[This exchange originated on the Marxism list in response to the Braverman
piece I posted.]
Phil Ferguson:
PS: I few months ago I went to a seminar in the Department of Management
Studies here. One of our subscribers, who's doing her PhD there, was
presenting a departmental seminar on the
G'day Pen-pals,
I see the Australian Institute of Management have felt the slings and arrows
of US jurisdiction without having to buy a plane ticket. They've just
listed a 20-year-old course called 'Effective Negotiation Skills' on their
web site. And now it's gone. A US training group called
MoneyChanger has just recently registered the names Jesus Christ (tm),
Mother Mary (tm), God the Father (tm), and the Holy Ghost (tm), It is
suing the Roman Catholic Church for a trillion dollars in damages and
interest on the grounds of trademark infringement.
Their basic argument is that a
Public choice is simply theories that try to
explain the behavior of the state and/or its
officials.
A good neutral review of the lit -- the standard
one, actually -- from a mainstream standpoint is
by Dennis Mueller.
The better sort of lit gives full play to how
the interests of capital
Max:
Thanks for the note about public choice theory. In truth, if you are
talking about theories of the state, I'm more partial to O'Connor and Poulantzas.
Nonetheless, I'm curious about your notion that "the executive committee
of the bourgeoisie" could also be conceptualized as public choice
Max writes: If you think the state is the executive committee of the
bourgeoisie, than you are a public choice theorist too.
The Virginia public choice school would not agree (even though they share
the view that politics is endogenous with Marxian political economy).
The Virginia school
Did you hear that GM is buying up the words "communism", "Marxism", "Leninism",
"dialectics" and "materialism" ?
In the dialectic of freedom of speech, things are turning into their opposite. "You
have the right to remain silent" is no longer a Fourth Constitutional Amendment right,
but a
Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/00 12:14PM
A much broader political alliance could be formed, if it was simply shown
that a large number of people lack the necessities of life in a late
capitalist economy. Do not have suitable, housing, education, health care,
etc. Talk about reparations to
Joel Blau writes:
snip
It is important to make the economic point that historically, a
significant part of capital accumulation in the United States came from
slave labor.
Right. Which is why the comparison cases put forward are additionally
problematic. We are not simply talking about
The Virginia school is not the beginning and end
of public choice theory. For instance, there is
a median voter theory that explains how, under
completely fantastical conditions, the median
voter is decisive in electoral matters. There
is lit on how bureaus and politicians manipulate
electoral
At 03:54 PM 2/10/00 -0500, you wrote:
The Virginia school is not the beginning and end
of public choice theory. For instance, there is
a median voter theory that explains how, under
completely fantastical conditions, the median
voter is decisive in electoral matters
in the Krugman column
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Max Sawicky
I used a median voter model for my dissertation.
The R-squares were beyond belief. I was more
worried about them being too good than the
contrary.
Do tell Max. What was your
Doesn't the Virginia school merge into the literature on rent seeking -- although
the typical nasty rent seekers are labor unions and lawyers and the like?
Jim Devine wrote:
The Virginia school assumes that each voter's impact in the election is the
same as each of the other voters (and
Brad De Long wrote:
Brad De Long wrote:
Why is there this extraordinary--eager--desire to take Keynes's
quote out of context?
Remarkable, isn't it? Didn't Hayek offer the charming interpretation
that Keynes's queerness made him not care about the future?
Doug
I missed this. Where?
Dunno,
URGENT MEMO !
"EDUCATORS FOR MUMIA" NYTIMES AD NEEDS YOUR HELP NOW!
From Mark Taylor, Coordinator of the "Educators for Mumia" Ad Campaign.
___
With Mumia Abu-Jamal facing the very important Federal decision
expected this
Actually, John Roemer's argument about the political-economic effects of
concentrated wealth is the sort of Marxoid public choice theory Max is talking
about. (See: A Future for Socialism.)
Peter
Jim Devine wrote:
Max writes: If you think the state is the executive committee of the
I was told but was unable to confirm that Disney's copyright of the Tasmanian
devil restricted what could be written about it in Australia. Urban legend?
Rob Schaap wrote:
G'day Pen-pals,
I see the Australian Institute of Management have felt the slings and arrows
of US jurisdiction
I used a median voter model for my dissertation.
The R-squares were beyond belief. I was more
worried about them being too good than the
contrary.
In models "median voter" is represented by
median income, which clearly could be influential
for reasons outside the voting process.
mbs
Doesn't the Virginia school merge into the literature on rent seeking --
although
the typical nasty rent seekers are labor unions and lawyers and the like?
yes.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://liberalarts.lmu.edu/~jdevine
I was told but was unable to confirm that Disney's copyright of the Tasmanian
devil restricted what could be written about it in Australia. Urban legend?
I can tell you one thing about Disney and copyright. I entered a boolean
search on the two words in Nexis, which used the default 'within six
Max writes: If you think the state is the executive committee of
the bourgeoisie, than you are a public choice theorist too.
*Sigh*
Marx did not write in the _Manifesto_ that the state is the executive
committee of the bourgeoisie.
He wrote that the executive of the modern state is a
*Sigh*
Marx did not write in the _Manifesto_ that the state is the executive
committee of the bourgeoisie.
He wrote that the executive of the modern state is a committee for
managing the affairs of the bourgeoisie--suggesting that the
democratically-elected legislature of the modern state is
Yeah, all the AMs are lefty pub choicers. See also Pzrzworski on social democracy. I
am having been developing a version of the argument that Marx's state theory is a pub
choice view for a paper I am working on about Marx and the rule of law, although
admittedly my motive is partly to annoy
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Louis Proyect
I can tell you one thing about Disney and copyright. I entered a boolean
search on the two words in Nexis, which used the default 'within
six month'
time-frame, and it failed because
At 14:01 10/02/00 -0500, Louis Proyect wrote:
There is no real difference between Marx and Lenin on the theory of the
state. Lenin's "State and Revolution" was based on both the example of the
Paris Commune--the prototype for a workers state--and various writings by
Marx and Engels.
Lenin,
Brad De Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/10/00 01:43PM
Max writes: If you think the state is the executive committee of
the bourgeoisie, than you are a public choice theorist too.
*Sigh*
Marx did not write in the _Manifesto_ that the state is the executive
committee of the bourgeoisie.
CB:
Max writes: If you think the state is the executive committee of the
bourgeoisie, than you are a public choice theorist too.
Brad sighs:
Marx did not write in the _Manifesto_ that the state is the executive
committee of the bourgeoisie.
He wrote that the executive of the modern state is a
if the working class is well organized and class conscious (as in
Chile in 1970), not only may the legislature but the executive may be
subordinated to non-bourgeois forces.
The problem, of course, is that in the Chilean case, the repressive
component of the state (the armed forces)
What do you mean by political economy was rescued from the left by James
Buchanan and the Virginia School.
Warm regardsGeorge Pennefather
Be free to check out our Communist Think-Tank web site athttp://homepage.eircom.net/~beprepared/
Be free to subscribe to our Communist Think-Tank mailing
I was recently thinking about Robinson's call for reparations. Suppose
that United States was called upon to pay reparations for what they
imposed on the slaves, what they took from the indigenous people, the
damage that they caused through imperialism. How many years of gross
domestic product
Brad, your comment, as usual was clever, but I was aiming at something
something else -- that our system is both extractive and exploitative.
Brad De Long wrote:
I was recently thinking about Robinson's call for reparations. Suppose
that United States was called upon to pay reparations for
I was told but was unable to confirm that Disney's copyright of the Tasmanian
devil restricted what could be written about it in Australia. Urban legend?
Nope. Absolutely true. The Tasmanian Trade Commission wanted to use a
Tassie Devil as the graphic fulcrum of an expensively produced
Chris:
I discussed more fully on marxism-thaxis Gramsci's view of the state, which
I had raised here at the beginning of the year but did not pursue on this
list. The discussion on the executive of the bourgeoisie however makes it
relevant to return to the subject.
Well, okay. I am coming over
I was recently thinking about Robinson's call for reparations. Suppose
that United States was called upon to pay reparations for what they
imposed on the slaves, what they took from the indigenous people, the
damage that they caused through imperialism. How many years of gross
domestic product
http://www.house.gov/ways_means/trade/106cong/tr-18wit.htm
Ian
SPECIAL NOTE: MORE ON HAIDER AT "LATEST ANTI-FASCIST READINGS"
via http://www.anti-fascism.org
__
The Internet Anti-Fascist: Tuesday, 8 February 2000
Vol. 4, Number
Rob:
Then there's the Marxish reservation that you can't go around impoverishing
the rest of the world for long, seeing as how you have to grow markets if
you want to grow profits.
It is important not to rely on too literal an interpretation of this bit of
"Marxish" doctrine. Impoverishment has
Lou,
Please do not accuse others here of being racist.
I had been thinking about reparations in the context of understanding what our
economy does. The economy grows. NASDAQ soars. But I have a sneaking
suspicion that the negative side of the balance sheet may exceed the positive
side.
From
Michael Perelman wrote:
Brad, your comment, as usual was clever, but I was aiming at something
something else -- that our system is both extractive and exploitative.
Clever? How about racist. It is one thing to make a Rush Limbaugh type
comment--and this is exactly what it is--on a list that has
On Behalf Of Rob Schaap
Nope. Absolutely true. The Tasmanian Trade Commission wanted to use a
Tassie Devil as the graphic fulcrum of an expensively produced marketing
strategy in 1998. Disney threatened legal action - on a critter
that looks
nothing like their fanciful version - and
" . . . Clever? How about racist. . . .
Oh please.
I heard a paper at the AEA meetings by Cecilia Conrad
about reparations which took one of her relatives as a
point of departure. There was apparently a very clear
system of discriminatory pay in New Orleans, where
the aunt was a school teacher
Microsoft Timeline
Business @ the Speed of Thought
Remarks by Bill Gates
Georgetown University School of Business
March 24, 1999
QUESTION: During the course of the presentation, you mentioned job
reduction a number of times. While, as business students, we can all
Max:
At some point, however, going back in time becomes
an exercise in political rhetoric rather than one
of social justice. How far back is appropriate?
Its not about going back in time. It is about political power. Zionism was
a joint project of Jewish ruling-class figures and Anglo-American
Although to keep our villians straight, wouldn't that have been Warner
Brothers (I mean Time-Warner, I mean AOL-TimeWarner) doing the suing?
Quite right, Nathan - it musta been AOLTimeWarnerEMI. Sorry 'bout that,
chief.
Heaven forbid we confuse the more subtle humor and satire of Bugs Bunny
It is important not to rely on too literal an interpretation of this bit of
"Marxish" doctrine. Impoverishment has to be seen in a dialectical manner.
In other words, "impoverishment" is simply not happening.
we will be facing a general political and economic situation
where "impoverishment"
To make the point that a substantial part of the wealth moved by
"reparations" is moved to people--like Alexis Herman, Thomas Sowell,
Ward Connerly, Vernon Jordan--who don't especially need it (hell,
it's highly probable that at least one of my ancestors involuntarily
took the middle passage
K
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
on 11/2/00 3:19 pm, Brad De Long at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, we haven't, have we? The physiocrats in 1770 were really
worried about mass urban unemployment that would follow should the
agricultural share
Lou
Can you document this? It is of some historical interest.
Rod
Louis Proyect wrote:
2) the United States
Government promised ex-slaves forty acres and a mule and did not make
good
on that promise;
--
Rod Hay
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The History of Economic Thought Archive
from Scott Shuger's SLATE "Today's Papers" column:
The NYT quotes a Treasury Dept. finding lending much perspective to the
marriage penalty discussion: according to the latest available figures,
nearly the same number of people pay [get?] a marriage bonus (21 million
joint returns) as pay a
another comment: the above suggests that perhaps capitalism has
_never_ produced a surplus-product. Rather, all of the surplus that
was spent on capitalist accumulation and rich people's luxuries and
the like was simply the result of _redistribution_ from other people.
Then why is infant
G'day Brad,
The US has low unemployment for a variety of reasons, I'd've thought. Some
may have to do with the domestic 'labour cost' strata, such that you have an
extraordinary number of 'working poor' (Greider's book comes to mind). And
more has to do with 'globalism' - a salient component
At 08:34 PM 2/10/00 -0800, you wrote:
I was recently thinking about Robinson's call for reparations. Suppose
that United States was called upon to pay reparations for what they
imposed on the slaves, what they took from the indigenous people, the
damage that they caused through imperialism. How
And don't omit the $8 million that the U.S. spent--in part, thru the CIA, for the
trucker's strike and other mischief. Remember Kissinger's comment that if the
Chilean people were so "irresponsible" as to choose a socialist government in a
free election, appropriate measures would have to be
To make the point that a substantial part of the wealth moved by
"reparations" is moved to people--like Alexis Herman, Thomas Sowell,
Ward Connerly, Vernon Jordan--who don't especially need it (hell,
it's highly probable that at least one of my ancestors involuntarily
took the middle passage
A much broader political alliance could be formed, if it was simply shown
that a large number of people lack the necessities of life in a late
capitalist economy. Do not have suitable, housing, education, health care,
etc. Talk about reparations to long dead victims of slavery is simply going
to
sorry to distract from the Brad/Louis set-to, but if this is the
same Robinson who was interviewed on US National Public Radio the
other day, he's not calling for reparations in the form of checks to
those who were superexploited or their descendants. He was talking
about aid in the form of
2. The third world will consist of pockets of trade, commerce and
industrialization not unlike the East Coast development zones in China..
That's three billion people.
False.
Louis Proyect
(The Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org)
At 08:34 PM 2/10/00 -0800, you wrote:
I was recently thinking about Robinson's call for reparations. Suppose
that United States was called upon to pay reparations for what they
imposed on the slaves, what they took from the indigenous people, the
damage that they caused through imperialism. How
Give me a break. There is no "Arab revolution" to be put on the
defensive. There never was.
Brad DeLong
I am not sure what you mean by "revolution", since I use the term in a
Marxist sense. The word revolution, as you are probably are aware, is used
in a myriad of ways. There was a "Dodge
Matt, the cute little quips, convey a serious point.
--
Rod Hay
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The History of Economic Thought Archive
http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html
Batoche Books
http://home.golden.net/~rodhay
52 Eby Street South
Kitchener, Ontario
N2G 3L1
Canada
First, remember that the Enslavement is not so far back in time. Persons
who are still alive had grandparents who were slaves. Second, no one wants
to get into a comparison of whose exploitation was 'worse.' But that
doesn't mean that we cannot recognize that the Enslavement and the African
Child mortality is a case in point. For example, even in the prosperous
United States, child mortality is extraordinarily high in places, such as
Harlem -- higher than in Bangladesh. It is very low in prosperous areas.
My basic question, Brad, relates to this use of averages without an taking
At 12:08 PM 2/11/00 -0500, you wrote:
Lou
Can you document this? It is of some historical interest.
Rod
Louis Proyect wrote:
2) the United States
Government promised ex-slaves forty acres and a mule and did not make
good
on that promise;
Absolutely. I just spoke to Wanda who sits 3 cubicles
America, Richard F.(ed.), Paying the social debt : what White America owes
Black America, Westport, Conn. : Praeger, 1993.
America, Ricxhard F.(ed.), The Wealth of races : the present value of
benefits from past injustices. New York : Greenwood Press, 1990.
Browne, Robert S., "The Economic Case
This exactly demonstrates the point I was making. You are arguing that the
existence of another wrong means that justice is unnecessary in another
case, a seriously logically flawed argument. No justice should be sought in
one case unless all other injustices are remedied?
-Original
But you are living in the USA not in Central Asia. You have benefited from
slavery and exploitation of black persons as have I and every other white
person. This is our history and it is we who have to confront it.
Michael Yates
Brad De Long wrote:
'Cute little quips,'
dismissiveness,
Now someone could say, oppression deriving from
slavery endures to this day. But in that case
reparations is no longer the issue: current
circumstances are. Those with no historic
claim (i.e., the Hmong people in Minnesota)
are no less relevant than the descendants
of slaves.
I think this
'Cute little quips,'
dismissiveness, etc., show an insensitivity that should not be tolerated.
Mat
Go learn something about the experience of French Protestants,
Spanish Jews, Gypsies, Poles during World War II, Soviet or Chinese
or North Korean peasants, Cambodian city-dwellers, the
Although the discussion has centered on reparations for slavery, it also
involves American Indians who, unlike blacks, have made land claims--a form
of reparation--central to the struggle.
NY Times, January 30, 2000
Tribal Justice? They'd Settle for Syracuse
By MATTHEW PURDY
ONONDAGA
what do pen-l's tax wonks think of the alleged "marriage penalty" of the US
tax system? (Forget the GOP plan. It won't go anywhere.)
I'd be interested to know the income brackets that are getting nailed. I
know that if you're low income and collecting the earned income tax credit
getting
Rod:
The 40 acres and a mule promise comes from the Freedman's Bureau
(1865-1872), along with civil war pensions, one of the few 19th century
federal social welfare measures. The Bureau was underfunded and hobbled
by opposition at every turn, but it did exist, and it did make these
promises.
I wrote:
another comment: the above suggests that perhaps capitalism has _never_
produced a surplus-product. Rather, all of the surplus that was spent on
capitalist accumulation and rich people's luxuries and the like was
simply the result of _redistribution_ from other people.
Brad writes:
This article by the fine economist, Patrick Mason, may be useful for this
discussion of reparations.
Michael Yates
Subject: [BRC-NEWS] Affirmative Action: Moving Beyond the Myths
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:52:52
On Behalf Of Rob Schaap
Heaven forbid we confuse the more subtle humor and satire of
Bugs Bunny and
friends with Disney's pop art :)
Right again. Although I'm very much a Foghorn Leghorn man,
meself...I don't have to watch the ghastly Ash and his verminous
poke-bloody-mons. Progress
So much of what we enjoy is built upon destruction of other people and the
environment, I wonder what the concept of accumulation really means. Mind
you, I'm writing this on a Pentium notebook computer. I live a comfortable
life on land that was stolen . . .
* * *
In _To Those Born
I might mention that the Warner Brothers are relatives. They offered
both my grandfather, as well as most other people in town, a full
partnership for $50. My grandfather told them that nobody would pay a
nickel just to see a shadow on a wall. I must have the genetic
predisposition to bad
I don't know why everyone is talking about infant mortality being so low.
The last time I looked up the international comparisons, we were something
like #19.
Joel Blau
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chico, CA 95929
Jim Devine wrote:
2) Tom W., could you give a 25-word-or-less summary of the "lump of labor
fallacy" and a "25-word-or-less" summary of _why_ it's a fallacy. Maybe I'm
dumb, but I can't seem to get my mind around what the target of the main
stream of your missives is. Maybe you give an
This exactly demonstrates the point I was making. You are arguing that the
existence of another wrong means that justice is unnecessary in another
case, a seriously logically flawed argument. No justice should be sought in
one case unless all other injustices are remedied?
No. But giving
In 1960 left-wing intellectuals and politicians argued that
the close economic links between Batista's Cuba and the United States
was impoverishing Cuba. Today everyone--left, right, and
center--agrees that it is the lack of close economic links with the
U.S. that impoverishing Cuba.
Today,
It does not matter that your ancestors suffered in Europe. They, and especially their
children, still gained here from being white. And I haven't noticed that concern for
whites has ever benefited black people much. For me it's not a matter of white guilt
but of elemental justice. Why is
Jim Devine wrote:
I wrote:
another comment: the above suggests that perhaps capitalism has _never_
produced a surplus-product. Rather, all of the surplus that was spent on
capitalist accumulation and rich people's luxuries and the like was
simply the result of _redistribution_ from other
Brad:
This exactly demonstrates the point I was making. You are arguing that the
existence of another wrong means that justice is unnecessary in another
case, a seriously logically flawed argument. No justice should be sought in
one case unless all other injustices are remedied?
No. But
But you are living in the USA not in Central Asia. You have benefited from
slavery and exploitation of black persons as have I and every other white
person. This is our history and it is we who have to confront it.
* * *
True enough. But I, at least, am living in AMerica because my Jewish
this is an apt description of the whole neoliberal vision of
trickle-down. The neoliberal view says "if you want to make an
omelette (the neoliberal market utopia), you've got to break eggs
(peoples' lives, traditions, communities, etc.)" Hypothetical
compensation will make up for the actual
Browne, Robert S., "The Economic Case for Reparations to Black America" The
American Economic Review, Vol. 62, No. 1/2. (1972), pp. 39-46.
I remember thinking that Browne's piece was very nice...
Brad DeLong
I wrote this about it two yrs ago.
http://www.prospect.org/columns/sawicky/sa980723.html
JD:
what do pen-l's tax wonks think of the alleged "marriage penalty" of the US
tax system? (Forget the GOP plan. It won't go anywhere.)
The 'bonus' can be misconstrued. Those whose taxes
fall by
Brad:
In 1960 left-wing intellectuals and politicians argued that
the close economic links between Batista's Cuba and the United States
was impoverishing Cuba. Today everyone--left, right, and
center--agrees that it is the lack of close economic links with the
U.S. that impoverishing Cuba.
The penalty is not getting married per se,
but marrying and setting work arrangements
such that joint income exceeds the income
of the beneficiary family(s).
The phase-out for a family (married or no)
with children starts at $12,500 and ends
between $26K and $30K. So insofar as your
combined
But you are living in the USA not in Central Asia. You have benefited from
slavery and exploitation of black persons as have I and every other white
person. This is our history and it is we who have to confront it.
Michael Yates
Very true. But does "confronting it" have to mean giving money
Child mortality is a case in point. For example, even in the prosperous
United States, child mortality is extraordinarily high in places, such as
Harlem -- higher than in Bangladesh. It is very low in prosperous areas.
My basic question, Brad, relates to this use of averages without an taking
No. But giving money to Vernon Jordan doesn't strike me as "justice."
Brad DeLong
William F. Buckley, "And yes, 50 percent of those who receive Social
Security are 'rich.' Nearly half (47 per cent) of those who benefit from
Medicare are rich, and one-fifth of those who get Medicaid." (From a
JKS wrote:
As to reparations, to make sense of the notion, if you are seriously
advocating it, you have to decide what your theory of justice is.
George DeMartino did a very good paper a few years ago at one of Richard
America's NEA sessions that looked at Rawls vs. Sen on justice and argued
Brad De Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/00 02:47PM
No. But giving money to Vernon Jordan doesn't strike me as "justice."
CB: How about if we make a special stipulation that every Black person except Vernon
Jordan gets money ? Or just every Black person with a net worth below x ?
CB
Charles Brown wrote:
CB: How about if we make a special stipulation that every Black
person except Vernon Jordan gets money ? Or just every Black person
with a net worth below x
How do you define a black person?
Where would the reparations come from? General tax revenues? If so,
then
Some years ago Johan Galtung was part of study that calculated loss
of potential lifespan from persistent deprivation - insufficient
food, shelter, health care - associated with social inequality.
Norwegian political scientist Tord Hoivik termed such loss 'structural
violence' because it is
Ummm. Where did this "report" come from?
max
William F. Buckley, "And yes, 50 percent of those who receive Social
Security are 'rich.' Nearly half (47 per cent) of those who benefit from
Medicare are rich, and one-fifth of those who get Medicaid." (From a 1994
article calling for the
I don't get it. The history of Jews doesn't matter (Irish, whatever), what matters is
that white people who wouldn't have regarded my ancestors as white kept slaves. The
history doesn't matter that immediate descendents hated my ancestors almost as much as
they hated blacks, passed effective
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/11/00 03:24PM
But I don't think it will get us in that direction to talk in the way you propose.
Yes, we need to be divisive. yes, we need to polaruze society. yes, we need to
anathematize racism and bigotry. But no, we do not need to divide Blacks from whites
by
Jim Devine wrote:
The lower infant mortality rate seems mostly a result of government
investment in public health (rather than relying on the market).
But greater wealth and scientific progress - both of which are
products of capitalism - are what made government investment and the
science
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