Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-23 Thread Gunnar Peterson
Just because people can look at a project in detail, doesn't mean they will. More to the point, just because people can, doesn't mean code auditing gurus will look at it. And sometimes, when they do look they get booted out of the project http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/82500 -gp

[SC-L] [fuzzing] MoKB take?

2007-03-22 Thread J. M. Seitz
We are having a good thread going on fuzzing, commercial tools, etc. on the fuzzing list. This is a large forward but I thought some of you might want to weigh in, or at least take a look at the thread. JS Hello all, Although we at Codenomicon do not fuzz in the true meaning of the word (that

[SC-L] Reminder: IEEE Workshop: W2SP 2007: Web 2.0 Security and Privacy 2007

2007-03-22 Thread Larry Koved
http://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2007/cfp-W2SP.html Workshop Call for Position Papers W2SP 2007: Web 2.0 Security and Privacy 2007 Sponsored by the IEEE Technical Committee on Security and Privacy Held in conjunction with the 2007 IEEE Symposium on Security and Privacy Thursday, May 24, The

[SC-L] Chinese Professor Cracks Fifth Data Security Algorithm (SHA-1)

2007-03-21 Thread Michael Silk
Awesome. --- http://en.epochtimes.com/tools/printer.asp?id=50336 The Epoch Times Home Science Technology Chinese Professor Cracks Fifth Data Security Algorithm SHA-1 added to list of accomplishments Central News Agency Jan 11, 2007 Associate professor Wang

[SC-L] statical analysis tools: language supports...

2007-03-21 Thread Indrek Saar
Hi guys, I have question about source-code statical analysis tools that are available at the market now. Are there tools that support C/C++, Java, PHP, Flash (actionscript) all in one? Most of the tools support C/C++ and Java, but I have not found any that can handle also PHP. Do you know some?

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-21 Thread McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)
Kevin, I would love to see open source communities embrace secure coding practices with stronger assistance from software vendors in this space. This of course requires going beyond audit capability and figuring out ways to get the tools into developers hands. As a contributor to open source

Re: [SC-L] statical analysis tools: language supports...

2007-03-21 Thread J. M. Seitz
RATS will do PHP as well there is a plugin for Eclipse that will do static analysis on PHP code which is called Pixy. The next step would be to investigate some of the tools from SPI Dynamics, a few of them are black-box but if you combine some black-box testing with some static analysis, add some

Re: [SC-L] [Full-disclosure] Chinese Professor Cracks Fifth Data Security Algorithm (SHA-1)

2007-03-21 Thread der Mouse
Cracking a hash would [...]. There are an infinite number of messages that all hash to the same value. Yes, but there's no guarantee that this is true of any particular hash value, such as the one you're intersted in, only that there exists at least one hash value that it's true of. (At

Re: [SC-L] statical analysis tools: language supports...

2007-03-21 Thread Sebastien Deleersnyder
Hi, Correction: Paros Proxy is owned and copyrighted by Chinotec Technologies Co. OWASP provides another usefull tool: WebScarab (http://www.owasp.org/index.php/OWASP_WebScarab_Project) I you look for PHP security resources, http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Category:OWASP_PHP_Project can

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-21 Thread Arian J. Evans
Spot on thread, Ed: On 3/20/07, Ed Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not all of these are consumer uprisings - some are, some aren't - but I think they're all examples of the kinds of economic adjustments that occur in mature markets. - Unsafe at any speed (the triumph of consumer safety over

Re: [SC-L] [Full-disclosure] Chinese Professor Cracks Fifth Data Security Algorithm (SHA-1)

2007-03-21 Thread Blue Boar
3APA3A wrote: First, by reading 'crack' I thought lady can recover full message by it's signature. After careful reading she can bruteforce collisions 2000 times faster. Cracking a hash would never mean recovering the full original message, except for possibly messages that were smaller

Re: [SC-L] [Full-disclosure] Chinese Professor Cracks Fifth Data Security Algorithm (SHA-1)

2007-03-21 Thread Blue Boar
3APA3A wrote: I know meaning of 'hash function' term, I wrote few articles on challenge-response authentication and I did few hash functions implementations for hashtables and authentication in FreeRADIUS and 3proxy. Can I claim my right for sarcasm after calling

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-21 Thread Steven M. Christey
On Wed, 21 Mar 2007, mudge wrote: Sorry, but I couldn't help but be reminded of an old L0pht topic that we brought up in January of 1999. Having just re-read it I found it still relatively poignant: Cyberspace Underwriters Laboratories[1]. I was thinking about this, too, I should have

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-21 Thread Steven M. Christey
I was originally going to say this off-list, but it's not that big a deal. Arian J. Evans said: I think you are on to something here in how to think about this subject. Perhaps I should float my little paper out there and we could shape up something worth while describing how the industry is

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-21 Thread mudge
On Mar 21, 2007, at 3:57 PM, Arian J. Evans wrote: Spot on thread, Ed: On 3/20/07, Ed Reed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not all of these are consumer uprisings - some are, some aren't - but I think they're all examples of the kinds of economic adjustments that occur in mature markets.

Re: [SC-L] [Full-disclosure] Chinese Professor Cracks Fifth Data Security Algorithm (SHA-1)

2007-03-21 Thread Blue Boar
My understanding that the kind of birthday attack under discussion would start at 80-bits if SHA-1 (at 160-bits) were 100% secure. The attack under discussion is reported to reduce that to the neighborhood of 60-something bits. I am not a mathematician though, so I would be perfectly willing to

Re: [SC-L] How is secure coding sold within enterprises?

2007-03-20 Thread McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)
Thanks for the response. I already own the book and understand how to engage vendors. Where I am seeking assistance is all the work that goes on within a large enterprise before these two things occur. The ideal situation for me would be to get my hands on the five to ten page Powerpoint slide

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-20 Thread ljknews
At 8:55 AM -0400 3/20/07, Michael S Hines wrote: I'm not sure what your sources are but from what I'm hearing and reading the problem is that there are many missing drivers for what have become standard peripherals that people are used to - and some of the vendors are reluctant to develop new

Re: [SC-L] How is secure coding sold within enterprises?

2007-03-20 Thread Gunnar Peterson
JD Meier had a good post recently on influencing without authority, which is the position security finds itself in: 1. assume all potential allies 2. clarify goals and priorities 3. diagnose the allies world 4. identify relevant currencies 5. deal with relationships 6. influence through give and

[SC-L] Question on User Groups

2007-03-20 Thread McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)
Quick question for folks here. I participate in multiple user-groups and the topic of secure coding practices has never appeared. What would it take for a software vendor on this list to present to the CT OO Users Group ( www.cooug.org). These events are well attended. Likewise, I am also a

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-20 Thread Wall, Kevin
James McGovern apparently wrote... The uprising from customers may already be starting. It is called open source. The real question is what is the duty of others on this forum to make sure that newly created software doesn't suffer from the same problems as the commercial closed source

[SC-L] How is secure coding sold within enterprises?

2007-03-19 Thread McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)
I am attempting to figure out how other Fortune enterprises have went about selling the need for secure coding practices and can't seem to find the answer I seek. Essentially, I have discovered that one of a few scenarios exist (a) the leadership chain was highly technical and intuitively

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Gary McGraw
Very interesting. Crispin is in the throes of big software. Anybody want to help me mount a rescue campaign from jamaica? gem company www.cigital.com podcast www.cigital.com/silverbullet blog www.cigital.com/justiceleague book www.swsec.com -Original Message- From: Crispin Cowan

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Crispin Cowan
Gary McGraw wrote: I'm not sure vista is bombing because of good quality. That certainly would be ironic. Word on the way down in the guts street is that vista is too many things cobbled together into one big kinda functioning mess. I.e. it is mis-featured, and lacks on some

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Ed Reed
Crispin Cowan wrote: Crispin, now believes that users are fundamentally what holds back security I was once berated on stage by Jamie Lewis for sounding like I was placing the blame for poor security on customers themselves. I have moved on, and believe, instead, that it is the economic

Re: [SC-L] How is secure coding sold within enterprises?

2007-03-19 Thread Andrew van der Stock
In terms of creating a SDLC, pop out to Borders and get Howard and Lipner¹s ³The Security Development Lifecycle² ISBN 9780735622142 http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/8753.aspx It is simply the best text I¹ve read in a long time. You may be interested in the work Mark Curphey et al is doing

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Crispin Cowan
Ed Reed wrote: Crispin Cowan wrote: Crispin, now believes that users are fundamentally what holds back security I was once berated on stage by Jamie Lewis for sounding like I was placing the blame for poor security on customers themselves. Fight back harder. Jamie is wrong.

Re: [SC-L] How is secure coding sold within enterprises?

2007-03-19 Thread John Steven
Andrew, James, Agreed, Microsoft has put some interesting thoughts out in their SDL book. Companies that produce a software product will find a lot of this approach resonates well. IT shops supporting financial houses will have more difficulty. McGraw wrote a decent blog entry on this

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-19 Thread Steven M. Christey
On Mon, 19 Mar 2007, Crispin Cowan wrote: Since many users are economically motivated, this may explain why users don't care much about security :) But... but... but... I understand the sentiment, but there's something missing in it. Namely, that the costs related to security are not really

[SC-L] OWASP Spring of Code 2007

2007-03-16 Thread Dinis Cruz
Following the success of last year's OWASP Autumn of Codehttp://www.owasp.org/index.php/OWASP_Autumn_Of_Code_2006(AoC 06) we are are now launching the OWASP Spring of Code 2007http://www.owasp.org/index.php/OWASP_Spring_Of_Code_2007(SpoC 007) with more budget, more energy and more expectations

[SC-L] Silver Bullet: Becky Bace

2007-03-14 Thread Gary McGraw
Hi all, The 12th episode of the Silver Bullet Security Podcast went live last night. This episode features an interview with Becky Bace, one of the earliest security gurus and a very interesting woman. http://www.cigital.com/silverbullet/show-012/ As usual, my thanks to IEEE Security Privacy

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-13 Thread Gary McGraw
In my opinion, though fuzz testing is certainly a useful technique (we've used it in hardware verification for years), any certification based solely on fuzz testing for security would be ludicrous. Fuzz testing is not a silver bullet. The biggest stumbling block for software certification is

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-13 Thread Gary McGraw
Hi crispy, I'm not sure vista is bombing because of good quality. That certainly would be ironic. Word on the way down in the guts street is that vista is too many things cobbled together into one big kinda functioning mess. My bet is that Vista SP2 will be a completely different beast.

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-13 Thread Gadi Evron
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, Gary McGraw wrote: In my opinion, though fuzz testing is certainly a useful technique (we've used it in hardware verification for years), any certification based solely on fuzz testing for security would be ludicrous. Fuzz testing is not a silver bullet. Fuzzing is

Re: [SC-L] Darkreading: compliance

2007-03-13 Thread Bruce Ediger
On Tue, 13 Mar 2007, somebody wrote (attribution isn't clear to me): no. my feeling is that it focuses management on unimportant things like meeting checkpoints rather then actually doing useful things. I heartily agree. Compliance almost always becomes (in the worst sense of the word) a

Re: [SC-L] Information Protection Policies

2007-03-13 Thread Kenneth Van Wyk
On Mar 9, 2007, at 5:27 PM, McGovern, James F ((HTSC, IT)) wrote: Ken, in terms of a previous response to your posting in terms of getting customers to ask for secure coding practices from vendors, wouldn't it start with figuring out how they could simply cut-and- paste InfoSec policies into

Re: [SC-L] Darkreading: compliance

2007-03-13 Thread Gary McGraw
Once again i'll ask. Which vertical is the kind of company where you're seeing this awful behavior in? BTW, sammy migues agrees with you in a thread we're having on the justice league blog www.cigital.com/justiceleague (look under SOX). gem company www.cigital.com podcast

Re: [SC-L] Information Protection Policies

2007-03-13 Thread Gary McGraw
There is a text box in Software Security about this with some language I copied (with permission) from jack danahy of ounce labs. www.swsec.com gem company www.cigital.com podcast www.cigital.com/silverbullet blog www.cigital.com/justiceleague book www.swsec.com -Original Message-

Re: [SC-L] Darkreading: compliance

2007-03-13 Thread Michael Silk
On 3/14/07, Gary McGraw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again i'll ask. Which vertical is the kind of company where you're seeing this awful behavior in? well, fwiw, i've noticed it in finance/investment, and the entertainment industries. but i honestly don't think the industry type makes a

[SC-L] Darkreading: compliance

2007-03-12 Thread Gary McGraw
hi sc-l, this month's darkreading column is about compliance. my own belief is that compliance has really helped move software security forward. in particular, sox and pci have been a boon: http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=119163 what do you think? have compliance efforts you

Re: [SC-L] Darkreading: compliance

2007-03-12 Thread Gary McGraw
Maybe it depends on the vertical? What vertical(s) did you find it a distraction in? gem -Original Message- From: Michael Silk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon Mar 12 17:34:56 2007 To: Gary McGraw Cc: SC-L@securecoding.org Subject:Re: [SC-L] Darkreading:

Re: [SC-L] Darkreading: compliance

2007-03-12 Thread Michael Silk
On 3/13/07, Gary McGraw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi sc-l, this month's darkreading column is about compliance. my own belief is that compliance has really helped move software security forward. in particular, sox and pci have been a boon:

Re: [SC-L] Darkreading: compliance

2007-03-12 Thread bugtraq
what do you think? have compliance efforts you know about helped to forward software security? Compliance brings accountability. Without accountability or financial impact people have little incentive for putting security on the priority list. I for one welcome our compliance overlords.

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-12 Thread Crispin Cowan
Ed Reed wrote: For a long time I thought that software product liability would eventually be forced onto developers in response to their long-term failure to take responsibility for their shoddy code. I was mistaken. The pool of producers (i.e., the software industry) is probably too small

Re: [SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-12 Thread Gadi Evron
On Mon, 12 Mar 2007, Crispin Cowan wrote: Ed Reed wrote: For a long time I thought that software product liability would eventually be forced onto developers in response to their long-term failure to take responsibility for their shoddy code. I was mistaken. The pool of producers (i.e.,

[SC-L] SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-11 Thread Jason Grembi
I'm not a CISSP person just because my clients haven't required it yet. However, they are concerned with application security and restricting access to those who are not authorized (in addition to XSS, SQL injection, and the usual list of suspects). I call myself a 'secure developer' only

Re: [SC-L] Information Protection Policies

2007-03-10 Thread Steven M. Christey
On a slightly tangential note, and apologies if this was mentioned on this list previously, OWASP has some guidelines on how consumers can write up contracts with their vendors related to secure software: http://www.owasp.org/index.php/OWASP_Secure_Software_Contract_Annex - Steve

Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-09 Thread Michael S Hines
I respectfully disagree. The need for a firewall or IDS is due to the poor coding of the receptor of network traffic - so you have to prevent bad things from reaching the receptor (which is the TCP/IP stack and then the host operating system - and then the middleware and then the application).

Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-09 Thread Benjamin Tomhave
I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you, there, Michael. You're looking at things far too narrowly. And here's a very simple example: Small business. Single DMZ. Hosts DB and Web App on separate platforms. Web app needs to make back-end calls to DB. There's no reason whatsoever why

Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-09 Thread SC-L Subscriber Dave Aronson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: certifications such as CISSP whereby the exams that prove you are a security professional talk all about physical security and network security but really don't address software development in any meaningful way. Perhaps what is needed is a separate certification.

Re: [SC-L] Information Protection Policies

2007-03-09 Thread McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)
Ken, in terms of a previous response to your posting in terms of getting customers to ask for secure coding practices from vendors, wouldn't it start with figuring out how they could simply cut-and-paste InfoSec policies into their own? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[SC-L] Information Protection Policies

2007-03-08 Thread McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)
Hopefully lots of the consultants on this list have been wildly successful in getting Fortune enterprises to embrace secure coding practices. I am curious to learn of those who have also been successful in getting these same Fortune enterprises to incorporate the notion of secure coding

[SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-08 Thread McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)
If you have two individuals, one of which has been practicing secure coding practices and encouraging others to do so for years while another individual was involved with firewalls, intrusion detection, information security policies and so on, are they both information security professionals or

Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-08 Thread Gunnar Peterson
actually just the former. Robert Garigue characterized firewalls, nids, et al as good network hygiene. The equivalent of a dentist telling you to brush your teeth. An infosec pro needs much more depth than that. The model is charlemagne

Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-08 Thread Shea, Brian A
The right answer is both IMO. You need the thinkers, integrators, and operators to do it right. The term Security Professional at its basic level simply denotes someone who works to make things secure. You can't be secure with only application security any more than you can be secure with only

Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-08 Thread McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT)
Traditionally InfoSec folks defined themselves as being knowledgable in firewalls, policies, etc. Lately, many enterprises are starting to recognize the importance of security within the software development lifecycle where even some have acknowledged that software is a common problem space for

Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-08 Thread Michael Silk
On 3/9/07, McGovern, James F (HTSC, IT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Traditionally InfoSec folks defined themselves as being knowledgable in firewalls, policies, etc. Lately, many enterprises are starting to recognize the importance of security within the software development lifecycle where even

Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-08 Thread Gunnar Peterson
What Garigue was trying to say is that deploying a firewall on a network is not security's mandate; it is _part of_ running a network. Basic hygiene. Brushing your teeth is part of having teeth. Deploying anti-virus on a windows desktop is not security; it is _part of_ operating a desktop. This is

Re: [SC-L] What defines an InfoSec Professional?

2007-03-08 Thread Steven M. Christey
On Thu, 8 Mar 2007, Greg Beeley wrote: Perhaps one of the issues here is that if you are in operations work (network security, etc.), there are more aspects of the CISSP that are relevant to your daily work. In software development, there is usually just the one - app development sec - that

Re: [SC-L] Disclosure: vulnerability pimps? or super heroes?

2007-03-07 Thread Steven M. Christey
Based on my general impressions in day-to-day operations for CVE (around 150 new vulns a week on average), maybe 40-60% of disclosures happen without any apparent attempt at vendor coordination, another 10-20% with a communication breakdown (including they didn't answer in 2 days), and the rest

[SC-L] IEEE Workshop: Web 2.0 Security Privacy

2007-03-07 Thread Larry Koved
This is a workshop that may be of interest to subscribers of this mailing list. http://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2007/cfp-W2SP.html Workshop Call for Position Papers W2SP 2007: Web 2.0 Security and Privacy 2007 Sponsored by the

Re: [SC-L] Disclosure: vulnerability pimps? or super heroes?

2007-03-06 Thread Kenneth Van Wyk
On Mar 5, 2007, at 9:30 PM, Gary McGraw wrote: I think some vendors have come around to the economics argument. In every case, those vendors with extreme reputation exposure have attempted to move past penetrate and patch. Microsoft, for one, is trying hard, but (to use my broken leg

[SC-L] Economics of Software Vulnerabilities

2007-03-06 Thread Ed Reed
For a long time I thought that software product liability would eventually be forced onto developers in response to their long-term failure to take responsibility for their shoddy code. I was mistaken. The pool of producers (i.e., the software industry) is probably too small for such blunt

Re: [SC-L] Disclosure: vulnerability pimps? or super heroes?

2007-03-06 Thread Blue Boar
Kenneth Van Wyk wrote: So, I applaud the public disclosure model from the standpoint of consumer advocacy. But, I'm convinced that we need to find a process that better balances the needs of the consumer against the secure software engineering needs. Some patches can't reasonably be produced

Re: [SC-L] Disclosure: vulnerability pimps? or super heroes?

2007-03-05 Thread Steven M. Christey
On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, J. M. Seitz wrote: Always a great debate, I somewhat agree with Marcus, there are plenty of pimps out there looking for fame, and there are definitely a lot of them (us) that are working behind the scenes, taking the time to help the vendors and to stay somewhat out of

Re: [SC-L] Disclosure: vulnerability pimps? or super heroes?

2007-03-05 Thread Stuart Moore
Though I share Steve's sentiments on the anti-researcher bias, and I agree with Gary's yin-yang conclusion, I really hate the question itself. The disclosure question itself *presumes* that the current state of the industry (defective products) is economically efficient. The premise absolves

Re: [SC-L] [WEB SECURITY] Wordpress website hacked, wordpress backdoored

2007-03-03 Thread bugtraq
a) the final binaries were the ones infected (very easy to detect (imagine if the infected code was actually from 'real' SVN source code and made from a 'trusted' developer)) b) by the speed this was detected the exploit (and the blog page didn't give a lot of details about it) must have

Re: [SC-L] [WEB SECURITY] Wordpress website hacked, wordpress backdoored

2007-03-03 Thread Dinis Cruz
nice, the business model is evolving. But this is still a very 'inefficient' attack since: a) the final binaries were the ones infected (very easy to detect (imagine if the infected code was actually from 'real' SVN source code and made from a 'trusted' developer)) b) by the speed this was

[SC-L] new blog: Justice League

2007-03-01 Thread Gary McGraw
Hi sc-lers, Last week we started a blog at Cigital called Justice League that will be populated by regular postings from Cigital Principals (John Steven, Craig Miller, Sammy Migues, Scott Matsumoto, and Pravir Chandra) http://www.cigital.com/justiceleague/ Our blog is positioned as an ecclectic

[SC-L] Dark Reading - Desktop Security - Here Comes the (Web) Fuzz - Security News Analysis

2007-02-27 Thread Kenneth Van Wyk
Here's an interesting article from Dark Reading about web fuzzers. Web fuzzing seems to be gaining some traction these days as a popular means of testing web apps and web services. http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp? doc_id=118162f_src=darkreading_section_296 Any good/bad

Re: [SC-L] Dark Reading - Desktop Security - Here Comes the (Web) Fuzz - Security News Analysis

2007-02-27 Thread Kenneth Van Wyk
On Feb 27, 2007, at 3:33 AM, Steven M. Christey wrote: Given the complex manipulations that can work in XSS attacks (see RSnake's cheat sheet) as well as directory traversal, combined with the sheer number of potential inputs in web applications, multipied by all the variations in encodings, I

Re: [SC-L] Dark Reading - Desktop Security - Here Comes the (Web)Fuzz - Security News Analysis

2007-02-27 Thread Gary McGraw
Just for the record, the testing literature (non-security) supports ken's point of view. Possibly the most amusing thing about all of this discussion about black box versus white box is that this is only one of many many divisions in testing. Others include partition testing, fault injection,

Re: [SC-L] Dark Reading - Desktop Security - Here Comes the (Web) Fuzz - Security News Analysis

2007-02-27 Thread Michael Silk
On 2/27/07, Kenneth Van Wyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's an interesting article from Dark Reading about web fuzzers. Web fuzzing seems to be gaining some traction these days as a popular means of testing web apps and web services.

Re: [SC-L] Dark Reading - Desktop Security - Here Comes the (Web) Fuzz - Security News Analysis

2007-02-27 Thread Kenneth Van Wyk
On Feb 27, 2007, at 4:54 AM, Michael Silk wrote: unconvinced of what? what fuzzing is useful? or that it's the best security testing method ever? or you remain unconvinced that fuzzing in web apps is fuzzing in os apps? fuzzing has obvious advantages. that's all anyone should care about. No,

Re: [SC-L] Dark Reading - Desktop Security - Here Comes the (Web) Fuzz- Security News Analysis

2007-02-27 Thread J. M. Seitz
In my personal experience with web app testing, I have found that web fuzzers are not nearly as useful as fuzzers used for applications, and more specifically I have found numerous bugs doing direct API fuzzing. In the case of testing web applications I find that using something like SpiDynamics

[SC-L] Disclosure: vulnerability pimps? or super heroes?

2007-02-27 Thread Gary McGraw
Hi all, The neverending debate over disclosure continued at RSA this year with a panel featuring Chris Wysopl and others rehashing old ground. There are points on both sides, with radicals on one side (say marcus ranum) calling the disclosure people vulnerability pimps and radicals on the other

Re: [SC-L] Disclosure: vulnerability pimps? or super heroes?

2007-02-27 Thread Blue Boar
J. M. Seitz wrote: On a related note, does anyone have an example where Company A was disclosing vulnerabilities about competing Company B's product and got into trouble over it? Is this something that could be litigated? In fact, Tom Ptacek found a hole in one of Marcus' products while

Re: [SC-L] Disclosure: vulnerability pimps? or super heroes?

2007-02-27 Thread Michael Silk
On 2/28/07, Gary McGraw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, The neverending debate over disclosure continued at RSA this year with a panel featuring Chris Wysopl and others rehashing old ground. There are points on both sides, with radicals on one side (say marcus ranum) calling the disclosure

[SC-L] New release: OWASP TESTING GUIDE 2007

2007-02-24 Thread Matteo Meucci
ANNOUNCING THE OWASP TESTING GUIDE The OWASP Testing Guide includes a best practice penetration testing framework which users can implement in their own organizations and a low level penetration testing guide that describes techniques for testing most common web application and web service

[SC-L] The seven sins of programmers | Free Software Magazine

2007-02-23 Thread Kenneth Van Wyk
SC-L, So my trusty rss aggregator (NewsFire) found an interesting blog for me this morning, and I thought I'd share it here. The blog is from Free Software Magazine and it's titled, The seven sins of programmers. On the surface, it has nothing whatsoever to do with software security --

Re: [SC-L] The seven sins of programmers | Free Software Magazine

2007-02-23 Thread Gunnar Peterson
Along these same lines, I submit ³the Four Coders of the Apocalypse² by Dave Thomas and Andy Hunt. One of the major areas we need to work is adoption. Programmers are not all created equal, this presentation shows four types of programmers, and describes what drives them and ideas on dealing with

Re: [SC-L] Anyone here attending the 6th Semi-Annual Software AssuranceForum

2007-02-22 Thread Goertzel, Karen
I'll be there, and presenting. I'd be interested in a BoF (but not a BOF). -- Karen Mercedes Goertzel, CISSP Booz Allen Hamilton 703.902.6981 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenneth Van Wyk Sent: Thursday,

[SC-L] Silver Bullet 11: Dorothy Denning

2007-02-15 Thread Gary McGraw
Hi sc-lers, We've all been involved in the controversies surrounding disclosure, whether talking to malicious hackers is a good or bad idea, and whether security technology can be evil. One of the first people to ponder these things was Dorothy Denning. I'm pleased to have interviewed Dorothy

Re: [SC-L] differences between Threat Analysis and Threat Modeling

2007-02-14 Thread scott hollatz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Ken, I am currently researching the differences between Threat Analysis and Threat Modeling. I thought your readers on the mailing list may give me a clearer distinction. How I understand it is that *both* identify security threats,

Re: [SC-L] differences between Threat Analysis and Threat Modeling

2007-02-14 Thread Benjamin Tomhave
Jason, I differentiate between the two like this: Threat Analysis looks at specific threats (e.g., msblaster, zotob, latest exploit of pick your fav sw/os). Threat Modeling looks at classes of threats (e.g., network-distributed malware, OS vulnerabilities of Type). Threat analysis is used as

[SC-L] NDSS: Network and Distributed Systems Security

2007-02-13 Thread Crispin Cowan
This is the call for participation for the annual Network and Distributed System Security conference, starting in two weeks February 28th to March 2nd in San Diego http://www.isoc.org/isoc/conferences/ndss/07/ NDSS is a traditional scholarly academic security conference with a peer reviewed track

[SC-L] Show #21 - The One With Cruz Control ...

2007-02-12 Thread Dinis Cruz
(posted with permission from the moderator) Hi, last week I did an audio interview with David from Uk's Next Generation User Group (http://www.nxtgenug.net) about OWASP and my work as a security consultant. You can listen to the Podcast here: http://www.nxtgenug.net/Podcasts.aspx?PodcastID=21

[SC-L] OWASP Appsec Europe 2007: deadline for refereed papers extended!

2007-02-10 Thread Frank Piessens
[Forwarded from webappsec list...KRvW] Final Call For Papers Refereed Papers Track at OWASP AppSec Europe 2007 Conference Date: 16-17 May 2007 Location: Milan, Italy http://www.owasp.org/index.php/6th_OWASP_AppSec_Conference_-_Italy_2007 The Open Web Application Security Project (OWASP,

[SC-L] Anotated Bibliography from Software Security (take 2)

2007-02-02 Thread Gary McGraw
Ken rejected my first attempt at pass by value, so here's pass by reference instead! See the email below for an explanation. http://www.swsec.com/book/annotated-biblio-from-SS.pdf -Original Message- From: Gary McGraw Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:56 AM Hi all, I got to thinking

[SC-L] Meeting at RSA next week?

2007-02-02 Thread KT
How many of the list members are going to RSA? Any plans to get together for some coffee? ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available

Re: [SC-L] Meeting at RSA next week?

2007-02-02 Thread bugtraq
I'll be there. - Robert http://www.cgisecurity.com/ http://www.webappsec.org/ How many of the list members are going to RSA? Any plans to get together for some coffee? ___ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List

Re: [SC-L] Meeting at RSA next week?

2007-02-02 Thread Gary McGraw
I'll be there. I have two panels. Come to the ieee sp reception after the rootkits panel. gem company www.cigital.com podcast www.cigital.com/silverbullet book www.swsec.com -Original Message- From: KT [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Fri Feb 02 20:04:40 2007 To: Secure

Re: [SC-L] Dr. Dobb's | The Truth About Software Security | January 20, 2007

2007-01-30 Thread Michael S Hines
One examining only source code will miss any errors or problems that may be introduced by the compiler or linker. As Symantec says - working with the object code is working at the level the attackers work. Of course one would have to verify the object code made public is the same object code

[SC-L] Good Magazines and Books

2007-01-30 Thread KT
List, What are some of the magazines the users of this list subscribe to? Any great technical software security / Information securoty books lately? I have been busy lately and havn't been able to keep up. The last good book I read was writing secure code 2 Thanks in advaance!!

Re: [SC-L] Dark Reading - Discovery and management - Security Startups Make Debut - Security News Analysis

2007-01-28 Thread ljknews
At 5:20 PM +1100 1/25/07, Crispin Cowan wrote: ljknews wrote: My guess is that if a company actually is capable of analyzing binary code they only do it for the highest volume instruction sets. They certainly will focus on larger markets first. If you want them to focus on *your* market,

Re: [SC-L] WEB2.0 Security Issues

2007-01-28 Thread Benjamin Tomhave
Avi, This is an excellent question, which I've been mulling over the past few weeks... after taking a few days, here are my thoughts and concerns with Web 2.0... - Web 2.0 vs. Privacy Security Permalink:

Re: [SC-L] Vulnerability tallies surged in 2006 | The Register

2007-01-24 Thread Dinis Cruz
You also are not taking into account the number of vulnerabilities that are discovered by security consultants under NDA which are never published. I have lost the count on the number of vulnerabilities (at the time zero-days) that I have discovered in commercial software and where never

Re: [SC-L] Vulnerability tallies surged in 2006 | The Register

2007-01-23 Thread Wall, Kevin
Benjamin Tomhave wrote... This is completely unsurprising. Apparently nobody told the agile dev community that they still need to follow all the secure coding practices preached at the traditional dev folks for eons. XSS, redirects, and SQL injection attacks are not revolutionary, are not

Re: [SC-L] Adapting Penetration Testing for Software Development Purposes

2007-01-23 Thread Chris Wysopal
Ken, I enjoyed reading your this article. My book The Art of Software Security Testing is based on the concept of using penetration techniques as part of the development lifecycle and is specifically targetted at QA professionals. One of my co-authors Elfriede Dustin has written 5 QA books

[SC-L] Vulnerability tallies surged in 2006 | The Register

2007-01-22 Thread Kenneth Van Wyk
FYI, CERT/CC reported 8064 software vulnerabilities in 2006, for a 35% increase over 2005. See http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/21/2006_vulns_tally/ The article further states, The greatest factor in the skyrocketing number of vulnerabilities is that certain types of flaws in community

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