[PEN-L] No Exit in Black: Trapped by the Economy and Politics

No Exit in Black: Trapped by the Economy and Politics Marcellus Andrews Guest Commentator The just concluded presidential election was all about Iraq, with the state of the economy lagging in importance while questions about poverty, economic i

[PEN-L] Social Security

So, the lies will soon start flying about the "problems" with Social Security and how it needs to be "fixed" --- in the same way that your dog needs to be "fixed". I would like to see discussion here on this topic, to see how we can help defend Social Security from Bush, for whom 60% of the eligib

[PEN-L] Thomas Frank weighs in

Thomas Frank is omnipresent nowadays. In addition to the op-ed piece below, I saw him on the McNeill news hour 2 nights ago. His book "What's the Matter with Kansas" argues that the Democrats keep losing elections because they are tarred with issues like gay marriage (even Cockburn and St. Clair go

[PEN-L] Ruy Teixeira on the elections

From: Louis Proyect Ruy Teixeira on the elections -clip- The only message in the mass reality of the epoch of capitalism that can match the main bourgeois utopian message is a communist message. The Democrats, natch, pilfered a piece of this vision in the period of below, and it contributed to

[PEN-L] Investigation of Election Fraud

"CONSUMER PROTECTION FOR ELECTIONS "THURSDAY Nov. 4 2004: If you are concerned about what happened Tuesday, Nov. 2, you have found a home with our organization. Help America Audit. "Black Box Voting has taken the position that fraud took place in the 2004 election through electronic voting machin

[PEN-L] Why Argentina became poor

A completely idiotic article featured on Denis Dutton's Arts and Letters website. Dutton is a shady character with an affinity for Frank Furedi's libertarian cult. His website is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Chronicle of Higher Education, which more and more appears to be drifting in the sa

[PEN-L] Confused and Desparate Democrats

(In today's London Times. More interesting than the gossip about Teresa Heinz Kerry, the internal campaign squabbling, and Kerry's indecisiveness, are the revelations that Kerry repeatedly met with and offered John McCain unprecedented VP powers in charge of the Pentagon, and the Clinton team's uns

[PEN-L] Gutting social security -- Bush's first and very un-stupid move

Title: Message Well, George Bush is moving to repay his working-class voters and consolidate his ruling-class base by making his top priority the gutting of social security. The idea is to turn it into a program linked to the stock market, eliminate almost elements of redistribution of weal

[PEN-L] In Search of Scapegoats: Women and Gay Marriage Advocates

Unable to blame Ralph Nader, the Democratic Party blames women (Teresa Heinz Kerry, Mary Beth Cahill) and gay marriage advocates. November 05, 2004 'I can't believe I'm losing to this idiot' By Tim Reid The Democratic challenger repeatedly

[PEN-L] Jim wants you to see this.

Jim thought you would like this site. http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110604Z.shtml ApplyRefer v2.3

[PEN-L] getting going or getting filters

michael lebowitz: the US > working class (let us not deny that this is who has spoken) ^ CB: A large fraction of the US working class voted for Bush and has spoken. However, not all Bush's votes are from the working class ; and Bush's votes are 52% of those who voted. Those who voted are w

[PEN-L] Interesting Video--No endorsement necessarily

Title: Message Check out this site….. http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main James M. Craven Blackfoot Name: Omahkohkiaayo-i'poyi Professor/Consultant,Economics;Business Division Chair Clark College, 1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd. Vancouver, WA. USA 98663 Tel: (360) 992-2283; Fax: (360) 9

[PEN-L] My verbose point of view

The real dirty secret of U.S. political and social life is still class struggle. It is not divisions based on religion, ideology, gender, or even race and nationality. The world we want to live in (or our children and grandchildren to live in) can only be built by working people, deliberately coop

Re: [PEN-L] Ruy Teixeira on the elections

From: Charles Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Louis Proyect Ruy Teixeira on the elections -clip- There is no alternative to the fullblown bourgeois christian vision for the left but a fullblown communist message and vision, no alternative that is in touch with the realty of the world today. The que

[PEN-L] The Republican Party's Art of War

ion-local.php?story=dispatch/2004/11/05/20041105-A1-02.html> Friday, November 05, 2004 Geoff Dutton THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH As seasoned voters in many of Columbus' predominantly black neighborhoods waited in long lines Tuesday, they quickly recognized that the crush of new voters wasn't t

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Bill writes: >So, the lies will soon start flying about the "problems" with Social Security and how it needs to be "fixed" --- in the same way that your dog needs to be "fixed".<   Bad analogy: a lot of dogs do need to be fixed, because of the over-pop problem.   >I would like to see di

[PEN-L] doris koch bush

Is Bush's sister married to the infamous Koch family? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

This is exactly this sort of material where this list could be useful. I wish that Dean Baker were here again to weigh in on this question. On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 06:47:41AM -0600, Bill Lear wrote: > So, the lies will soon start flying about the "problems" with Social > Security and how it nee

[PEN-L] Democracy Re: Ruy Teixeira on the elections

From: Charles Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Louis Proyect Ruy Teixeira on the elections -clip- There is no alternative to the fullblown bourgeois christian vision for the left but a fullblown communist message and vision, no alternative that is in touch with the realty of the world today. The que

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

At 6:47 AM -0600 11/5/04, Bill Lear wrote: So, the lies will soon start flying about the "problems" with Social Security and how it needs to be "fixed" --- in the same way that your dog needs to be "fixed". I would like to see discussion here on this topic, to see how we can help defend Social Secu

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

The points of vulnerability for Bush include: Your individual account is more risky than a guaranteed benefit; You bear the cost of annuitizing your nest egg once you retire; You bear the administrative cost of maintaining the individual account; If your wages are low, you end up with less comp

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Bad analogy: a lot of dogs do need to be fixed, because of the over-pop problem. Er, don't you mean over-pup problem? Dan

[PEN-L] War spreading

Not only are the Marines preparing to attack Falluja -- my voice recognition program understands the name of that town as “blue-chip” – but a school in New Jersey has come under attack as well. Another example of precision warfare. Are all the blue states in danger? http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/0

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

nonono, tell the truth and shame the devil.  Social Security isn't a savings program, an insurance program or a life assurance program and there is no connection between inputs and outputs of the kind that might be summarised usefully as "returns".  It's purely and simply the embodiment in a

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

How about, since this is Appeal To The Religious Week, just saying that gutting SS is a pretty poor way to "Honur thy Father and Mother?" dd -Original Message- From: PEN-L list [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Max B. Sawicky Sent: 05 November 2004 18:13 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: R

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Bill Lear wrote: Let's start with an outline of what Social Security is: is it a form of insurance (against an event that is close to 100% likely for most people)? Is it a straight redistribution program? Both? What is it, really and how to best explain what it is to the lay person? Why is it i

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

This is an important topic. We need to work quickly to ensure that people who will have to defend social security actually understand it; then to think about how to campaign in an environment in which the existence of a "problem" is media commonsense. For those of us who are semi-technical, it woul

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

- Original Message - From: "Daniel Davies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> How about, since this is Appeal To The Religious Week, just saying that gutting SS is a pretty poor way to "Honor thy Father and Mother?" dd === Here's the website for the Association of Christian Economists

Re: [PEN-L] War spreading

This was of course in the tradition of the fine training provided in the Air National Guard, this particular pilot was of course "aimed at space". I think the effect of getting hit by a "training" round in terms of hydrostatic shock would probably be similar to that of a conventional 20mm round. We

[PEN-L] Databases & Networks Re: My verbose point of view

Julio wrote: My neighbors, friends, family and myself -- all people who live off our work -- began supporting Dean. Then we supported Kerry, consciously, deliberately, with time and other resources. We traveled, we spent time in Ohio and Pennsylvania, doing clerical and other menial work, phone b

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

don't get me started. -Original Message- From: PEN-L list [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Daniel Davies Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Social Security How about, since this is Appeal To The Religious Week, just saying that gutting SS is

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

From: "Daniel Davies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> How about, since this is Appeal To The Religious Week, just saying that gutting SS is a pretty poor way to "Honor thy Father and Mother?" Yes, but remember that this is a New Testament crowd, and that gives them at least a couple of loopholes, i.e.: "If any

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

There are also the 3 times in the 20th century when stocks dropped over a 20 year period. My favorite example is someone who was born in 1901 and retired in 1966. By 1982, the value of his private account would have dropped 44% before he even took a dime out of it. We also need to remind everyon

Re: [PEN-L] Databases & Networks Re: My verbose point of view

I agree wholeheartedly with Yoshie - networks and databases are essential. They pose rather different problems, however. The Internet particularly changes the possibilities for networking, and to a lesser extent for databases. Networks are in part personal and in that sense cannot be "lost" back to

[PEN-L] Income and Votes 1976-2004

I am VERY glad to see us discussing the economic & class issues - a constructive direction. Here is a table of voting by income for selected elections before and after the onset of neo-liberalism. The numbers are imperfect (see some of my own caveats) but are a start. weight in 2004 vote 200

[PEN-L] Zizek: Bush's victory is "good for the entire world"

In These Times, November 5, 2004 The Liberal Waterloo (Or, finally some good news from Washington!) By Slavoj Zizek (clip) Within these coordinates, every progressive who thinks should be glad for Bush’s victory. It is good for the entire world because the contours of the confrontations to come w

Re: [PEN-L] My verbose point of view

Julio writes: > The emancipation of the U.S. workers will be the work of the U.S. workers themselves. <   Amen! Jim Devine

Re: [PEN-L] Income and Votes 1976-2004

Any easy way to break this out by region--- eg, for a start by red/blue states? michael At 16:56 05/11/2004, you wrote: I am VERY glad to see us discussing the economic & class issues - a constructive direction. Here is a table of voting by income for selected elections before and after th

Re: [PEN-L] Income and Votes 1976-2004

If this is not corrected for inflation, wouldn't we expect to see the under $15 k decline? On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 05:53:30PM -0400, michael a. lebowitz wrote: > Any easy way to break this out by region--- eg, for a start by red/blue states? > michael > > At 16:56 05/11/2004, you wrote:

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

It should perhaps be pointed out that the NDP in Canada was largely founded on the "social gospel" before, during and after the first world war. The first leader of the CCF, the predecessor of the NDP, was J S Woodsworth who was originally a methodist minister. The first socialist premier in Cana

[PEN-L] misc.

Today's Wall Street Journal has a front-page article in the Money and Investing section suggesting worries that the Bush deficit might threaten the bond market. Of course, there's no way that he can cut the deficit without catastrophic cuts in nondefense spending or increasing taxes. Molly Ivins

[PEN-L] The economics of cloud cuckoo land

The new Journal of Economic Perspectives has a wonderful article explaining that the Iraqi economy can prosper so long as it continues to follow its market-friendly policies, even though a recent survey shows that by a substantial margin, Iraqis would favor of political party that would promote

Re: [PEN-L] Income and Votes 1976-2004

Michael L. writes: Any easy way to break this out by region--- eg, for a start by red/blue states? michael Not that I know of or have access to at this time. That is an example of what I meant by needing to see the income data cross tabulated by 'social' categories. Separately Doug H. ha

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

From: PEN-L list on behalf of Joel Blau But just as a hard practical matter, since Bush's own commission on social security couldn't agree on a plan, where are they going to get to the $2 trillion in transition costs? I think the answer is that they don't plan to get it at all. They plan to cu

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

If we're going to collect a load of material on SS, then one area we should certainly be looking into is the miserable failure of means-tested benefits always and everywhere. dd -Original Message- From: PEN-L list [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Frank, Ellen Sent: 05 November 2004 22:

[PEN-L] Income and Votes 1976-2004\Michael P's Question

Michael P. writes: If this is not corrected for inflation, wouldn't we expect to see the under $15 k decline? For 1976-2000 there seems to be some sort of correction for inflation (growth too in this case, since the issue is mostly relative income). The NYT has a footnote that enumerates the creep

Re: [PEN-L] Zizek: Bush's victory is "good for the entire world"

This is reasoning no one needs: In These Times, November 5, 2004 The Liberal Waterloo (Or, finally some good news from Berlin) By Slavoj Zizek (clip) Within these coordinates, every progressive who thinks should be glad for Hitler’s victory. It is good for the entire world because the contours of

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Someone told me yesterday that they had read that Kerry had SS might need to be means-tested. She couldn't remember where she read it. Anyone else seen this? Ellen "During the 1996 campaign, when I was a Globe reporter, Kerry told me the Social Security system should be overhauled. He said Congres

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Was it not Keynes that pointed out that you can not 'save up' for retirement pensions? Pensions must involve distribution of current production. The question only becomes one of where the transfer to pay for that production comes from. In the 'pay-as-you-go' schemes, it comes out of current prem

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

paul phillips wrote: Was it not Keynes that pointed out that you can not 'save up' for retirement pensions? Yup. See my comments on Robin Blackburn's pensions book: . Dog

Re: [PEN-L] Zizek: Bush's victory is "good for the entire world"

"michael a. lebowitz" wrote: > > This is reasoning no one needs: > > >In These Times, November 5, 2004 > >The Liberal Waterloo > >(Or, finally some good news from Berlin) > >By Slavoj Zizek > > (clip) > > Within these coordinates, every progressive who thinks should be glad for > Hitler’s victo

[PEN-L] The Dream Life of Bush Men in Suburbia

The dream life of rich, white, and educated men in suburbia, who brought you George W. Bush's second term, is animated here: The New York Times November 5, 2004 MOVIE REVIEW | 'THE INCREDIBLES' Being Super in Suburbia Is No Picnic By A. O.

Re: [PEN-L] Zizek: Bush's victory is "good for the entire world"

At 19:36 05/11/2004, carroll wrote: "michael a. lebowitz" wrote: > > This is reasoning no one needs: > > >In These Times, November 5, 2004 > >The Liberal Waterloo > >(Or, finally some good news from Berlin) > >By Slavoj Zizek > > (clip) > > Within these coordinates, every progressive who thinks sho

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security & Gospel

Paul Phillips writes: >It should perhaps be pointed out that the NDP in Canada >was largely founded on the "social gospel" before, during >and after the first world war. Karl and Fred were moralists. They took the extreme condition of "scientific socialism" because of the bullshit that was put f

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Ellen Frank writes: >> I have written a lot on SS, some of which is in my new >> book, The Raw Deal. SS is best thought of as an inter- >> generational transfer program. We care for the elderly >> with the understanding that the next generation will care >> for us when we are old. It is not pos

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

- Original Message - From: "David B. Shemano" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I would suggest that this is problematic, because while it would be democratic for current workers to agree to tax themselves to transfer assets to the currently retired, it is anti-democratic to bind future generations to t

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

David wrote: I would suggest that this is problematic, because while it would be democratic for current workers to agree to tax themselves to transfer assets to the currently retired, it is anti-democratic to bind future generations to tax themselves to transfer funds to the current workers when t

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Isn't this the tradition (not current) argument against deficits? On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 04:52:57PM -0800, David B. Shemano wrote: > > To be accurate, aren't you really saying that SS can't go broke because it is a > government obligation like any other obligation (e.g. Treasury bonds) and the

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

But we hand down the consequences of our policy decisions across the board--on the environment, on the military spending, and on total debt. Why single out current workers for their freeloading on social security alone? Joel Blau David B. Shemano wrote: Ellen Frank writes: I h

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

- Original Message - From: "Daniel Davies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> David wrote: I would suggest that this is problematic, because while it would be democratic for current workers to agree to tax themselves to transfer assets to the currently retired, it is anti-democratic to bind future gen

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

The generosity of U.S. income support programs can best be conceptualized from two main factors: 1) the perceived worthiness of the recipient and 2) the scope of the governmental authority that provides it. Among the means-tested welfare programs, this typology suggest the following hierarchy. Fi

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Daniel Davies writes: >> David, would you agree that, Carl's biblical references aside, there is in >> almost all traditions that we have any evidence of, evidence that there was >> a duty to support the elderly? Speaking to you as a conservative, how >> likely do you think it is that literally a

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Joel Blau (and others writes):   "But we hand down the consequences of our policy decisions across the board--on the environment, on the military spending, and on total debt. Why single out current workers for their freeloading on social security alone?"   Again, to generalize, I distinguis

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

No, to the contrary, socializing the cost of paying for elderly reduces resentment of the burden they may constitute. Besides, your position assumes that all children can take of all parents, which is economically speaking is just not true. If you are saying  that those who can't should then be

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

We keep our bridges from failing down, but not our grandmothers and grandfathers? Joel Blau David B. Shemano wrote: Joel Blau (and others writes): "But we hand down the consequences of our policy decisions across the board--on the environment, on the military spending, and on total debt. Why singl

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Borrowing from my own post previous to this (about nice things about leftist morality) and your usual stupid but fun contributions >The short answer is that social security has had a deleterious >effect on intra-family obligations. What the hell are you talking about? That is the stupidest thing

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Not nice! On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 09:05:51PM -0500, Kenneth Campbell wrote: > > That is the stupidest thing I've seen on this list. > -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Hey! I include my own posts in that measurement If my learned friend can beat me for stupidity... wel... you know the achievement on that. Ken. >Not nice! > >On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 09:05:51PM -0500, Kenneth Campbell wrote: >> >> That is the stupidest thing I've seen on this list.

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Paul Phillips writes:>Was it not Keynes that pointed out that you can not 'save up' for retirement pensions?< yes, but if the saving corresponds to (real) investment in factories, a clean environment, infrastructure, etc., the latter can raise labor productivity, allowing future workers to easil

[PEN-L] Nader challenges vote count in NH

Nader/Camejo Challenge Electronic Voting Results in New Hampshire Washington, DC:The Nader/Camejo campaign has filed a challenge to the voting results in New Hampshire after receiving numerous complaints from voting rights activits. Below is Nader's letter to New Hampshire requesting a recount.

[PEN-L] Newsweek commentary

Nader Was Right The Democrats didn’t need his help to lose the election. Kerry’s failure to address gay marriage was a fatal mistake WEB-EXCLUSIVE COMMENTARY By Eleanor Clift Newsweek Updated: 1:18 p.m. ET Nov. 5, 2004 Nov. 5 - Ralph Nader was right. The Democrats didn’t need his help to lose. N

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

It may be that those of us with a background in econ tend to denude progressive ideas of a broader moral framework that renders them barren in the eyes of the average person. Like some kind of radical insurance salesman. The secular impulse tends to discount religious passion. Don't forget A.J.

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

The best clue to what Kerry might have done is the Orszag/Diamond book. There is also Jeff Liebman's liberal privatization scheme(s). I'm not endorsing this stuff, but it is material anybody who is involved in the festivities next year should be familiar with. mbs Someone told me yesterday th

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

- Original Message - From: "David B. Shemano" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Again, to generalize, I distinguish capital investments (roads, schools, bridges, military, etc.) and other types of public goods which have cross-generational benefits. The costs of public goods that have cross-generationa

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

But Jim, I don't think that was the point he was making. It doesn't matter if you invest in gov't bonds used to finance productivity increasing infrastructure or in private stocks increasing productive investment, when you come to collect in either case it involves an income transfer from the stat

Re: [PEN-L] My verbose point of view

Julio Huato wrote: > Marvin Gandall says that only catastrophic events will wake people up. This > statement may be based on solid historical information, but I'm sure Marv > doesn't mean us to accept it fatalistically. -- Julio is referring to a post I made to another

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

David's posts are exactly why I insist that the left must have a moral compass and not the neolib compass of personal gain. It is my moral obligation to provide for my parents/grand parents who not only brought me into this world but raised me, paid for my upbringing and education and for the infr

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Excellent point, Paul. David, I presume, is a libertarian, whose politics would not be driven by moral values. I respect consistent libertarians -- although I have not met many. I think Paul's approach would have more traction with the "morality" folk. Much of the debates before David intervene

[PEN-L] "Only in Canada. Pity"

Solidarity forever and ever, amen

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Michael, My argument is not only moral, it is also technical and personal. Yes we must have a moral compass, but we also must have a technically sound plan. This is why I quote Keynes who pointed out that intergenerational transfers are the only sound economic system for providing pensions. David

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

- Original Message - From: "paul phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Michael, My argument is not only moral, it is also technical and personal. Yes we must have a moral compass, but we also must have a technically sound plan. This is why I quote Keynes who pointed out that intergenerational

[PEN-L] airlines, again......

United Seeks Further Labor Cuts By Anna Johnson Associated Press Writer Friday, November 5, 2004 CHICAGO -- United Airlines is moving to obtain another $725 million in labor concessions and eliminate employees' traditional pensions as it seeks the financing to come out of bankruptcy. A day after

Re: [PEN-L] Zizek: Bush's victory is "good for the entire world"

michael a. lebowitz wrote: This is reasoning no one needs: In These Times, November 5, 2004 The Liberal Waterloo (Or, finally some good news from Berlin) By Slavoj Zizek Btw, I don't agree with Zizek's article. I just sent it along as a document of left opinion on the elections. Keep in mind that Z

[PEN-L] EU question FSC tax pork

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/06/business/worldbusiness/06trade.html November 6, 2004 Europe Still Unhappy With U.S. Tax Subsidy By ELIZABETH BECKER WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 - Just when lawmakers thought a thorny tax dispute was behind them, the European Union raised objections on Friday to parts of th

Re: [PEN-L] Social Security

Am I understanding correctly: 1. The whole of Social Security will not be privatized. Only a portion of the roughly 12% in payroll taxes directed towards SS will be set aside in private investment accounts. Effectively, this should divert attention away from the government program and make it easi