I denounce the Walker/PEN-L junta for disallowing
the fourth and correct option -- reduce the rate
by half a point.
I'm trying to refinance, for Christ's sake.
mbs
1. The Federal Reserve Board Open Market Committee has been disolved and
replaced by a junta of Pen-l subscribers (Alan Greenspan
Subject: [PEN-L:15775] Enter the Dragon
Friday January 28, 6:22 pm Eastern Time
US Yield Curve-Bonds dance to a different drummer
By my count this is part IV of a continuing
series.
mbs
. . .
I'd like to see a point-by-point rebuttal to this, sent certified
mail, to the authors. Let's draft it here and let Max send it off on
his finest letterhead. Bill
Send to who? And why on my letterhead?
As I mentioned before (might have been on LBO),
my boss Larry Mishel and I
. . .
So, I would add to the micro section a longer discussion of the
institutions that comprise the economy.
1. Public traded corporations
2. private corporations
3. government owned companies.
4. non-profits, co-ops, etc.
5. the various consumption units, households, etc. . . .
I did suggest
More on our textbook of the mind . . .
I-A looks like an interesting one. It would be nice
if it mapped popular notions about economics to a more
critical and comprehensive history.
Re: methodology, to me this would focus on something
hardly ever discussed -- the unconscious philosophical
RO: . . .Begin by cataloguing some of the major forms realized surplus
value takes today . . . all of government spending (with some exceptions
like that for education . . .
"Some exceptions"? health care, nutrition, means-tested cash assistance,
transportation, etc. etc. etc.
mbs
When we have a spare month we can argue about the democratic
secular state. I'm afraid it's a pipe dream.
RN:This is the only disagreement between us worthy of continued debate.
Which part is the pipe dream, democratic? or secular? or the two in
combination?
It's hard to see Israeli Jews
BN: Shahak is a heroic figure, but I think you're misinterpreting him a
bit.
. . . Is your characterization based on having read the work I cited? If
not, on what? . . .
mbs: No, it's based on a supposition that he couldn't have
made the error you did in your paraphrase of his work.
See "Beware the U.S. Model" by Mishel, Schmitt and
Bernstein, an EPI book, for the US/Euro comparison.
See Robert Pollin's book on the living wage. Also
tell the coalition to contact John Schmitt at EPI
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) for help on the issue.
mbs
-Original Message-
From: John
Brad De Long wrote:
And voter apathy is our friend. We're not at all interested in
arguing with "no" voters. We're not very interested in convincing
"undecided" voters. We're interested in turning out "yes" voters. In
an odd-numbered year voter participation will be perhaps 55% (instead
of
What about this:
"I assume these "advocates" must be status-quo worshipping policy wonks. "
?
mbs
MP:
This will not do.
"Max B. Sawicky" wrote:
But you don't know shit.
--
Having been caught off-base, Louis tries a jump shot . . .
. . . What's needed is militant struggle against Clinton's attack on
working
people and the poor. The problem with William Julius Wilson and many of the
liberal think-tanks . . .
"Many"? There are approximately three. Us, Preamble,
Right now, on the real side, there is no going back to the old system,
much less a GAI. The more you demand it, the more irrelevant you
get. The game is different now. If you don't want to take my word
for it, ask the advocates who work in the trenches.
mbs
General Louis, gesturing to the
Patients' rights is indeed the next baby step back to
a national health care debate. The basis for this debate
will be the discrediting of HMO's, which is in progress as
we speak and is reflected by the House vote.
Note that if patients have rights, then it is not much
of a stretch to
. . .
I'm positive you don't need to be reminded of the radical demand during
the
Marxist Nixon administration to delink a person's livelihood from their
employment status with a guaranteed annual income in the Family Assistance
Plan. But those halcyon days are far behind us and there's no
. . .
I disagree with some of Wilson's strategic positions and his empirical
emphases on certain areas, but he is an ally of radical strategies for
change. Wilson and Charles Murrary share the same politics only in the
sloppy class-blind analyses of mainstream commentators - a blindness
I am looking at the annual report of the patent office. It reads like a
corporate report detailing its assets and liabilities, as well as its
return on investment.
Do all government agencies to this now?
Michael Perelman
I doubt it, but they should. The General Accounting Office
and
?
Max B. Sawicky wrote:
I am looking at the annual report of the patent office. It reads like
a
corporate report detailing its assets and liabilities, as well as its
return on investment.
Do all government agencies to this now?
Michael Perelman
I doubt it, but they should
. . .
one of the problems with the studies that minimize the role of capital
mobility in search of more profitable climes is that it ignores the fact
that the capitalists lobby like hell to make sure that the place where
they
are currently located (where their sunk costs are) will change its
. Kindly ship the case of Lagavullin to: Max B. Sawicky
Suite 1200 Economic Policy Institute 1660 L Street, NW Washington, DC
20036 If it's any consolation, I do not partake of hard liquor myself,
so I will be doling out the bottles to assorted members of LBO-Talk and
PEN-L, many of whom
Max, I recall that his controversial point was that development would
decrease
overall pollution. He was not very convincing.
"Max B. Sawicky" wrote:
Alan Krueger got some raspberries at an URPE panel . . .
We have different recollections. I also remember some nimrod
getting
There was a piece this a.m. in the Post along the same lines.
Hand wringing over the level of public debt (which is much
lower than the U.S.) and the aging of the population.
Exactly the story used to beat up on the U.S. fisc over
the past 15 years.
It's easy to overstate the importance of
Actually, I'm a bit curious as to what Wojtek has written as an academic.
I don't intend to engage in any personal attack on this list at all (any
difference that I have with him, I've already expressed elsewhere). It's
just a matter of idle curiousity -- does he publish the sort of
to pass.
Kindly ship the case of Lagavullin to:
Max B. Sawicky
Suite 1200
Economic Policy Institute
1660 L Street, NW
Washington, DC 20036
If it's any consolation, I do not partake of hard liquor
myself,
so I will be doling out the bottles to assorted members
of
LBO-Talk and PEN-L, many of whom
. . .
Take the Brenner business. None of the people who have been upholding
Brenner's views on the rise of capitalism have taken the trouble to read
_The Brenner Debate_, or to read my criticque of Brenner which is posted
on
a web page available to all. . . .
Actually this whole flap has
LP:
Let us examine some examples of the role of NGOs and their relation to
neoliberalism and imperialism in specific countries: . . .
[click]
Let's not and say we did, since the ensuing quote has
nothing to do with what is going on. LP has yet to give
any sign that he has read one word of
For those interested in US imperialism, I have forwarded an article from
this morning's Toronto Star . . .
The bit about buying up Canadian assets with the benefit of
devalued currency reminds me of the Korean situation,
where somebody was quoted as saying Korean assets were
now for sale,
This was a joke.
Most of my jokes have a point.
Not all of them are funny.
That about sums it up.
mbs
Max Sawicky [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/01/99 04:12PM
Charles Brown-- anything I say will be racist, including this
Charles:
I think you are having flash backs to Henry Liu. Don't
Loyola/Jim Devine-- Vatican Council
this is inaccurate. I work for the Inquisition, which is a different arm
of
the Vatican Octopus.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
What I've always said about Devine.
You can't torquemada anything.*
mbs
(*Mel Brooks, "History of the World")
. . .
I don't suggest that someone can be Eurocentric on the matter of European
and non-European history and not be progressive on contemporary struggles.
. . .
Let me try to join in on this new love feast.
To me any negative connotation to "Third worldism" does not stem
from any interest in
Charles: Maybe if we substitute the word "exploited surplus value" for
"plundered", you can see how a scientific Marxist understanding of this
factor enters in. The gold was not snatched by the hands of the Spanish from
the ground. It used Indian miners to do the labor, and then extracted
550 Sawicky. Where do you get this "capitalism itself is
not a stage of historical progress, relative to
feudalism." You don't get it from me. But saying it
No I get it from others here. I didn't say I got it from you,
did I?
gives you a chance to sneer at revolutionsary
How could a petty ideologist ever keep up with a daring theoretician such
as the charming Max S.?
Michael Perelman
Dear kindly Officer Perelman,
You gotta understand,
It's just my bringing up-ke
That get's me out of hand.
My mother was idealist,
My dad collected facts,
Holy Lenin, natcherly
PB:
c) a "progressive nationalism" (again, a PEN-L phrase) which, in
advocating WB/IMF defunding, takes heart and strength and
knowledge from the potential unity of the variety of particularistic
struggles against local forms of structural adjustment,malevolent
"development" projects and Bretton
1. Is Hoffa doing much damage to the Teamsters or is it business as
usual?
2. While most religions have created vicious theological dictatorships,
have the Buddhists so far avoided such excesses? Have any dictators
claimed to ground their abuses in Buddhist principles?
Hard to see much
RO:
I'm not sure I understand your question. A fundamental problem I am
raising is
that because foreign gross product type data isn't caclulated, foreign
profit
numbers are as reported by corps only, without the adjustments the BEA
does to
have the numbers better refelect economic reality.
. . . The publication of gross product of foreign affiliates of US
nonfinancial corps was discontinued in the 80s wasn't it? This is important
because you need the capital consumption adjustment to reported profits
provided by the BEA in corp. gross product numbers to make the foreign
profits
Sam writes:
I agree but the post-WWII order was to a great extent planned by U.S.
UK government officials. These plans made it quite clear that the third
world was to be used for its raw materials and cheap labor, that third
world economies were to be subordinated to the core. The social
Burford proves that Marxism-Leninism and reasonableness are not
necessarily inconsistent, notwithstanding LP's evidence to the contrary.
Most any time that communists have participated in important,
progressive historical events they have reflected the essential
soupcon of pragmatism typified by
Instead of a disappearing URL, why not just a regular citation and
the home page of the source, trusting in people to find what they
need w/that information.
mbs
I would like to see pen-l back on their server in a visible form, but it
would mean that we would have to resist sending articles
it is a bit difficult to
imagine a chimpanzee as an individual, and a human individual
is unimaginable. Try the mind experiment of stripping away every
social relation you have ever had. What would be left?
what would happen if you were to strip away all of human biology? what
would be left?
Jim
Anybody catch the PBS documentary "The Crucible of Empire"
on the Spanish-American war?
I thought it was pretty good, for television anyway. No visible
marxist historians, but a good multicultural line-up of experts.
The stuff on the anti-imperialist league was pretty neat (major
stalwarts, the
Rod H:
In my experience, every woman I have known who had an abortion went
through
a big moral struggle. That is not the point. The point is that it is
her
moral decision not any one else's. It is her choice. A fetus is not an
appendix and no woman treats an abortion like she would an
.. . .
The right to an abortion is not an issue
on which the left can compromise. It should
not be seen as up for sale.
mbs: I would not put 'it' up for sale, in case anyone
is wondering.
I can't speak to the legal implications
of limited restrictions relative to the basic right. We've
seen
CC, for the prosecution:
"What do *you* think, Max? You speak of bargaining. Bargaining
always *begins* with a position to bargain from. All you offer is
a generalized speculation about possible results of the bargaining
process. What is your position on abortion just before you sit down
at the
Yoshie:
Do you know that Roe v. Wade (1973) itself gave women only a very
limited
and circumscribed right? Roe v. Wade merely guarantees women's right
to
*seek* a legal, medically supervised abortion *during the first
trimester
of pregnancy,* which a woman may or may not get through her
Leftwing critics of this rightwing politician running for Senate have
put
together a website that is cleverly designed to look like the real
thing at:
http://www.yesrudy.com/.
--
Good stuff re: RG. With a few exceptions, the Bush people have
registered most any uncomplimentary and
Anybody listen to the Republican prez candidates' speeches
in Iowa?
Keyes was the most frenetic and extreme, accusing Clinton
of treason. Buchanan came close, intimating he would arrest
Clinton upon taking the oath of office; the difference is that
Buchanan knew he was kidding, whereas Keyes
I am convinced! Good approach.
-
mbs: You're much too easy. If abortion is murder (not my position,
BTW), then Yoshie's remarks about women are beside the point.
The pro-life position, rightly or not, begins from the standpoint of
the unborn
*person*. The fact that mothers fare
whoops, guess not, notice how quickly Yoshie's concern with decline
in abortion providers and query about how to reverse this trend was
followed by posts about 'morality' and 'legitimacy' of abortion
itself...sheeshMichael Hoover
--
Sheesh yourself. Nobody used those words or
Max S!
You are correct about 80% of the tax cuts going to 20%
of the people.
Neil!!!
Thank you very much. It's not my number. It's from my friends
at Citizens for Tax Justice, yet another rotten petit-bourgeois
arm of the left wing of capital.
But Max, under bourgeois democracy the fix
But I would add that it is best not to have to respond to the Nazis. It is
better to have in place a well organized network of people and
organizations
before they come to town. While some troubled people might gravitate to
the
Nazis no matter what, I suspect that a good fraction of the young
In a related story, the Governor of Alabama signed a state law making the
mathematical constant pi exactly equal to 3. In response, all circles were
replaced by hexagons.
Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://clawww.lmu.edu/Faculty/JDevine/jdevine.html
Actually this is not all that crazy.
thanks for the clarification.
mbs
On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, Max B. Sawicky wrote:
N.B. Directions to Jones Beach
By train and bus, take the LIRR from Penn Station to Freeport; buses run
from Freeport to Jones Beach every half hour; roundtrip tickets to Jones
Beach include bus fare
There's a feisty student movement re: sweatshops that
you faculty geezers might be interested in referring
students to. Here's the link:
http://home.sprintmail.com/~jeffnkari/USAS/
Makes for an interesting discussion of corporate logos,
trademark property, and commericalist creation of culture
I'd read Langdon Winner's *The Whale and the Reactor*--it's got the famous
"Do Artifacts Have Politics?" piece. His analysis of the bridges Robert
Moses built on Long island was pretty damn convincing. For those who haven't
read the piece--Moses was built Jones Beach and some other state parks
K,
looks like you've been away for a while.
Oceania is no longer at war with Eurasia.
Follow the thread out, then resubmit
your post, verbatim if you feel it is
appropriate.
Cheers,
max
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ken Hanly
Sent:
Good article this a.m. in the Post about the
Sudanest factory bombing. The owner, a crony
of the Saudi royal family, is suing the U.S.
and apparently winning. Two choice excerpts:
" . . . Over at the White House, Clinton's national security adviser, Samuel
R. "Sandy" Berger, was referring to
Michael's information seems very important. Would other people like to
comment, especially on the speculation that the liberal democrats will
accept the fast track.
In a wierd way, it could help the liberals in the limited objective, by
firing up the red meat repugs, thus making the Shrub's
Look, I think that it is settled. Brad and Max think that the left has
done unspeakable evil, while imperialism has done some rather bad
stuff. . . .
mbs: Which Brad and Max are those? The same one alleged to have
said that genocides of non-whites were of no importance?
These burlesque
the guy was Gerry Nadler from NYC. Don't know
where the quote appeared, if anywhere.
mbs
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of DOUG ORR
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 10:29 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:9492] Social Security quote?
.. . . The last sentence demonstrates the worthlessness of
his chosen method. The error range (97,808,000) is larger than his
"estimate" (61,911,000). I don't have to be a statistician to know that
when your estimate is smaller than your error range, your method is about
as good as a ouija
brouhaha of brutish, ill-mannered badinage.
I prefer to reserve my pasquinades for the ears of the
cultivated. Better to contemplate the supernal oneness,
the music of the spheres, the lives of the saints.
Or last nite's broadcast of the thrilling sequel,
Predator II.
[sniff]
Max B. Sawicky, Doctor
I want to thank Max, Brad and Henry for their helpful responses to my
query, "Is there some rule of thumb which sates how many dollars the tax
harvest
falls for each $billion decline in GDP?"
Henry stated that total tax receipts( fed, state and local) are some 36% of
GDP. But given the
You can find a discussion in CBO's Economic and Budget Review,
published every January, free on their web site. Has a chapter,
the economy's effect on the budget.
mbs
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Frank Durgin
Sent: Saturday, July 10,
Max writes that, according to his calculations, see below, "only" 62 billion
of
the new 1 trillion surplus is going to what he and Clinton call "defense"
expenditures. And Max, you don't think that's too much. But why is ANY
going
to war spending?
Gene Coyle
Please bite your tongue. I NEVER
Louis P., channeling the breathless Barry Lituchy:
. . .
Finally, let's not forget the interests of the military-industrial
contractors themselves. Having used up their inventory of certain weapon
systems, the Pentagon got Congress to rush through a $15 billion military
spending bill for just
.. . .
sov-er-eign (sov'rin, sov'uhr in, suv'-) n.
1. a monarch or other supreme ruler.
2. a person who has sovereign power or
authority.
3. a body of persons or a state having
sovereign
The Post is what should be satirized for years of mindless
babble about deficits, helping to give rise to the mindless
reform of welfare and restraint on public investment.
As Ellen noted, all the dirt is in the OMB's mid-session
review and CBO reports, all of which are free on the web.
I
Speaking of Greg LeRoy, here's an item from him
this week:
-Original Message-
From: Greg LeRoy/Good Jobs First [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 1999 12:47 PM
To: Recipient list suppressed
Subject: Hyundai Debate Continues
TO: Subsidy Accountability Watchers
FR:
Michael wrote:
The left took an awful long time recovering from the splits caused by WW I
also. You are absolutely correct.
Actually, they never really did recover. . . .
There are two different arguments tangled up here.
The trivial one, pertaining to flames on PEN-L
and LBO, has nothing
The kind in the throes of collapse?
The kind that acts one way towards the national majority,
and quite another w/respect to others?
mbs
[was that repetitious?]
Max, perhaps we have different definitions of dictatorship. . . .
I take your point that Serbia and Nicaragua are and were more
Max Sawicky wrote,
Not to get you too worked up about all this, but suppose
leisure is admitted as an argument into utility functions,
and/or the social welfare function uses a Rawlsian weighting
of individual utilities? Or how about a SWF variable like
'walkerz' representing social harmony?
Depends on the numbers, Jimbo. Typically the official renditions
are hype to boost the deal, big surprise.
I testified in Annapolis on this issue for our progressive state
senator, Paul Pinsky (New Party). He was trying to get regs on
the use of state money for stuff like this. At the time
The standard posture seems to be: we are against racism, but let's not
discuss
it, because it is divisive, it turns people off, it make the poster sound
frenzied, let just oppose it quietly but not draw attention to it.
I haven't followed most of this thread -- in self defense I am deleting
Items of current interest . . .
Campaign for Americas Future
--
Steel Sold Out
The US Senate failed to support a measure to stop the illegal dumping of
foreign steel
in the U.S. after Clinton Administration lobbying against a
.. . .
useful to consider today's NY Times for an obvious refutation of theme 3.
What kind of dictatorship would allow peaceful protests such as these in
the aftermath of a catastrophic military defeat?]
NY Times, June 30, 1999
10,000 Serb Protesters Demand Resignation of Milosevic . . .
The
.. . .
The difference between shit and shinola: if you assume that maximum output
equals maximum welfare, you're making an interpersonal comparison of utility
between those who have a preference for consumption goods and those who have
a preference for disposable time. The "no interpersonal
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tom Walker
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 10:34 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:8596] re: Thomas Friedman an economist?
Ken Hanly wrote:
COMMENT: But this confirms my point doesn't it? Isn't it
Louis Proyect wrote:
My suggestion to Charles and Henry is to avoid getting bogged down in
debates with Professor Delong. As far as I can tell, he is a very upscale
sort of troll.
Louis, I don't think that this sort of characterization is useful.
He knows that PEN-L is not really a haven for
You haven't commented on this. What's the buzz?
Others have been excoriated for much less.
mbs
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:59:35 -0400
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: NYSE-FARC
[The "president of capitalism" touts shareholder democracy to armed
revolutionaries]
Wojtek,
This is a bit of a muddle. Ormerod was an accomplished econometric
modeler in Britain. Built up a business around it, then sold it for
big bucks, so he knows what he's talking about, but you tripped up
in a few places.
His argument can be summarized as follows:
Prediction in
And the Emmy for most inscrutable e-mail post of
the year goes to . . .
Gore-Tex (gôr'teks , gohr'-) Trademark . . .
Michael Perelman wrote:
Yes, but Galbraith is a principled liberal -- a rare bird these days.
Actually under the Law of Proportionate Moral Distribution,
principle among liberals is no less real than among the holier-
than-thou left. Lyapunov proved it with his famous pentagonal
matrices.
Apologies to the list for the double posting,
though sometimes repetition can be helpful.
mbs
--
A Third of Refugees Report Rights Abuses . . .
it sound's like it's time for the US and NATO to start bombing these ethnic
cleansers. After all, wasn't the whole point of the war against Serbia to
make sure that it would never happen again? And the US/NATO use of
strategic bombing to end ethnic cleansing was so successful last time,
right?
I am not particularly in favor of organized religion. For that matter, most
Serbs according to today's NY Times stay away from church as much as I stay
away from synagogue. What seems to be the issue, however, is bloody assault
on Orthodox Churches, which has led the Patriarch to call for
A Third of Refugees Report Rights Abuses
Kosovo Survey Reveals 'Brutal Campaign'
By William Branigin
Washington Post Sta*ff Writer
Wednesday, June 16, 1999; Page A32
Nearly a third of Kosovo refugee
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tom Walker
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 1998 12:32 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PEN-L:316] Pen-l EEG
---
Nice to hear from you.
Hope
. . .
Perhaps the recent awakening in Jewish culture and the left-wing politics
of previous generations will reach a whole new generation of Jews. The
Israeli state has long ceased to act as a pole of attraction. It is high
time that Jews understood that their interests are with people
Unless I've become too much of a town-booster, Milwaukee is the _only_
American city with socialist government in its purple past,
You have. The city of Reading, PA had a socialist
mayor by the name of Stump. He had a fondness for
the bottle but is generally well-regarded in memory.
I'd
I thought the dinosaurs died because the
Phillips Curve shifted.
Fred F.
Heard this the other night and need to share it.
MBS
===
Philosophers song
Immanual Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
. . .
One thing this is doing (and this was very much part of Thatcher's agenda
when she floated BT) is creating a class of share-holders - the idea being
that their vote against any pro-public sector party (such as
Kinnock's mob)
can be assured in return for but a couple of thousand
At 03:13 p.m. 4/26/98 -0400, Max wrote:
Liberals don't get excited about investment.
According to the current [May 4] issue of BUSINESS WEEK, there's
a new wing
of the [US] Democratic Party that's very excited by investment, led by
Barry Bluestone, Bennet Harrison, James K. Galbraith, and
Liberals don't get excited about investment. That's
for the Clintonoids. I suspect my folks will find an
traditional Keynesianism perfectly appropriate.
The IMF is a pro-austerity leg-breaker for bankers,
anti-public sector, anti-democratic, etc.
No?
Everyone knows the
Max, for the ADA I'd spin it by saying that the IMF deliberately depresses
investment in countries desperately in need of higher levels of
investment.
In Asia, the only region of the "Third World" to show gains in income
relative to the First over the last several decades, they're forcing
Max B. Sawicky wrote:
You are putting an ideological overlay on this vote
which is probably not held by the ones voting. The
vote was one part political -- let's give Clinton
a win after kicking his ass on Fast Track -- and
one part a fear of disaster, since Rubin and Summers
give
Marx did not like Bismarck but he supported centralization of the
German state,
since that was preferable to the competition of small little
states. Just as
Marx could attack Bismarck's actions while supporting a more
centralized state,
Which would seem to apply to the EU debate,
but
Interesting tally on the IMF funding vote in the House, from Robert
Weissman of Multinational Monitor:
AYES NOES PRES/NV
REPUBLICAN 22 193 11
DEMOCRATIC164 28 13
INDEPENDENT 1
TOTALS186 222 24
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