2006/8/9, Jan van Thiel [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Hi,
I've read al 82 (!) previous messages with this subject, and came to
the conclusion that
a) we need a simpler guideline for French capitalization;
b) Sentence Case is more in line with the general idea on French capitalization.
This is all my
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Frederic Da Vitoria
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 2:05 PM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
capitalization rules)
mll, please, let us
2006/8/9, MLL [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Frederic Da Vitoria
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 2:05 PM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
capitalization
2006/8/7, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
2006/8/3, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
I often wonder at how difficult it is to discuss when both
participants have the same mother language (French) but use another
language (English) to discuss.
Somewhere between moderatly difficult and
2006/8/7, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
And I still don't know if french is silly, but I know frenchs are -
from my own humble confession :p
I wouldn't be the one to throw you the stone (not sure if this is the
right translation to English :-/). And I have a hunch this is not
specific to French
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Frederic Da Vitoria
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:50 PM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
capitalization rules)
2006/8/7, Mangled [EMAIL
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mangled
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 9:59 PM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
capitalization rules)
Can we start with reaching a consensus
2006/8/8, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
2006/8/8, MLL [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mangled
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 9:59 PM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p
2006/8/1, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On 31/07/06, Bogdan Butnaru [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 7/31/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
2006/7/31, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On 30/07/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hmm, I gather you don't have
Unfortunately as I said, I'm a bit off these days. So a few lagging answers.
2006/7/30, Bogdan Butnaru [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On 7/30/06, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So my main arguments (and as a newcomer in MB I'm taking somewhat a
jazzy responsability in defending these rules I didn't
On 8/1/06, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 31/07/06, Bogdan Butnaru [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Third, the rules should be such that those who know the language are
able to capitalise correctly does not define correctly. In English
there is a _widely_ accepted standard for what
On 01/08/06, Bogdan Butnaru [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 8/1/06, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 31/07/06, Bogdan Butnaru [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Third, the rules should be such that those who know the language are
able to capitalise correctly does not define correctly. In
to respond later, or on the 'morrow.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Frederic Da Vitoria
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:16 AM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization
rules)
Thanks
2006/7/31, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On 30/07/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it hurts your
eyes.
well, isn't that the argument for any capitalisation rule? language is
a tricky subject and i doubt any has a nice
On 7/31/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
2006/7/31, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On 30/07/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it hurts your
eyes.
well, isn't that the argument for any capitalisation
On 7/31/06, Ludovic d'Anchald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-checking mails while on holidays-
I've read all your contributions. Wow. Does every subject stir such a
volume of mails usually ? :)
Not every, but often :)
-- Bogdan Butnaru — [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I think I am a fallen star, I should wish
On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 04:08:14PM +0100, Chris Bransden wrote:
we had the same problem at discogs.com - currently, Ever First Letter
Must Be Capitilised, which is great in that everyone can easily follow
it, but crap in that it just looks wrong to me (i'm English) - i mean
totally wrong! so i
On 31/07/06, Bogdan Butnaru [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 7/31/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
2006/7/31, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On 30/07/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hmm, I gather you don't have any argument, except that it hurts your
eyes.
On 31/07/06, Nikki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 04:08:14PM +0100, Chris Bransden wrote:
we had the same problem at discogs.com - currently, Ever First Letter
Must Be Capitilised, which is great in that everyone can easily follow
it, but crap in that it just looks wrong to
On 7/30/06, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So my main arguments (and as a newcomer in MB I'm taking somewhat a
jazzy responsability in defending these rules I didn't wrote), are:
- flatening all to sentence case is just the *worse* choice
Absolutely not. We have ThIs VeRsIoN too, which I'm
2006/7/30, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Yes, you are right, Beth. See, just 5 minutes and I found a question
to ask to Olivier :-D
Apart from following the example of La Pléiade, what arguments do you
bring in favor of the (in)famous exception
2006/7/28, azertus [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
I really didn't have the energy for such a long, little bit heated,
discussion right now.
Yeah, sure, nikki bite me a bit (where's the first aid by the way?),
but it wasn't heated.
Passion, though, is nice in debate, otherwise debates are consensus,
which
2006/7/28, Nikki [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
The French rules have been like that for over a year, yet the French
releases in the database are largely not following them. Either not enough
people care about fixing them (which I don't think is really true) or it's
just too much work for the people with
2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Yes, you are right, Beth. See, just 5 minutes and I found a question
to ask to Olivier :-D
Apart from following the example of La Pléiade, what arguments do you
bring in favor of the (in)famous exception (which you don't want to
call an
2006/7/27, Nikki [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:13:00AM +0200, Mangled wrote:
Personally I much prefer standard sentence case because it's much
simpler
Being simpler doesn't make it good, or even better. Argument
discarded, says the prosecutor :D
When did I say that it
Except there are only 150 albums marked as Latin and over 5000 as French.
The capitalisation of French titles is already a big problem. It seems to
be a roughly half and half split between sentence and English, so why would
we choose a system that the *vast* majority of people don't use? It
2006/7/27, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Personally I much prefer standard sentence case because it's much simpler
Being simpler doesn't make it good, or even better.
Argument discarded, says the prosecutor :D
It doesn't MAKE it good, but it is a factor. Prosecutor should beware:
he has worked
Summing up arguments, with answers:
a - the exceptions are complex to understand
Only to non native.
Natives have no problem understanding them.
And I disagree with nikki: you *do* *need* to understand a language to
be able to edit/cap it.
b - ambiguous
Example?
c - counter-intuitive
To
2006/7/28, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
2006/7/27, Bogdan Butnaru [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On 7/27/06, Beth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think it Is a mistake to simplify if there are standard rules known. [...]
I think we need to respect the language and artist for each demographic
and culture if
Now, let us look at the problem from another point of view, Olivier.
What would you do if a similar system was chosen for a widely used
language (english, german, italian, spanish...) which you don't
understand but you will want to enter titles in? Will you
1-enter the tracks wrongly, hoping
2006/7/28, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Summing up arguments, with answers:
a - the exceptions are complex to understand
Only to non native.
Natives have no problem understanding them.
Educated natives.
And I disagree with nikki: you *do* *need* to understand a language to
be able to
2006/7/28, Thomas Tholén [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Now, let us look at the problem from another point of view, Olivier.
What would you do if a similar system was chosen for a widely used
language (english, german, italian, spanish...) which you don't
understand but you will want to enter titles in?
I have much respect for La Pléiade, but I happen to have a few books
from them. I took the first one, Dante's Divine Comedy, and here is
what I found: Le passeur, Charon (should have been Le Passeur,
Charon) and later: La tempête infernale. So your champions don't
seem to understand the rules. Or
On 7/28/06, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
2006/7/27, Bogdan Butnaru [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
(I'll say that again: I don't advocate simplifying anything. I
advocate simplifying whenever there is no good reason to do it the
hard way.
The good reason to do it the hard way is that it's common
It doesn't MAKE it good, but it is a factor. Prosecutor should beware:
he has worked too long with computers, he is starting to think binary
;-)
Caught red-handed :D
So to apply the rule, one has to know what is a non-verbal sentence
and recognize one asdsuch in french. I feel this is
2006/7/28, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
I have much respect for La Pléiade, but I happen to have a few books
from them. I took the first one, Dante's Divine Comedy, and here is
what I found: Le passeur, Charon (should have been Le Passeur,
Charon) and later: La tempête infernale. So your
Ok, so now that our apetite for our favorite sport is satisfied, what do we do?
I have to admit my dear contradictors have made a few points, although
some of them are just silly native english just wishing to override us
again :D
All in all, this all boils down to personnal preference...
So,
2006/7/28, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
It doesn't MAKE it good, but it is a factor. Prosecutor should beware:
he has worked too long with computers, he is starting to think binary
;-)
Caught red-handed :D
So to apply the rule, one has to know what is a non-verbal sentence
and recognize one
Thanks for the aspirin :-)
Frankly; if there is only two of us wishing to change the rules,
please spare us the shame of a vote ;-)
2006/7/28, Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Mangled now takes an aspirin and handles one also to davitof :D
2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
2006/7/28, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Thanks for the aspirin :-)
Frankly; if there is only two of us wishing to change the rules,
please spare us the shame of a vote ;-)
Heee, well, if I count these silly english people, you are at least
four, and I feel pretty lonely :)
it so fast, others are certain to respond later, or on the 'morrow.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Frederic Da Vitoria
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:16 AM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French
2006/7/28, Beth [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Oh, I just think you two need to wait for the next wave. ;) ding ding back
to your corners. :) no, seriously I don't feel I can say anything about
this.. I mean, it's you two I always go to for French.. so. :) I probably
should've kept out of the whole thing,
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Frederic Da Vitoria
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:16 AM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)
Thanks for the aspirin :-)
Frankly; if there is only two of us wishing to change the rules,
please spare us
On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 01:35:51PM +0200, Thomas Tholén wrote:
Any one of those will work I suppose. There's not really much meaning to have
caps rules that works for people having no clue whatsoever about the language
in question. They wouldn't even know which words are names, so they couldn't
Mangled schreef:
Except there are only 150 albums marked as Latin and over 5000 as French.
The capitalisation of French titles is already a big problem. It seems to
be a roughly half and half split between sentence and English, so why
would
we choose a system that the *vast* majority of
AM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)
Mangled schreef:
Except there are only 150 albums marked as Latin and over 5000 as French.
The capitalisation of French titles is already a big problem. It seems to
be a roughly half
On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 04:24:04PM +0200, azertus wrote:
The CapitalizationStandardFrench used to say (and probably still says in
the English part) that the exceptions _may_ be used. This statement is
to be reinserted/kept. (possibly the page is a bit rewritten to look
less daunting)
We
On 7/28/06, azertus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Mangled schreef:
*sigh*
Stressing it again: any native french can understand the rules I sumed
up in two lines.
They present difficulties to non-natives, true, but to natives, there
is hardly any teaching required.
I didn't mention this, and I
On 7/28/06, Nikki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
PS: Perhaps using TaggerScript, capitalized titles could be simplified?
If followed by L', Le or La, decapitalize the 2nd [and 3rd ]word?
What about the 4th and 5th words? Are they ever capitalised? How do you
know that those words won't be names?
On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 01:10:48PM +0200, Mangled wrote:
But the situation is completely different. Japanese non-standardness is
widely supported by people who listen to Japanese music and they tend to
defend it fiercely. There is no consensus about the French guidelines and
even many French
I think the only things that would have to be fixed are when word
capitalization is used on all the album tracks, because it's really
ugly when it's French. Pure sentence capitalization is always better
than that.
On 7/28/06, Nikki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 01:10:48PM
I Agree, It Is Ugly :-D
2006/7/28, pankkake [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
I think the only things that would have to be fixed are when word
capitalization is used on all the album tracks, because it's really
ugly when it's French. Pure sentence capitalization is always better
than that.
On 7/28/06, Nikki
Mmmmh you didn' let me lurk very long did you ? :) Moreover, I have my
main PC going in pieces, so I'll try be concise.
(FYI mangled refers to the discussion at the bottom of
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CapitalizationStandardFrench)
First, I want to precise that french is my mother tongue,
On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 06:22:28PM -0600, Beth wrote:
I think it Is a mistake to simplify if there are standard rules known.
After all, we could easily say, it's easier not to fight through artist
intent with an artist that has all their name in lowercase (matchbox
twenty) or Japanese tracks
On 7/27/06, Beth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think it Is a mistake to simplify if there are standard rules known. [...]
I think we need to respect the language and artist for each demographic
and culture if infact we are going to respect any.
I absolutely agree with this. The problem is that
On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:13:00AM +0200, Mangled wrote:
Personally I much prefer standard sentence case because it's much
simpler
Being simpler doesn't make it good, or even better. Argument
discarded, says the prosecutor :D
When did I say that it makes it good or better? I simply stated
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nikki
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:51 AM
To: MusicBrainz style discussion
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)
snip
Again, to me, the fact some/most people don't
On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 07:57:48AM -0600, Beth wrote:
I didn't say that the rules are wrong. However, there is no point in
deciding on rules that nobody except a couple of people use.
I disagree, why else did we have such a discussion on latin, and I feel
if there are rules in place before
On 7/27/06, Beth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[beth] Nikki, sorry, you have extreme knowledge on the Japanese artists,
many of us don't. In my opinion your instance here is looking at this in the
same light many of us see the Japanese guidelines. I believe this was
specifically speaking in terms of
On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 08:41:50PM +0200, Mangled wrote:
First, for these not really familiar with it:
a) French capitalization simply follows sentence mode cap: only the
first letter of the sentence is capped (and the first letter of proper
nouns of course).
b) In the case the title *is not*
Personally I much prefer standard sentence case because it's much simpler
Being simpler doesn't make it good, or even better.
Argument discarded, says the prosecutor :D
[1] to use and is more consistent; capitalising half of the sentence and not
the other half
The so-called exceptions do
2006/7/26, Bogdan Butnaru [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
I'm curious, where did the the idea of the exceptions came from?
They are not exceptions. That's a myth.
They are rules.
There are two rules: one for sentence (sentence mode), and one for non
verbal phrases (cap if it match one of the two schemes)
Sorry for the ignorance, but
A) What's a verbal phrase?
B) What's a proper noun?
//[bnw]
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2006/7/27, Thomas Tholén [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Sorry for the ignorance, but
A) What's a verbal phrase?
errr... now you criticize my english :D
The panda eat bamboo last sunday is a verbal phrase, a sentence.
The Mangled Panda is not.
B) What's a proper noun?
My name is Olivier
My name is not
Nikki writes:
1: Out of our 25 capitalisation standards, 19 are normal sentence case
(i.e. first letter and all proper nouns capitalised), 4 are every word
capitalised except for a short list of conjunctions etc. and just French
and German are complex enough to require the editor to understand
On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:23:39AM +0200, Thomas Tholén wrote:
B) What's a proper noun?
Proper nouns are things like names of people and places.
--Nikki
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Subject: Re: [mb-style] Is french silly? :p (French capitalization rules)
Nikki writes:
1: Out of our 25 capitalisation standards, 19 are normal sentence case
(i.e. first letter and all proper nouns capitalised), 4 are every word
capitalised except for a short list of conjunctions etc
Citerar Mangled [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
2006/7/27, Thomas Tholén [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Sorry for the ignorance, but
A) What's a verbal phrase?
errr... now you criticize my english :D
Nonono, I criticize my own english. I just simply didn't know what they meant.
Thanks!
//[bnw]
The panda eat
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