar...@mac-access.net wrote:
Hi Brian,
One of these days, I'd like to sit down with you and hear this happen.
It's easier to actually hear things happening to
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