[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

As somebody who has been outspokenly critical of the idea that fascism is an imminent threat in the US, I had been meaning to respond to Stan Goff's article "Sowing the Seeds of Fascism in America" that appeared at truthdig.com. In the course of pulling together my thoughts on the matter, it came

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Louis Proyect wrote: Although the two positions [in Stan Goff's articles] are not explicitly related, they do resonate with a line of reasoning found on the American left and more particularly with the Communist Party. Can you substantiate this a little? I read both pieces and can't -- for th

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Louis P: Unfortunately, the article relies exclusively on the testimony of the Southern Poverty Law Center, an outfit that generates alarmist reports such as these to extract donations from wealthy liberals. I would take anything that they write with a grain of salt. CB: This is a bad start f

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Julio wrote: >Louis Proyect wrote: > >>Although the two positions [in Stan Goff's articles] >>are not explicitly related, they do resonate with a >>line of reasoning found on the American left and >>more particularly with the Communist Party. > >Can you substantiate this a little? I read both piec

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Army officials and the New York Times what reliable sources. Charles * From: Louis Proyect The New York Times December 13, 1995, Wednesday, Late Edition - Final Supremacists Scarce at Fort Bragg, Army Says By MICHAEL JANOFSKY DATELINE: FAYETTEVILLE, N.C., Dec. 12 Army officials at For

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

* Lou P.: This is the same complaint I got from Stan. I would prefer to deal with the substance. Any way you slice it, you don't get fascism without the threat of proletarian revolution. That might be going on somewhere else in the USA, but surely not in NYC. CB: What name shal

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Charles, it's unclear to me whether you think fascism is already here, or are just worried about the possibility of fascism down the road, which is quite a different thing. Do you consider the the Bush administration is "fascist", as some on the left do? ^^^ CB: Hello Marvin. I 'd say fascist in

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

* From: Mark Lause Everybody getting this? Something is fascist not because of its immediate practice but because of what we think is in the minds of some of the ruling class...or because someone channels as a "likely" sequence of reactions inside those minds later after some subsequent even

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

From: Louis Proyect >CB: What name shall we use for the likely response to one, two or three more >"9/11"'s ? How can I answer hypothetical questions? CB: The important thing is that , unfortunately, there is some realistic possibility of future "9/11's", and the likely response of the U.

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

* From: Mark Lause Charles wrote, "The immediate practice in Iraq is fascist. The practice in the U.S. proto-fascist." Before going any further into this argument, can you tell me why the U.S. practice in Iraq is fascist...as opposed to old-fashioned redcoated imperialism? Looks to me lik

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

* From: Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED] CB: Fascism is not just a domestic weapon. Where does that idea come from or >what is the argument for it ? A main feature of Nazism and Japanese fascism >was foreign wars. That fascism is not "used" against foreign enemies is not >histo

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Virtually every political list I'm on with any fair representation of Democrats has begun to feature a great deal of noisy drumbeating the old cadence of fear. For all the legislation and absurd statements by the Bush White House, it has shied away from testing most of this by doing something and

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

On Oct 24, 2006, at 10:32 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: Stan instead views such behavior as normal. He points to a July 7, 2006 NY Times article that describes a rising tide of white supremacist and neo-Nazi infiltration into the armed services. Unfortunately, the article relies exclusively on the te

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

The notion that the military is a hotbed of white supremacy contradicts everything I've heard about the institution. I thought they'd actually done a pretty good job of affirmative action, to the point, as it's often said, that the military is the only institution in U.S. society where white peopl

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

"If it does, it's low-key, just a couple of soldiers in small groups." Yep. ...and if left un...impeded, lots of them! Will the aryan nations of amerikkka 'inkspot' the military? Before making any hasty judgements about the military's ability to control the tendency without being proactive, we

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

On 10/24/06, Doug Henwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The notion that the military is a hotbed of white supremacy contradicts everything I've heard about the institution. I thought they'd actually done a pretty good job of affirmative action, to the point, as it's often said, that the military is

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

On Oct 24, 2006, at 4:52 PM, Jim Devine wrote: I think others, such as Timothy McVeigh, became crazy righties because they felt abandoned after the Gulf War. I read once, but only once, that McVeigh's job during the Gulf War was bulldozing the bodies of dead Iraqis into mass graves. If true,

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Julio wrote: Louis Proyect wrote: Although the two positions [in Stan Goff's articles] are not explicitly related, they do resonate with a line of reasoning found on the American left and more particularly with the Communist Party. Can you substantiate this a little? I read both pieces and c

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Not just white supremacists, though. There were several news items a while back in which U.S. Army Intelligence reported that there gang activities in Iran now, the result of their rather promiscuous recruitment politics in the U.S. ML

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Louis Proyect wrote: Any way you slice it, you don't get fascism without the threat of proletarian revolution. That might be going on somewhere else in the USA, but surely not in NYC. Without being too post-modern, would you be willing to entertain the (remote) possibility that some people are

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Julio: Without being too post-modern, would you be willing to entertain the (remote) possibility that some people are using the term "fascism" in a different sense than yours? Sure, I use the term in a different way from classical Marxism myself from time to time. Like the fascist NY Yankees or

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Julio Huato wrote: Without being too post-modern, would you be willing to entertain the (remote) possibility that some people are using the term "fascism" in a different sense than yours? If I may respond, even though you're not supposed to respond to rhetorical questions and Julio was asking L

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

On 10/25/06, Julio Huato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Louis Proyect wrote: > Any way you slice it, you don't get fascism > without the threat of proletarian revolution. > That might be going on somewhere else in the > USA, but surely not in NYC. Without being too post-modern, would you be willing

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

On 10/25/06, Jim Devine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: By saying that Bush's approach is "fascist," one is saying that he's like Mussolini He's 'like' Mussolini. In other words, calling Bush's approach fascist is a lot like those guys who interpret all events in terms of the 1917 Russian Revolut

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Army officials and the New York Times what reliable sources. Charles * From: Louis Proyect The New York Times December 13, 1995, Wednesday, Late Edition - Final Supremacists Scarce at Fort Bragg, Army Says By MICHAEL JANOFSKY DATELINE: FAYETTEVILLE, N.C., Dec. 12 Army officials at Fo

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

CB: What name shall we use for the likely response to one, two or three more "9/11"'s ? How can I answer hypothetical questions? In any case, fascism is the ultimate weapon against the ruling class's domestic adversary, not foreign ones. The IRA actually carried out far more "9/11's" than al Qae

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Everybody getting this? Something is fascist not because of its immediate practice but because of what we think is in the minds of some of the ruling class...or because someone channels as a "likely" sequence of reactions inside those minds later after some subsequent events An interesting ne

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

On 10/26/06, Louis Proyect <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I still see no qualitative advance toward a totalitarian state. Really! You need to get out more often... Fascism is not about selective repression. It is a generalized assault on all democratic rights, the jailing and mass murder of le

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Charles wrote: * Lou P.: This is the same complaint I got from Stan. I would prefer to deal with the substance. Any way you slice it, you don't get fascism without the threat of proletarian revolution. That might be going on somewhere else in the USA, but surely not in NYC. C

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Marv asks questions to Charles and comments: No doubt there are conservatives within the Republican party who want to curb the democratic rights which the masses have fought for and won under capitalism, and perhaps it even harbours closet fascists who would like to eliminate these entirely, but

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Julio writes: People can only think of new phenomena in terms of the old. It's only as the new phenomena mature that we get a fuller sense of its newness, and forge new concepts to articulate them. This pickiness about semantics is a distraction. Because -- to use Stan's phrase -- if we opera

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Charles wrote, "The immediate practice in Iraq is fascist. The practice in the U.S. proto-fascist." Before going any further into this argument, can you tell me why the U.S. practice in Iraq is fascist...as opposed to old-fashioned redcoated imperialism? Looks to me like pretty much standard oper

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

CB: Fascism is not just a domestic weapon. Where does that idea come from or what is the argument for it ? A main feature of Nazism and Japanese fascism was foreign wars. That fascism is not "used" against foreign enemies is not historiclly accurate. A central feature of Nazism was anti-Soviet war

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Louis Proyect wrote: Charles, student activists were beheaded in Germany for handing out anti-Nazi leaflets in 1944. I don't think we are anywhere near that situation today in the USA. . The current increasing crime trend of killing homeless people and so-called societal misfits for pleasure doe

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Leigh Meyers wrote, "The current increasing crime trend of killing homeless people and so-called societal misfits for pleasure doesn't set off the bells and whistles for you? The police act swiftly to find the culprits, too [Sarcasm dripping]!" Absolutely not. Not even close. Just a few of the d

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

I think people should read carefully Melvin P's recent postings, particularly his references to the history of fascism in the U.S. Fascism is an ideological and political movement that implanted itself in many different social soils, where it took peculiar characteristics -- Italy, Germany, Spain,

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Well, I know that Americans claim to have invented everything, but the US didn't invent fascism and there was no American fascism in the 1880s. You guys keep repeating that we should read what you write, but you are pretty good at just ignoring our questions. You're just using "fascist" as a poli

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

ML asks: IN YOUR MINDS, WHAT IS IT THAT JUSTIFIES CALLING IT FASCISM AS OPPOSED TO THE NORMAL WORKINGS OF CAPITALISM BTW, what would non-fascism look like? would that be socialism? or would it be what prevailed in the good old days? Jeffersonian or Jacksonian democracy? (I know, I know. Bu

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Marv wrote: Hi Julio: Is this discussion so heated, more so than the usual? I think it's alright. Election day is near and, naturally, the issues are touchy. I almost always agree with you, including your latest remarks about the reorientation of Goff, Fletcher, et al. I've thought for a lo

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Mark Lause wrote: To me, what has gone on here in the United States in the lat 1870s and 1880s or in the 1920s or in the 1950s or right now--which is not generally as bad as any of these earlier periods of repression--is just the same despicable ... At this juncture, I'd like to point out the

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Charles: What's distinctively non-fascist about the war on Iraq ? Is it that it's against a non-European people ? Winston S. Churchill: departmental minute (Churchill papers: 16/16) 12 May 1919 War Office I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopt

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism

Okay, so Charles has made his position clear. People were writing about "imperialism" since the 1890s. Charles is taking the position that imperialism is fascism. It's entirely revisionist but that's okay by me if we have a reason for it. And it's a reasonable position...sort of. But if you al

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism (...organized dangerous schmucks)

Another veteran that dares call it (incipent) fascism, early 1930s edition. [October 23 2006] Travus T. Hipp Morning News & Commentary: On The Current Trend Of Comparing The U.S. And It’s Policies To The Rise & Fall Of The Third Reich ...and today, about the ps

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - Imminent not the issue

  > For all the legislation and absurd statements by the Bush White House, ithas shied away from testing most of this by doing something and getting itbefore the courts.  In the end, I don't see it as much different than thelaws they had on the books during the Cold War, authorizing extrao

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade -correction

I still think that if fascists were in power, we wouldn't be having an open discussion of it. ML ^ CB :The time to fight the fascists is before they come to power. Once they are in power,it's too late. Use the continuing liberty to have open discussions about it to prevent it from happenin

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade -correction

> It is no different with George W. Bush.   Bush is a political fascist American brand or what Hillary Clinton called the far right and the CPUSA describes as ultra right and/or Christian right-wingers. Apparently the Christian in Christian right-wingers denotes a specific religious ideolog

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade -correction

I still think that if fascists were in power, we wouldn’t be having an open discussion of it.   ML      

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade -correction

Mark Lause wrote: I still think that if fascists were in power, we wouldn’t be having an open discussion of it. ML Leigh http://leighm.net/ NOTICE: George W. Bush has issued Executive Orders allowing the National Security Agency to read this message and all other e-mail you

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade -correction

Leigh wrote, "George W. Bush has issued Executive Orders allowing the National Security Agency to read this message and all other e-mail you receive or send---without warning, warrant or notice. Bush has ordered this to be done without any legislative or judicial oversight. You have no recourse n

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - Germany can fit inside Texas

By saying that Bush's approach is> "fascist," one is saying that he's like MussoliniHe's 'like' Mussolini.> In other words, calling Bush's approach fascist is a lot like those> guys who interpret all events in terms of the 1917 Russian Revolution.> --Which is why I put 'like' in '... '.Total

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade -correction

I still think that if fascists were in power, we wouldn’t be having an open discussion of it.   ML   Comment   The issue posed and stated by me was never fascists in power but a fascist in power seeking to change the constitutional regime. Why pose the issue as the immanent ascension to po

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism/ process logic of a reactionary bourgeois democracy

_ From: Marvin Gandall We're thinking of the same people, though I still characterize them as "conservatives" (even the most reactionary) because they haven't shown any intent of imposing a fascist dictatorship, ^^^ CB; I don't quite get what you mean that they haven't shown _any_ inten

[PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism/ process logic of a reactionary bourgeois democracy

From: Marvin Charles, let's keep perspective here. We're arguing over a word not a program, and since I know we agree about Iraq, Israel, the Patriot Act, Katrina, social spending cuts, and just about anything else you could name, I'm not sure how much value there is in pounding away at eac

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism/ process logic of a reactionary bourgeois democracy

  >> Do you consider the the Bush administration is "fascist", as some on the left do?   If so, what if the "fascist" Bush administration were at some point succeeded by one which outlawed elections, other political parties, unions, demonstrations, judicial review of its decisions, press a

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism/ process logic of a reactionary bourgeois democracy

Melvin P. wrote:   "I would call the Bush W. administration - (which needs to be thoroughly purged from government), the guardians of our American form of a reactionary bourgeois democracy or "neo-conservative...Is the ruling class going to try a fascist dictatorship as solution to the dislocat

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism/ process logic of a reactionary bourgeois democracy

Charles Brown wrote: I have been following American politics my whole life. So,has my mother who is not a radical. It's obvious to us that these Republicans are nuts, in terms of the context of the last 50 years. And the Dems are going along with it,not doing a damn thing to stop it. . Yup, sa

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism/ process logic of a reactionary bourgeois democracy

Charles wrote: CB; I don't quite get what you mean that they haven't shown _any_ intent of imposing a fascist dictatorship. They are steadily changing the laws of the land in a dictatorial direction. They are stealing elections, telling gigantic lies boldly ( and getting away with it), allowing

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism/ process logic of a reactionary bourgeois democracy

    >> I don't believe reactionary conservatism "grows into" fascism any more than social democracy grows into socialism. Both fascism and socialism are convulsive ruptures which destroy bourgeois democracy and the dominant role played by the conservative and liberal parties within it. Yo

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism/ process logic of a reactionary bourgeois democracy

OK, from Melvin P. perspective, fascism goes back to the founding of American civilization. I don't see the value of putting something under the microscope and then blurring the focus...and equating the nastiness of capitalism with fascism does just that...without the virtue of giving us any more

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism/ process logic of a reactionary bourgeois democracy

Thanks. I think everyone else has also. On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 04:23:47PM -0500, Charles Brown wrote: > > The discussion has been interesting, but I've exhausted whatever I had to > say. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Ma

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade against 34% North . . .Why?

> I don't think a dispute on the semantics of the category of fascism islikely to reveal much.  So why not focus on the *content* or socialmechanisms others are wishing to emphasize when they use the term orresort to analogies with Nazism and fascism?<   Comment   Electing me as Governor of

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade against 34% North . . .Why?

On Oct 25, 2006, at 2:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Electing me as Governor of Texas - (which officially is the first state in America to be a majority nonwhite) or President for that matter, with Michael Perlman taking Greenspans job, Lou. P being press secretary and everyone on Pen-L and othe

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade against 34% North . . .Why?

On Oct 25, 2006, at 2:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:> Electing me as Governor of Texas - (which officially is the first> state in America to be a majority nonwhite) or President for that> matter, with Michael Perlman taking Greenspans job, Lou. P being> press secretary and everyone on Pen-L

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade against 34% North . . .Why?

Ok, Melvin & other penners, who said this? "Many economists did not see financial economics as central to their discipline, viewing it as special relatively unimportant in almost the same way as the economics of ketchup, studied in isolation, would be trivial." On Wed, Oct 25, 2006 at 06:14:49P

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade against 34% North . . .Why?

>> Ok, Melvin & other penners, who said this?"Many economists did not see financial economics as central to their discipline, viewing it as special relatively unimportant in almost the same way as the economics of ketchup, studied in isolation, would be trivial." <<   Reply     I did not  .

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade against 34% North . . .Why?

oh hell. the context is a quote explaining that an economist is in principle interested in the relationship between the price of tomatoes and the price of ketchup, but a financial economist is the guy who tells you that a gallon of ketchup sells for the same price as eight pints and thinks he's to

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade against 34% North . . .Why?

Greetings Economists, On Oct 25, 2006, at 2:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: everyone on Pen-L and other assorted "leftist" list occupying Cabinet positions and positions throughout government Mr. President I want to work in NIST on assistive technology, and computers. I don't wanna be a manag

Re: [PEN-L] Stan Goff on fascism - 62% South say invade against 34% North . . .Why?

Very good. Samuelson's nephew and a hero of all on the list. Summers, Lawrence H. 1985. "On Economics and Finance." The Journal of Finance, 40: 3. Papers and Proceedings of the Forty-Third Annual Meeting American Finance Association, Dallas, Texas, December 28-30, 1984, pp. 633-35. On Thu, Oct