: Wednesday, 30 November 2016 9:26 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
ES6
Typescript
AngularJS 1.5
Angular2
Aurelia
Polymer
YARN
NPM
react
grunt
gulp
This list extracted from Glav's message should be a hint that JS is on the
fritz, and it's the tip of the iceberg
>
> "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
> Nothing"
>
Sadly, with JS I think so.
I have some other good news through. Many weeks ago someone in here (I
forget sorry!) mentioned a lightweight ORM named Dapper. I had a need for
something like that last week, and I re
gt;
>
Is this a
"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do
Nothing"
argument?
>
>
> - Glav
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Nathan Schultz
> *Sent:*
no leeway to ramp up time.
>>
>> o I am only on the engagement 2 days a week and cannot effectively on
>> ramp it in addition to working on CI/CD, architecture, team process etc.
>>
>> o So far, this is working very well and has been a good decision.
>>
>>
&
my thinking somewhat.
>
>
>
> - Glav
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Adrian Halid
> *Sent:* Monday, 28 November 2016 10:17 AM
> *To:* 'ozDotNet'
> *Subject:* RE: [OT] node.js
otNet'
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express
If you were to start a new Enterprise Web Project which has the potential to be
continually developed and enhanced over 5 to 10 years what web technology
frameworks would you choose?
Regards
Adrian Halid
From: ozdotnet-boun...@oz
28, 2016 12:15 pm
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 at 10:56 Scott Barnes
mailto:scott.bar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
"...Everytime I see a developer use multi-threading I think to myself, thank
you for keeping futur
IMO these "influential technical people" and vendors just see it as an
opportunity to add their name to something new and therefore keep their
jobs a bit longer.
Plus doing the same old thing is boring so anything new can be a good
change even if the old thing was "better".
On Monday, 28 November
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 at 10:56 Scott Barnes wrote:
> "...Everytime I see a developer use multi-threading I think to myself,
> thank you for keeping future consultancy billables alive" - Anonymous
>
Most developers who create messes don't know what a thread is.
Personally, I thank whoever invented
>
> I **think** Greg Keogh started with this with some investigations on how
> hard it was to implement something using framework/technique X. Cool. You
> have learnt what not to do, not how to do something with the latest tech
> just because Scott Hanselmann mentioned it.
>
Yeah sorry, it started
November 2016 11:56 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
To your point about unqualified devs Dave :-
"...Everytime I see a developer use multi-threading I think to myself, thank
you for keeping future consultancy billables alive" - Anonymous
The more chaos the web devs bree
To your point about unqualified devs Dave :-
"...Everytime I see a developer use multi-threading I think to myself,
thank you for keeping future consultancy billables alive" - Anonymous
The more chaos the web devs breed the more the seasoned devs can pick up
the win falls from that.
---
Regard
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 at 10:13 Mark Hurd wrote:
> This is getting an off-topic post even more general, but this thread
> also suggests to me part of why we're a hard industry to get proper
> engineering-level standards applied.
>
I had a great chat about this with one of our engineers last week as
This is getting an off-topic post even more general, but this thread
also suggests to me part of why we're a hard industry to get proper
engineering-level standards applied.
We might start to apply standards, but then the technology shifts from
under us and the standards are out of date. We then n
Behalf Of Paul Glavich
Sent: Monday, 28 November 2016 6:18 AM
To: 'ozDotNet'
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express
Yeah pretty much :)
I am a web guy through and through and I don’t mean to hack on people
specifically, but as an industry it still manifests as real immaturity. I a
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 at 20:32 Paul Glavich
wrote:
> You have learnt what not to do, not how to do something with the latest
> tech just because Scott Hanselmann mentioned it.
>
This made me chuckle.
David.
--
David Connors
da...@connors.com | @davidconnors | LinkedIn | +61 417 189 363
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
So Paul, you're basically saying "The standard we walk past, is the standard we
accept" hehe :)
---
Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.riagenic.com
On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Paul Glavich mailto:subscripti...@theglavs.com>
tioned it.
>
>
>
> Caveat: I am an old bastard. This argument is not new, but it is
> compounded by an increase in velocity in general.
>
>
>
> - Glav
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On
zdotnet.com <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> ]
On Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Friday, 25 November 2016 2:20 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> >
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and ex
o:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Nathan Schultz
> *Sent:* Friday, 25 November 2016 2:20 PM
>
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] node.js and express
>
>
>
> Arguably, a productive web-based RAD tool is exactly the sort of niche
> that Microsoft Li
913
> fax
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>
> --
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com on
> behalf of Scott Barnes
> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2016 12:09:38 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] node.js and express
>
>
> If in VS and not javascript then productive, else not productive.
Not quite, more general: If JavaScript then not productive ;-)
Slick and professional tooling supporting a language ecosystem is of vital
importance to me and I hope others feel the same way. You can buy the
coolest most fanta
gt;
> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2016 12:09:38 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] node.js and express
>
> "It Depends" on what tool you're looking at. If all you're doing is
> staring at Visual Studio and that's it and wondering why the world is so
&
zdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On
Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Friday, 25 November 2016 2:20 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
Arguably, a productive web-based RAD tool is exactly the sort of niche that
Microsoft LightSwitch was trying to fi
e│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com
>
> --
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com on
> behalf of Scott Barnes
> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2016 12:09:38 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] node.js and ex
nder.com>
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com on behalf
of Scott Barnes
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 12:09:38 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
"It Depends" on what tool you're looking at. If all you're doing is staring at
Visual Studio and that&#
gt;
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com | http://greglow.me
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer
> *Sent:* Thursda
24 November 2016 9:41 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express
I guess the conclusion I would draw from that is not so much that the “web
world is so much worse because we have to cater for all these clients” as “the
web world is the only feasible answer to catering for all t
”
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On
Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2016 5:40 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
As I said in my first e-mail, (when Greg was wondering what the key drivers
were for web-development
On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Greg Keogh wrote:
> Totally agree Greg. About 80% of what we are currently building could be
>> done in 1/10 of the time using winforms or mvc.
>>
>
> So there are lots of crazy people in here ... Fabulous!
>
> I can also write Winforms or WPF apps in 1/10 (or far
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Nathan Schultz
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 November 2016 5:10 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] node.js and express
>
>
>
> @Ken, your definition of Technical Debt isn't
gt;
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Nathan Schultz
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 23 November 2016 5:10 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] node.js and express
>
>
>
> @Ken, your definition of Technical De
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On
Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2016 5:10 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
@Ken, your definition of Technical Debt isn't that different from that of
Martin Fow
@Ken, your definition of Technical Debt isn't that different from that of
Martin Fowler's.
Although I'd say (with some seriousness) that JavaScript is Technical Debt
;-)
I've found many of the things you mention far worse in the web-world (where
you sometimes have to cater for everything from a mo
The whole web committee structure is why we are stuck in purgatory quagmire
swamp of hell.
For example, when ECMA 4th Edition almost got legs to move JS forward but
Adobe were being a bit of a political animal when it came to hedging their
technical bets. Basically, at the time Adobe donated a bun
>
> Well, I used Hotdog
>
[This is a Friday topic but] Good god! I remember seeing a prominent
newpaper picture back in 1996 of Steve Outtrim lounging back in his
Ferrari, purchased on the sales of HotDog HTML editor (apparently he was
too young to get insurance for a Porsche). Writing HTML was th
provide much business benefit compared to
those other things
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On
Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 4:05 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
Ken, I'm curious as to why you
reglow.me/>
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On
Behalf Of Ken Schaefer
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 3:14 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express
A couple of possible reasons:
- All the emphasis is on centrally delivered appli
the full technical cost of development
>> when something’s centrally delivered. It’s easier to incur “technical debt”
>> when you build a little thick-client app – the real cost of the app gets
>> buried in IT operations.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
&g
nt app – the real cost of the app gets
> buried in IT operations.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Greg Low (??????)
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 22 November 2016 2:33 PM
>
(??)
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 2:33 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express
But that’s a centralized vs distributed argument. I understand that. By why
exactly does a centralized development process have to be orders of magnitude
slower than a distributed one? I just think
L Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com | http://greglow.me
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com ] *On Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 22 November 2016 2:29 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* RE: [OT] node.js and e
http://greglow.me<http://greglow.me/>
From: Greg Low (罗格雷格博士)
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 2:33 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express
But that’s a centralized vs distributed argument. I understand that. By why
exactly does a centralized development process have to be orders
2 November 2016 2:29 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 1:53 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdot
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>
[mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>] On
Behalf Of Stephen Price
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016 6:59 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On
Behalf Of Nathan Schultz
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 1:53 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
But many of the same problems persist on the web, and the web has brought
entirely new challenges
gt; fax
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com | http://greglow.me
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Price
> *Sent:* Monday, 21 November 2016 6:59 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re: [
an ecosystem of hundreds (or
> thousands) of thick-clients in your environment.
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Nathan Schultz
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 22 November 2016 12:46 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re:
Nathan Schultz
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 12:46 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
@Ken; except that thick clients also are easier to debug and maintain as well;
to another ☺
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On
Behalf Of Greg Low (??)
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 12:25 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express
What do you see as the key drivers Ken?
I can guess as I spend my life in these
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
Ack.. meant OutSystems IS a heavy solution.
On 22 November 2016 at 09:45, Nathan Schultz mailto:milish...@gmail.com> > wrote:
@Ken; except that thick clients also are easier to debug and maintain as well;
in fact the whole life-cy
gt;
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
>> fax
>>
>> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.
...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@
> ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Schaefer
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 22 November 2016 12:15 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* RE: [OT] node.js and express
>
>
>
> Typical Devs – all they talk about is how much faster/quicker they can
>
ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On
Behalf Of Ken Schaefer
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 12:15 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: RE: [OT] node.js and express
Typical Devs – all they talk about is how much faster/quicker they can write an
app in one tech vs. another. As if that’s the onl
...@ozdotnet.com] On
Behalf Of DotNet Dude
Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2016 9:15 AM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
Totally agree Greg. About 80% of what we are currently building could be done
in 1/10 of the time using winforms or mvc.
Some of our clients are even TELLING us how to
I follow a number of CSS and javascript blogs, the boss thinks it's so I
can stay ahead of the wave. The real reason is it gives me a chuckle every
day when they try to solve a problem that they themselves inflicted by
using a precompiler/framework that wasn't really needed in the first place.
A c
On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 9:43 AM, David Connors wrote:
> 80% of the cost of an application starts after you finish dev and a well
> written modern, responsive web app costs very little to maintain (and works
> on all the things both network and device).
>
>
Not in my experience. I'm yet to see on
On Tue, 22 Nov 2016 at 07:33 Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) wrote:
There is no doubt that a full stack angular/rest/json is more expensive to
build than WinForms (or MS Access). In any case where the app is widely
used by a large number of users I think the cost is justified.
We started building web apps bec
>
> Totally agree Greg. About 80% of what we are currently building could be
> done in 1/10 of the time using winforms or mvc.
>
So there are lots of crazy people in here ... Fabulous!
I can also write Winforms or WPF apps in 1/10 (or far less) the time of
equivalent JS code. I have also had Clic
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com | http://greglow.me
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-b
;
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913
> fax
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com | http://greglow.me
>
>
>
> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@ozdot
> net.com] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Price
> *S
ttp://www.sqldownunder.com/> |
http://greglow.me<http://greglow.me/>
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On
Behalf Of Stephen Price
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016 6:59 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
Goodness, you are not
2016 4:06 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
On Monday, 21 November 2016, Stephen Price
mailto:step...@lythixdesigns.com>> wrote:
Goodness, you are not alone.
I'm more surprised that you are surprised, that's all.
Some links to confirm you are not alone (
Don't waste your time with nodejs, it's an unmitigated nightmare. Someone will
mention portability somewhere in the conversation and then you know how high
the BS is.
People hate microsoft, and especially .net because they have been around for
longer than they can remember, it will pass
Dav
n...@ozdotnet.com
> <
> ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com
> > on
> behalf of Greg Keogh >
> *Sent:* Monday, 21 November 2016 2:48:54 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet
> *Subject:* Re: [OT] node.js and express
>
>
> You're not alone Greg. It's like going back to spaghetti but everyone
>> around me doesn't agree.
>>
>
> Thanks heavens someone is sympathetic. I thought I was crazy, but I'm glad
> to know you are too! -- *Greg*
>
___
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com on behalf
of Greg Keogh
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016 2:48:54 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: [OT] node.js and express
You're not alone Greg. It's like going back to spaghetti but everyone around me
doesn't agree.
Thanks heavens someone is s
> You're not alone Greg. It's like going back to spaghetti but everyone
> around me doesn't agree.
>
Thanks heavens someone is sympathetic. I thought I was crazy, but I'm glad
to know you are too! -- *Greg*
You're not alone Greg. It's like going back to spaghetti but everyone
around me doesn't agree. Hey just a few years ago I could create a a whole
web app in 10 minutes but now I have to go and get tens of packages in the
dependency chain and glue them together and become a plumber to make it all
wor
I think they use "Javascript" with cookies to serve you ads on teh
internets.
On Mon, 21 Nov 2016 at 11:01 Stephen Price
wrote:
> What are you doing?! JavaScript hasn't passed the "Tested by Greg Keogh"
> certification. You shouldn't be in there touching that stuff!
>
> You've only yourself to b
What are you doing?! JavaScript hasn't passed the "Tested by Greg Keogh"
certification. You shouldn't be in there touching that stuff!
You've only yourself to blame. Don't poke the angry bear.
On 21 Nov. 2016 6:01 am, Greg Keogh wrote:
Folks, although I've been insulting JavaScript for years, I
If you are doing a Javascript centric project (Node, Angular) you will be
better suited using Visual Studio Code.
Craig
On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Greg Keogh wrote:
> Folks, although I've been insulting JavaScript for years, I have always
> liked scripting. I decided to install node.js an
Folks, although I've been insulting JavaScript for years, I have always
liked scripting. I decided to install node.js and run the tutorials on how
to make a REST service. There are lots of tutorials, many of them
contradictory or incomplete, or the documented steps don't work as
expected. After con
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