Yes. But ultimately, eventually, it's sensor size, whether they're chemical
or electronic photon catchers, that determines maximum obtainable image
quality. Having a camera whose physical size is pefect for the hand and
can/could accommodate a full frame but has an APS sized sensor really feels
Having read this thread for a while now, I have a few random thoughts:
1. I have a 645 camera that fits fine in my hand. I never felt cheated
that my 35 mm cameras couldn't take a larger format even the advantages
of the larger format are obvious. The very definition of the 24x36
sensor as full
On Oct 15, 2007, at 11:42 AM, Steve Desjardins wrote:
BTW, I just picked that number out of the air; I have no idea what the
cheapest FF DSLR costs.
Just FYI, this whole round of FF debate was predicated on a rumor
that Canon would be releasing a 24x36 mm sensor body in the
inexpensive
I don't feel cheated, but... well maybe. Recall that we were expecting a FF
DSLR camera from Pentax, first one out the door. OK, that's water under the
bridge, but the technology existed then (albeit likely implemented
incorrectly) for a FF DSLR. Four - five years later things have changed.
Well, that's you, and you were talking about you and that's good. I was
talking about me. No one should assume that I'm implying that others should
want what I want. FYI, I also own a 645NII with a 645 for backup as well as
a 67II with a 67 for backup. I find the 35mm size to be just perfect
Sure. We all buy what we buy based on our own needs, wants, finances,
permission from the wife, etc. g
Pentax has to consider it's entire market. Maybe they have enough RD
money from Hoya to flirt with a $2K FF DSLR. I'd be glad to see it just
for what it would represent. I also know that
I too was getting excellent results from my non-digital-optimized
lenses. Only problem was, non of them were wide enough. I looked all
over the place, but couldn't find a rectilinear lens wider than 15mm
in the Pentax stable.
Of course, once I bought one DA lens, it was easier to buy a second
one,
I was first motivated to buy DA lenses for the same reason. I had to have wide
glass to shoot room and car interiors. The DA 16-45 was a partial solution, and
it turned out to be an excellent all-around lens as well. The DA 12-24 has
proven to be an even better lens and an optimum solution for
I understand. I've often wished for a wider lens, I just haven't been
willing to pay for one.
Tom C.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA
On 15/10/07, P. J. Alling, discombobulated, unleashed:
You and JCO should get a Condo together.
I have lots of visions and double-entendres dancing in my head now, non
of them pleasant.
--
Cheers,
Cotty
___/\__
|| (O) | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|
On 15/10/07, Adam Maas, discombobulated, unleashed:
Frankly, Sony and Canon (Manufacturers of the Sensors
being discussed)
Frankly sensors aren't very sharp - they suffer from a sort of built-in
motion blur
--
Cheers,
Cotty
___/\__
|| (O) | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|
Daft! :-)
Tom C.
From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 15/10/07, Adam Maas, discombobulated, unleashed:
Frankly, Sony and Canon (Manufacturers of the Sensors
being discussed)
Frankly sensors aren't very sharp - they suffer from a sort of built-in
motion blur
--
Cheers,
Cotty
___/\__
Then I my work is done.
Cotty wrote:
On 15/10/07, P. J. Alling, discombobulated, unleashed:
You and JCO should get a Condo together.
I have lots of visions and double-entendres dancing in my head now, non
of them pleasant.
--
Remember, it’s pillage then burn.
--
PDML
Normally, I wouldn't have seen this, Allings been on my killfile for
quite some time, along with joc.. My disparaging comment was simply
because I understood exactly what Adam was saying, and Alling seemed
to be practicing deliberate stupidity on the subject.
Peter, don't cry because I am mean if
Insidious, isn't it?
Regards,
Bob...
Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a reflection.
-Jean Luc Godard
- Original Message -
From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I too was getting excellent results
On 15/10/07, Bob Blakely, discombobulated, unleashed:
Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a reflection.
-Jean Luc Godard
Make it so.
- Jean Luc Picard
;-)
--
Cheers,
Cotty
___/\__
|| (O) | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|
From: mike wilson
Tom C wrote:
Overall I agree with what Peter is saying (and have always felt
this way since the introduction of the *ist D)... that is, when FF
sensors become economical enough to be mainstream, Pentax must make
a FF body or be regarded as a 2nd rate toy camera
, October 15, 2007 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
On 15/10/07, Bob Blakely, discombobulated, unleashed:
Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a reflection.
-Jean Luc Godard
Make it so.
- Jean Luc Picard
John Sessoms wrote:
From: mike wilson
Tom C wrote:
Overall I agree with what Peter is saying (and have always felt
this way since the introduction of the *ist D)... that is, when FF
sensors become economical enough to be mainstream, Pentax must make
a FF body or be regarded as a 2nd rate
- Original Message -
From: John Sessoms
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
If memory serves the other two are an over-priced Nissan and an
over-priced Honda.
I guess that depends on what your personal comfort is worth.
William Robb
- Original Message -
From: John Sessoms
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
If memory serves the other two are an over-priced Nissan and an
over-priced Honda.
I guess that depends on what your personal comfort is worth.
William Robb
My
Godard
- Original Message -
From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: pentax list PDML@pdml.net
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
On 15/10/07, Bob Blakely, discombobulated, unleashed:
Art is not a reflection
of a reflection.
-Jean Luc Godard
- Original Message -
From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: pentax list PDML@pdml.net
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
On 15/10/07, Bob Blakely, discombobulated, unleashed
Message -
From: John Sessoms
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA)
?
If memory serves the other two are an over-priced Nissan and an
over-priced Honda.
I guess that depends on what your personal comfort is worth.
William Robb
My analogy
that Canon and Nikon do at major sporting
events. Pentax products lack presence on store shelves in the USA. Etc.
Tom C wrote:
- Original Message -
From: John Sessoms
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA)
?
If memory serves the other two are an over
- Original Message -
From: Tom C
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
My analogy was not about price, it was about image, prestige, perception
in
the market place. Sure a FF DSLR will cost more than one with an APS-C
size
sensor
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:20:34 -0400
Why? Pentax has never been a player in the Pro 35mm market. Not being
one now will make little difference.
I expect to see them bring out a body above the K10D within the next 6
months
Mail List pdml@pdml.net
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:20:34 -0400
Why? Pentax has never been a player in the Pro 35mm market. Not being
one now will make little difference.
I
My analogy was not about price, it was about image, prestige, perception
in
the market place. Sure a FF DSLR will cost more than one with an APS-C
size
sensor. If the Canons, Nikon's, Sony's of the world offer FF DSLR's,
then
Pentax must also. If they do not, they will relegate
What % are you? :-)
Tom C.
From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:32:32 -0400
I use vi
-Adam
Always
My analogy was not about price, it was about image, prestige,
perception in
the market place. Sure a FF DSLR will cost more than one with an
APS-C size
sensor. If the Canons, Nikon's, Sony's of the world offer FF
DSLR's, then
Pentax must also. If they do not, they will relegate
.
From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA)
?
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:20:34 -0400
Why? Pentax has never been a player in the Pro 35mm
...
Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a reflection.
-Jean Luc Godard
- Original Message -
From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: pentax list PDML@pdml.net
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2007 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone
- Original Message -
From: Godfrey DiGiorgi
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
For a second rate company, they do pretty well.
Try shooting with a mid range or higher Canon somtime.
Have a look at the D40.
In 1972, Pentax was still more or less
.
From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:20:34 -0400
Why? Pentax has never been a player in the Pro 35mm
On Oct 15, 2007, at 10:02 PM, William Robb wrote:
For a second rate company, they do pretty well.
Try shooting with a mid range or higher Canon somtime.
Owned them, did that.
Have a look at the D40.
Not interested. thanks though. I'd buy a Nikon or an Olympus first.
Canon lenses don't
Yep, that's why the new Nikon D3 has been cited has having superior
noise performance at very high sensitivities. Same argument always made
with film bigger is better. Physics dictates that a larger sensor site
is better than a smaller site. You can correct with software, (or
firmware if it's
Note the D3 is the camera whose performance I'm quoting at the end of my
previous post. Its performance is incredible, but also far more than I
have any actual need for, especially with SR.
When the 5D was the current high-ISO king, people were saying you
couldn't get that type of performance
What you need, and what Pentax needs to do, are two different things.
Try this on for size If I could get that kind of performance without
SR, I wouldn't need SR. You probably won't acknowledge that that
statement makes as much sense as your argument. Yet that's converse of
your argument, and
P. J. Alling wrote:
Sony has been slow up to now because they are feeling things out, they
are probably still integrating the K/M engineers and project managers
into Sony's culture. Sony sales managers insist on the cameras being
profitable, and they are milking the old K/M system as much as
Different spin than I was looking at. I'm not saying weather Pentax can
succeed or not. I'm just stating what they have to do. Personal
preferences aside. I agree that Pentax is faced with a dilemma, the same
one that faced them when the MZ-S/MZ-D was going to be introduced.
Pentax thought
PS digitals. One will
probably be a Canon and the other a Panasonic.
I'd be happy to see a Pentax FF body at any price.
Tom C.
From: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax
of a reflection.
-Jean Luc Godard
- Original Message -
From: Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: pdml@pdml.net
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
P. J. Alling wrote:
Sony has been slow up to now because
On 14/10/07, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed:
I'd be happy to see a Pentax FF body at any price.
They put a modern 36X24 CMOS into the MZ-D and I will sell all my Canon
gear on the spot.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/EVENTS/PMAS01/982079635.html
**sigh***
--
Cheers,
Cotty
In other words, not likely. And that's okay with me.
Paul
On Oct 14, 2007, at 11:02 AM, Adam Maas wrote:
Note the D3 is the camera whose performance I'm quoting at the end
of my
previous post. Its performance is incredible, but also far more than I
have any actual need for, especially with
Tom C wrote:
Overall I agree with what Peter is saying (and have always felt this way
since the introduction of the *ist D)... that is, when FF sensors become
economical enough to be mainstream, Pentax must make a FF body or be
regarded as a 2nd rate toy camera manufacturer. The Hyundai
Cotty wrote:
On 14/10/07, Tom C, discombobulated, unleashed:
I'd be happy to see a Pentax FF body at any price.
They put a modern 36X24 CMOS into the MZ-D and I will sell all my Canon
gear on the spot.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/EVENTS/PMAS01/982079635.html
**sigh***
On 14/10/07, mike wilson, discombobulated, unleashed:
But what about the mutants?
Oh the PDML will survive ;-)
--
Cheers,
Cotty
___/\__
|| (O) | People, Places, Pastiche
||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com
_
--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
P. J. Alling wrote:
What you need, and what Pentax needs to do, are two different things.
Try this on for size If I could get that kind of performance without
SR, I wouldn't need SR. You probably won't acknowledge that that
statement makes as much sense as your argument. Yet that's converse
I'm sorry, haven't you been paying attention. Every review I've read
that doesn't gloss over high ISO performance mentions the loss of detail
at high ISO in the 10+ mp bodies. Pentax simply doesn't offer 3200 ISO
on the K10D, makes you wonder why. Well maybe you don't and I don't but
for
I have been paying attention and you obviously haven't. You're talking
about the older 10+MP bodies (K10D, D2X, D200, D80, D40X, A100) with
last-generation CCD or CMOS sensors. The new 10/12MP CMOS sensors
introduced in the last month or so ( in the D300, 40D, and A700) have
massively improved
Bob Blakely wrote:
From my point of view...
Only so many photons are captured by a sensor element (pixel, if you will)
of a given size and that to a certain efficiency. There is an upper limit.
Further, everything that has a temperature generates noise in proportion to
that temperature.
Did you actually read the current Modern Photograpy review. I'll
paraphrase they found that it had impressive built in anti noise
software. You're mistaking firmware with physics.
Adam Maas wrote:
I have been paying attention and you obviously haven't. You're talking
about the older 10+MP
I only use that example because I just read it this evening. Not
because it was my original source.
P. J. Alling wrote:
Did you actually read the current Modern Photograpy review. I'll
paraphrase they found that it had impressive built in anti noise
software. You're mistaking firmware with
No, I don't read that magazine(in fact I can't find anything about such
a title on Google), and exactly which body are you referring to (All
three have different sensor designs, although the D300 and A700's
sensors are related). If you're talking popular photography, they don't
say any such
The Nikon D300 of course first look on a magazine rack. I read the
article on paper, in a book store, you remember paper don't you?
Look simple math, assuming the sensor sites have no spacing between them
will tell you that the capture sites are too small already, to be as
effective as they
P. J. Alling wrote:
The Nikon D300 of course first look on a magazine rack. I read the
article on paper, in a book store, you remember paper don't you?
Yeah, I remember paper. I read a few paper mags. I've yet to see one
that does equipment reviews even a tenth as good as the major
You really don't understand much about the physics of light. You can't
get something for nothing. But in a way that's besides the point.
Something else you don't get about bigger is always better weather
you're talking about film or some other sensor technology, bigger will
be better. No
- Original Message -
From: Adam Maas
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
It has in the case of the 40D and A700, the
former matching its FF brethren(5D) for high ISO performance according
to reputable sources (like LL)
A buddy of mine just
: Joseph Tainter [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: pdml@pdml.net
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
P. J. Alling wrote:
Sony has been slow up to now because they are feeling things out, they
are probably still integrating
: Adam Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA) ?
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:24:09 -0400
Bob Blakely wrote:
From my point of view...
Only so many
Actually, I've got a pretty decent handle on the physics of light, it
appears you have little handle on what improving fill factor means in
reality (Larger effective sensor sites at a given resolution and sensor
size). And yes, bigger IS better. That's exactly why the new sensors
have improved
If Pentax doesn't address sensor size in the K mount line they'll still
be only second rate no matter how many nifty new lenses and bodies they
introduce. I can live with slower frame rates, I can deal with noisy
autofocus, (heck my low light walking around kit consists of three
lenses and
I could care less what size sensor they use as long as the camera and
lenses perform as I need.
I'm not having any problems with my 4/3 System camera either. Last
two pictures I sold were made at ISO 800 using the L1 body and a
Pentax lens.
Rumors ... there are always rumors. I look
That's not necessarily so. The newest crop of APS-C-ish sensors (In the
D300, A700 and 40D) have noise performance as good or better than the
last crop of FF sensors. 5D level noise performance is good enough for
me (As much as I'd like ISO 25,600 as my max ISO and ISO 6400
performance that
Perfectly put. And very reassuring. Thanks!
Carl
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
Godfrey DiGiorgi
Sent: 13. oktober 2007 22:00
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: anyone in the know (even under NDA)
?
I could
http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-releases/13173-pentax-news-something-interesting-really.html
Interesting thread. Some intriguing quotes:
-
Quote 1:
Hoya is a huge supplier of lens blanks for many companies, including the
big two. That merger only spells major positives,
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