Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On 3/26/2012 1:21 PM, Glenn Linderman wrote: Hmm. And here's something else that might be missing: integration of the launcher with .py files that are actually ZIP archives... where does it find the #! line? (probably it can't, currently -- I couldn't figure out how to make it do it). Is it po

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On 3/26/2012 12:27 PM, PJ Eby wrote: On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Carl Meyer > wrote: No disagreement here. I think virtualenv's sweet spot is as a convenient tool for development environments (used in virtualenvwrapper fashion, where the file struct

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Carl Meyer wrote: > No disagreement here. I think virtualenv's sweet spot is as a convenient > tool for development environments (used in virtualenvwrapper fashion, > where the file structure of the virtualenv itself is hidden away and you > never see it at all).

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On 03/23/2012 09:22 PM, PJ Eby wrote: > On Mar 23, 2012 3:53 PM, "Carl Meyer" > On 03/23/2012 12:35 PM, PJ Eby wrote: >> > AFAICT, virtualenvs are overkill for most development anyway. If you're >> > not using distutils except to install dependencies, then configure >> > distutils to install scrip

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

I heard back from Enthought on this part of the proposal. They could accommodate this change. 1) The layout for the python root directory for all platforms should be as follows: stdlib = {base/userbase}/lib/ platstdlib = {base/userbase}/lib/ purelib = {base/userbase}/lib/site-packages platlib =

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

By dodging the issue entirely - anything I might want to regularly run from a source checkout I execute with -m. It gets sys.path right automatically and I don't need to care about platform specific executable naming conventions. -- Sent from my phone, thus the relative brevity :)

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 07:19, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 4:35 AM, PJ Eby wrote: >> Just dumping things in a directory adjacent to the corresponding scripts is >> the original virtualenv, and it still works just dandy -- most people just >> don't *know* this.  (And again, if th

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 4:35 AM, PJ Eby wrote: > Just dumping things in a directory adjacent to the corresponding scripts is > the original virtualenv, and it still works just dandy -- most people just > don't *know* this.  (And again, if there are tools out there that *don't* > support single-dir

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Mar 23, 2012 10:21 PM, "PJ Eby" wrote: > > > On Mar 23, 2012 4:19 PM, "VanL" wrote: > > > > Three notes. FIrst, distutils.cfg doesn't always work because it is centered around the idea of set paths that are the same each time - which doesn't always work with virtualenvs. > > And the virtualenv

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Mar 23, 2012 3:53 PM, "Carl Meyer" wrote: > > Hi PJ, > > On 03/23/2012 12:35 PM, PJ Eby wrote: > > AFAICT, virtualenvs are overkill for most development anyway. If you're > > not using distutils except to install dependencies, then configure > > distutils to install scripts and libraries to th

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Mar 23, 2012 4:19 PM, "VanL" wrote: > > Three notes. FIrst, distutils.cfg doesn't always work because it is centered around the idea of set paths that are the same each time - which doesn't always work with virtualenvs. And the virtualenv doesn't contain its own copy of distutils.cfg? > Secon

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Friday, March 23, 2012 at 1:35 PM, PJ Eby wrote: > Tool developers are going "meh" about your proposal because it doesn't > actually solve any problems for them: they still have to support the old > layout, and if their code already uses distutils' facilities for obtaining > paths, there's

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

Hi PJ, On 03/23/2012 12:35 PM, PJ Eby wrote: > AFAICT, virtualenvs are overkill for most development anyway. If you're > not using distutils except to install dependencies, then configure > distutils to install scripts and libraries to the same directory, and > then do all your development in tha

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Mar 23, 2012 1:37 PM, "VanL" wrote: > > On Friday, March 23, 2012 at 11:39 AM, PJ Eby wrote: >> >> Even if you are using tools that don't use distutils' configuration settings for these directories, why not simply fix those tools so that they do? > > > Thats what I do currently - I set things t

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Paul Moore wrote: > Another problem case: cx_Freeze. This currently breaks when installed > in a viretualenv, as it locates the "Scripts" directory by appending > "Scripts" to the directory of the python executable. > > So the proposed change *will* break cx_Freez

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Friday, March 23, 2012 at 11:39 AM, PJ Eby wrote: > Even if you are using tools that don't use distutils' configuration settings > for these directories, why not simply fix those tools so that they do? Thats what I do currently - I set things to bin and patch Python and the tools so that th

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Mar 22, 2012 2:57 PM, "VanL" wrote: > That said, while I think that the above is a good idea, my personal ambitions are more modest: If the names of the top-level directories only were changed to 'bin', 'lib', and 'include' - never mind differences under 'lib' - I would be happy. In fact, even

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

On 22 March 2012 23:15, VanL wrote: > Another use case was just pointed out to me: making things consistent with > buildout. Given a similar use > case (create repeatable cross platform environments), they create and use a > 'bin' directory for executable files. Another problem case: cx_Freeze.

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

On 23/03/2012 7:10 PM, Paul Moore wrote: On 23 March 2012 03:20, Brian Curtin wrote: Breakage of existing tools: Mark Hammond, Paul Moore, and Tim Golden have all expressed that they have existing tools that would break and would need to be adjusted to match the new location of the python.exe,

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

VanL wrote: > As this has been brought up a couple times in this subthread, I figured that > I would lay out the > rationale here. > > There are two proposals on the table: 1) Regularize the install layout, and > 2) move the python > binary to the binaries directory. This email will deal with

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

On 23 March 2012 03:20, Brian Curtin wrote: >> Breakage of existing tools: Mark Hammond, Paul Moore, and Tim Golden have >> all expressed that they have existing tools that would break and would need >> to be adjusted to match the new location of the python.exe, because that >> location is assumed

[Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

In http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2012-March/117953.html VanL wrote: > Paul Moore wrote: >> First of all, this difference is almost entirely *invisible*. Apart >> from possibly setting PATH (once!) users should not be digging around >> in the Python installation directory. Certainl

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

[snipped some CCs] On 23/03/2012 2:20 PM, Brian Curtin wrote: ... I get that tools could be affected. I had two IDE makers at PyCon immediately throw up red flags to this change. I think one of them was about to charge the stage during my talk. When it was mentioned that we could point them to t

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 18:26, Ethan Furman wrote: > Given the cost of the change, and the advent of the PEP-397 Launcher, I also > vote -1. Can you provide some justification other than a number? It's a pretty cheap change and the launcher solves somewhat of a different problem.

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

2012/3/22 VanL : > Open Issues: > > """If we do put python.exe on PATH (whether it's in bin or not), we have > to debate how to handle people having multiple versions of python on > their machine. In a post-PEP 397 world, no Python is "the machine > default" - .py files are associated with py.exe,

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 13:57, VanL wrote: > Honestly, I didn't expect that much resistance. None of the people I talked > to in person even cared, or if they did, they thought that consistency was a > benefit. But now that virtualenvs are going in in 3.3, I see this as the > last good chance to c

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 12:59, Paul Moore wrote: > Note - that is not "Regularizing the layout". You have not made any > changes to OS/2 (which matches Windows at the moment). I think that would be a wasted effort with OS/2 entering "unsupported" mode in 3.3, and OS/2 specific code being removed

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

Given the cost of the change, and the advent of the PEP-397 Launcher, I also vote -1. ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/pyth

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

(resending, only sent to Van the first time) FWIW, I avoid the directory naming problems Van describes entirely by including my "scripts" in the source package and running them with the "-m" switch. So "python -m pulpdist.manage_site", for example, is PulpDist's Django administration client wrapp

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

Another use case was just pointed out to me: making things consistent with buildout. Given a similar use case (create repeatable cross platform environments), they create and use a 'bin' directory for executable files. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Pytho

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

I'm responding to both of Van's recent messages in one: On 23/03/2012 1:47 AM, VanL wrote: [PART 2: Moving the python binary] ... A regular complaint of those new to Python on windows (and new to programming generally) has been that one of the first things that they need to do is to edit the P

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

Hi Paul, To start with, I appreciate your comments, and it is worth having both sides expressed. On 3/22/2012 12:59 PM, Paul Moore wrote: I'm repeating myself here after I promised not to. My apologies, but I don't think this posting captures the debate completely. One reason I suggested a P

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

On 22 March 2012 14:17, VanL wrote: > As this has been brought up a couple times in this subthread, I figured that > I would lay out the rationale here. I'm repeating myself here after I promised not to. My apologies, but I don't think this posting captures the debate completely. One reason I sug

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 2: Moving the python.exe)

[PART 2: Moving the python binary] There are two proposals on the table: 1) Regularize the install layout, and 2) move the python binary to the binaries directory. This email deals with the second issue exclusively. This has been the more contentious issue. 2) Moving the Python exe: A regula

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32 (Rationale part 1: Regularizing the layout)

As this has been brought up a couple times in this subthread, I figured that I would lay out the rationale here. There are two proposals on the table: 1) Regularize the install layout, and 2) move the python binary to the binaries directory. This email will deal with the first, and a second em

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 21/03/2012 23:03, Paul Moore wrote: On 21 March 2012 22:43, Mark Hammond wrote: On 22/03/2012 1:22 AM, Lindberg, Van wrote: Mark, MAL, Martin, Tarek, Could you comment on this? Eric is correct - tools will be broken by this change. However, people seem willing to push forward on this

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

Cleaning up the absurd CC line On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Paul Moore wrote: > I agree on all points here. I don't understand quite why backward > compatibility is being treated so lightly here. But equally, I've made > my points and have little further to add. As a non-Windows user wh

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 21 March 2012 22:43, Mark Hammond wrote: > On 22/03/2012 1:22 AM, Lindberg, Van wrote: >> >> Mark, MAL, Martin, Tarek, >> >> Could you comment on this? > > > Eric is correct - tools will be broken by this change.  However, people seem > willing to push forward on this and accept such breakage a

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 22/03/2012 1:22 AM, Lindberg, Van wrote: Mark, MAL, Martin, Tarek, Could you comment on this? Eric is correct - tools will be broken by this change. However, people seem willing to push forward on this and accept such breakage as the necessary cost. MAL, in his followup, asks what the

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

Lindberg, Van wrote: > Mark, MAL, Martin, Tarek, > > Could you comment on this? > > This is in the context of changing the name of the 'Scripts' directory > on windows to 'bin'. Éric brings up the point (explained more below) > that if we make this change, packages made/installed the new pack

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

Mark, MAL, Martin, Tarek, Could you comment on this? This is in the context of changing the name of the 'Scripts' directory on windows to 'bin'. Éric brings up the point (explained more below) that if we make this change, packages made/installed the new packaging infrastructure and those made/

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

R. David Murray wrote: My understanding, though, is that Python does make a distinction between a system install of Python and a per-user one, so I don't think your objection really applies. Seems to me that for Python at least, the important distinction is not so much where the files are place

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

Hi, Le 20/03/2012 21:40, VanL a écrit : > On Tuesday, March 20, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Paul Moore wrote: >> It's worth remembering Éric's point - distutils is frozen and changes >> are in theory not allowed. This part of the proposal is not possible >> without an exception to that ruling. Personally, I

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On Tuesday, March 20, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Paul Moore wrote: > It's worth remembering Éric's point - distutils is frozen and changes > are in theory not allowed. This part of the proposal is not possible > without an exception to that ruling. Personally, I don't see how > making this change could be a

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 4:25 PM, Mark Hammond wrote: I think it does. Consider I've installed Python as a "system install". Now I want to install some other package - ideally that installer will request elevation - all well and good - the .py files are installed. However, next time I want to run Python,

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 21/03/2012 9:45 AM, R. David Murray wrote: On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:09:38 +1100, Mark Hammond wrote: On 21/03/2012 5:50 AM, Merlijn van Deen wrote: I asked a question about this on IRC, to which the response was that there were two main reasons to install python in c:\pythonxy: 1 - issues d

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 09:09:38 +1100, Mark Hammond wrote: > On 21/03/2012 5:50 AM, Merlijn van Deen wrote: > > I asked a question about this on IRC, to which the response was that > > there were two main reasons to install python in c:\pythonxy: > > > > 1 - issues due to spaces ('Program Files') or

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 21/03/2012 5:50 AM, Merlijn van Deen wrote: On 13 March 2012 20:43, VanL wrote: Following up on conversations at PyCon, I want to bring up one of my personal hobby horses for change in 3.3: Fix install layout on Windows, with a side order of making the PATH work better. As this is being co

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 20 March 2012 22:00, VanL wrote: > On 3/20/2012 4:49 PM, Mark Hammond wrote: >> >> So I'm assuming that: >> * The executable (and DLL) are moved to a "bin" directory in an installed >> Python. >> * distutils etc will change to install all "scripts" (or executables >> generated from scripts) int

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 4:49 PM, Mark Hammond wrote: So I'm assuming that: * The executable (and DLL) are moved to a "bin" directory in an installed Python. * distutils etc will change to install all "scripts" (or executables generated from scripts) into that same directory. IOW, "Scripts" would die. *

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 21/03/2012 1:08 AM, Lindberg, Van wrote: On 3/20/2012 5:48 AM, Mark Hammond wrote: While I'm still unclear on the actual benefits of this, Martin's approach strikes a reasonable compromise so I withdraw my objections. Ok. I was out of town and so could not respond to most of the latest dis

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 3:31 PM, Paul Moore wrote: > Serious question: Given a brand new PC, if you were installing Python > 2.7, 3.2, 3.3a1, jython, and pypy, what would you do (beyond simply > running 5 installers) to get your environment set up the way you want? I install each python in its own directory:

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 11:50 AM, Merlijn van Deen wrote: As this is being considered an 'incompatible change' on the bug tracker item [1] in any case, I'd like to mention that this might also be a convenient moment to re-think the default install location. After all, software is supposed to be installed in

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 3:15 PM, Paul Moore wrote: On 20 March 2012 19:35, Lindberg, Van wrote: I would like to know if you would object to user lib installs matching the system install. I.e., would it cause problems with you if it were just 'lib' everywhere, with no 'lib/python{version}'? It sounded like

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 20 March 2012 19:22, VanL wrote: > There are a number of casual users that probably only have one version > installed, but every python user/dev on windows that I know has one python > that they consider to be "python," and everything else needs to be launched > with a suffix (e.g., python26.ex

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 20 March 2012 19:35, Lindberg, Van wrote: > I would like to know if you would object to user lib installs matching > the system install. I.e., would it cause problems with you if it were > just 'lib' everywhere, with no 'lib/python{version}'? It sounded like > adding the version directory was t

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 1:19 PM, Paul Moore wrote: > Somewhat. I don't really object to #1, but mildly object to #2. I also > note that the proposals round the Lib directory seem to have > disappeared. I assume those have been dropped - they were the ones I > did object to. They are of secondary importance t

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 1:56 PM, Paul Moore wrote: This is covered (better, IMO) by PEP 397 - Python Launcher for Windows. Step 2, just run "py". If you prefer a particular version, run "py -2" or "py -3" or "py -3.2". Interesting. I haven't played around with that at all, so can't comment. I will hav

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 1:50 PM, Merlijn van Deen wrote: On 13 March 2012 20:43, VanL wrote: Following up on conversations at PyCon, I want to bring up one of my personal hobby horses for change in 3.3: Fix install layout on Windows, with a side order of making the PATH work better. As this is being con

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 20 March 2012 14:27, VanL wrote: > Germane to this discussion, I reached out for feedback. Most people didn't > care about the issue, or were slightly inclined to have it be uniform across > platforms. > > As Terry mentioned, I think that long-term uniformity will benefit everybody > down the l

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 13 March 2012 20:43, VanL wrote: > Following up on conversations at PyCon, I want to bring up one of my > personal hobby horses for change in 3.3: Fix install layout on Windows, with > a side order of making the PATH work better. As this is being considered an 'incompatible change' on the bug

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 03/20/2012 12:19 PM, Paul Moore wrote: > I also note that I'm assuming virtualenv will change to match whatever > the Python version it's referencing does. I don't see how you can > guarantee that, but if there are discrepancies between virtualenvs and > installed Pythons, my level of objection

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

When IDLE crashes, running it from a cmd window is the only way to get a traceback to help diagnose the problem. Certainly. In this case, there is no PATH issue, though: you have to CD into the Python installation, anyway, to start IDLE - and there you have python.exe in the current directory.

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 20 March 2012 14:08, Lindberg, Van wrote: > On 3/20/2012 5:48 AM, Mark Hammond wrote: >> While I'm still unclear on the actual benefits of this, Martin's >> approach strikes a reasonable compromise so I withdraw my objections. > > > Ok. I was out of town and so could not respond to most of the

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 11:19 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: No - there is an version #3a: 3.a) Get a shell and run the script CD into the directory, then directly run foo.py, without prefixing it with python.exe. This doesn't require any changes to the path, and is shorter in usage than having the path sp

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 12:02 PM, VanL wrote: On 3/20/2012 10:52 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: In hearing from a couple people who teach python to beginners, this is a substantial hurdle - the first thing they need to do is to edit their environment to add these directories to the PATH. This is something I

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 11:19 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: No - there is an version #3a: 3.a) Get a shell and run the script CD into the directory, then directly run foo.py, without prefixing it with python.exe. This doesn't require any changes to the path, and is shorter in usage than having the path spe

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

> 1. Run python from the start menu. > - Import sys, fiddle with sys.path to add my module, import/run my > module, do my tests. When you exit /hard error out, the python window > disappears. > > 2. Double-click the .py file > - Runs the file, but then disappears immediately (unless you put in > s

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:52, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: >> In hearing from a couple people who teach python to beginners, this is a >> substantial hurdle - the first thing they need to do is to edit their >> environment to add these directories to the PATH. > > This is something I never understood

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 10:52 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: In hearing from a couple people who teach python to beginners, this is a substantial hurdle - the first thing they need to do is to edit their environment to add these directories to the PATH. This is something I never understood. On Windows, it's

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

> In hearing from a couple people who teach python to beginners, this is a > substantial hurdle - the first thing they need to do is to edit their > environment to add these directories to the PATH. This is something I never understood. On Windows, it's custom to launch programs from the start men

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

Germane to this discussion, I reached out for feedback. Most people didn't care about the issue, or were slightly inclined to have it be uniform across platforms. As Terry mentioned, I think that long-term uniformity will benefit everybody down the line, and that is the way to go. The most i

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 20/03/2012 14:08, VanL wrote: On 3/20/2012 5:48 AM, Mark Hammond wrote: While I'm still unclear on the actual benefits of this, Martin's approach strikes a reasonable compromise so I withdraw my objections. Ok. I was out of town and so could not respond to most of the latest discussion. A

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/20/2012 5:48 AM, Mark Hammond wrote: > While I'm still unclear on the actual benefits of this, Martin's > approach strikes a reasonable compromise so I withdraw my objections. Ok. I was out of town and so could not respond to most of the latest discussion. A question for you Mark, Paul, (a

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

For those who missed it, in http://bugs.python.org/issue14302, Martin recently commented: """ After more discussion, it appears that this change is too incompatible to be done in a single release. Therefore, I propose a long-term change into this direction, with the actual change not happeni

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/17/2012 10:50 AM, Paul Moore wrote: Meh. None of this is a real issue. It's just some extra messy coding. But Van's point is that this proposal gives him less hard coding. Beyond pointing out that it gives me more, I don't have much to add. I suspect a case could be made that harmonizatio

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 17 March 2012 14:07, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: > 17.03.12 13:57, Paul Moore написав(ла): > >> As there is no >> way of knowing the Python version without running Python, this is too >> slow to be practical. > > > Cold start: > $ time python3 --version > Python 3.1.2 > > real    0m0.073s > user  

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

17.03.12 13:57, Paul Moore написав(ла): As there is no way of knowing the Python version without running Python, this is too slow to be practical. Cold start: $ time python3 --version Python 3.1.2 real0m0.073s user0m0.004s sys 0m0.004s Hot start: $ time python3 --version Python 3.

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 17 March 2012 05:28, Mark Hammond wrote: >> I hate to seem like I'm piling on now after panning your last brainstorm >> :-), but... this would be quite problematic for virtualenv users, many >> of whom do rely on the fact that the virtualenv "stuff" is confined to >> within a limited set of kn

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 17/03/2012 12:25 PM, Carl Meyer wrote: Hi Mark, On 03/16/2012 05:53 PM, Mark Hammond wrote: * All executables and scripts go into the root of the Python install. This directory is largely empty now - it is mainly a container for other directories. This would solve the problem of needing 2 d

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/16/2012 6:25 PM, Carl Meyer wrote: Hi Mark, On 03/16/2012 05:53 PM, Mark Hammond wrote: * All executables and scripts go into the root of the Python install. This directory is largely empty now - it is mainly a container for other directories. This would solve the problem of needing 2 dir

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

Hi Mark, On 03/16/2012 05:53 PM, Mark Hammond wrote: > * All executables and scripts go into the root of the Python install. > This directory is largely empty now - it is mainly a container for other > directories. This would solve the problem of needing 2 directories on > the PATH and mean exist

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 17/03/2012 12:07 PM, Brian Curtin wrote: On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 19:53, Mark Hammond wrote: For the sake of brain-storming, how about this: * All executables and scripts go into the root of the Python install. This directory is largely empty now - it is mainly a container for other director

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 19:53, Mark Hammond wrote: > For the sake of brain-storming, how about this: > > * All executables and scripts go into the root of the Python install. This > directory is largely empty now - it is mainly a container for other > directories.  This would solve the problem of

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 14/03/2012 6:43 AM, VanL wrote: Following up on conversations at PyCon, I want to bring up one of my personal hobby horses for change in 3.3: Fix install layout on Windows, with a side order of making the PATH work better. ... For the sake of brain-storming, how about this: * All executabl

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 17/03/2012 7:22 AM, Carl Meyer wrote: ... I don't want to make the internal layout of a virtualenv differ from the system Python layout on the same platform, which (IIUC) was Mark's proposal. Just to be clear, I made that suggestion in an effort to keep both myself and Van - that the Pytho

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

Hi Van, On 03/16/2012 08:08 AM, Lindberg, Van wrote: >> Changing the directory name is in fact a new and different (and much >> more invasive) special case, because distutils et al install scripts >> there, and that directory name is part of the distutils install scheme. >> Installers don't care w

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/16/2012 12:22 PM, Lindberg, Van wrote: env/ bin/ python pip easy_install my_script In http://bugs.python.org/issue14302 Brian Curtin claims "After talks at PyCon with several people, python.exe will live in C:\Python33\bin rather than C:\Python33 to come more i

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/16/2012 11:57 AM, Glenn Linderman wrote: > So I think I'm finally beginning to see the underlying reason why Van is > desiring this consistency: It is not that he wants to check in his > installation of Python, but that he wants to check in his installation > of his packages and scripts into

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/16/2012 9:22 AM, Lindberg, Van wrote: On 3/16/2012 10:53 AM, Paul Moore wrote: > The only way I can read this to make sense is that you somehow > consider the Python installation as part of your development > environment (you mentioned source control earlier in the thread - > surely you

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/16/2012 10:53 AM, Paul Moore wrote: > The only way I can read this to make sense is that you somehow > consider the Python installation as part of your development > environment (you mentioned source control earlier in the thread - > surely you don't manage your Python installation in source c

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 16 March 2012 15:17, Lindberg, Van wrote: > This is not a "we should be consistent" argument - I know that would > never fly. I do cross-platform dev all the time (develop on Windows and > Mac, deploy on Linux) and so this bites me *every single time* I want to > get a consistent layout between

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

Hi, Le 16/03/2012 16:17, Lindberg, Van a écrit : > On 3/16/2012 3:38 AM, Paul Moore wrote: >> 1. The incompatibilities between platforms is precisely the problem >> that sysconfig is designed to solve, isn't it? So tools in Python will >> either use sysconfig (and be correct regardless of layout)

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/16/2012 3:38 AM, Paul Moore wrote: > On 16 March 2012 00:12, Carl Meyer wrote: >> Changing the directory name is in fact a new and different (and much >> more invasive) special case, because distutils et al install scripts >> there, and that directory name is part of the distutils install sch

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

Carl - > Changing the directory name is in fact a new and different (and much > more invasive) special case, because distutils et al install scripts > there, and that directory name is part of the distutils install scheme. > Installers don't care where the Python binary is located, so moving it >

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 3/15/2012 6:19 PM, Mark Hammond wrote: [At least I think that is your proposal - can you confirm that the directory layouts in your proposal exactly match the directory layouts in virtual envs on all other platforms? ie, that inconsistencies like the python{py_version_short} suffix will not re

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 16 March 2012 00:12, Carl Meyer wrote: > Changing the directory name is in fact a new and different (and much > more invasive) special case, because distutils et al install scripts > there, and that directory name is part of the distutils install scheme. > Installers don't care where the Python

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 03/15/2012 05:10 PM, Mark Hammond wrote: > On 16/03/2012 10:48 AM, Carl Meyer wrote: >> The implementation of virtualenv (and especially PEP 405 pyvenv) are >> largely based around making sure that the internal layout of a >> virtualenv is identical to the layout of an installed Python on that >

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 16/03/2012 10:48 AM, Carl Meyer wrote: ... The implementation of virtualenv (and especially PEP 405 pyvenv) are largely based around making sure that the internal layout of a virtualenv is identical to the layout of an installed Python on that same platform, to avoid any need to special-case

Re: [Python-Dev] Python install layout and the PATH on win32

On 03/15/2012 04:19 PM, Mark Hammond wrote: > On 16/03/2012 8:57 AM, VanL wrote: >> On 3/14/2012 6:30 PM, Mark Hammond wrote: >>> >>> So why not just standardize on that new layout for virtualenvs? >> >> That sounds like the worst of all worlds - keep all the existing special >> cases, and add one.

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