ty.
From: ss <cybers...@gmail.com>
To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2011, 21:18
Subject: Re: [silk] Subramanian Swamy
On Sunday 14 Aug 2011 7:28:04 am Indrajit Gupta wrote:
> This is a post with which I find myself in considerable
On Sunday 14 Aug 2011 7:28:04 am Indrajit Gupta wrote:
> This is a post with which I find myself in considerable sympathy and
> agreement.
>
> >We are on the verge of immersing ourselves in an annual display of a
> > religious festival which is entirely private, in the sense of being
> > non-st
On 14 August 2011 02:58, Indrajit Gupta wrote:
>
> Whether the state needs to oppose expression of religion with contempt or
> not is not clear, but the point is well made that the state needs to get to
> a situation of ignoring religion as rapidly as possible, and to thrust it
> away actively fr
23:11
Subject: Re: [silk] Subramanian Swamy
>Secularism in my view has to be anti religion beyond a point, for it work
>>effectively.
>
>>shiv
>
There can only be one law. Secularism cannot be about "respecting" religion but
has to be about ignoring it, unless r
From: Usman Sadozai
To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
Sent: Saturday, 13 August 2011, 23:11
Subject: Re: [silk] Subramanian Swamy
>Secularism in my view has to be anti religion beyond a point, for it work
>>effectively.
>
>>shiv
>
Ther
*confines of a private home (but not of private/non-state property, except
with the state's considered permission
>Secularism in my view has to be anti religion beyond a point, for it work
> >effectively.
>
> >shiv
>
There can only be one law. Secularism cannot be about "respecting" religion
but has to be about ignoring it, unless religion gives secularism a reason
to oppose it (i.e be anti-religion, with co
On Saturday 13 Aug 2011 12:15:57 am Heather Madrone wrote:
> Secularism
> needs to make a place at the table for religion, but it needs to be its
> proper place, and balanced by basic human rights and the rights of
> minorities. Where religious views work to enforce human rights and the
> right
On 8/9/11 6:24 AM August 9, 2011, Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote:
Basically, there is no way to merge the two i.e. for secularism to be
implemented to its true meaning requires the majority of society to
relegate religion to their "personal" space. Obviously some religions
make this easier than othe
On 11 August 2011 03:09, Charles Haynes wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 3:36 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
> wrote:
> > On 10 August 2011 03:52, Charles Haynes
> wrote:
>
> >> Religionists are welcome to teach their children whatever they please.
>
> > This breaks the idea of a secular society.
>
>
> > Individual opinions on non-religious matters are frequently as dogmatic as
> > their religious views. There is little about a religious view that is
> > materially different than the other views most people hold in practice. The
> > problem is not religious views per se. Most secular opinions
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 3:36 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
wrote:
> On 10 August 2011 03:52, Charles Haynes wrote:
>> Religionists are welcome to teach their children whatever they please.
> This breaks the idea of a secular society.
How if it is is in addition to whatever standards are mandated by
On 10 August 2011 23:51, J. Andrew Rogers wrote:
> Individual opinions on non-religious matters are frequently as dogmatic as
> their religious views. There is little about a religious view that is
> materially different than the other views most people hold in practice. The
> problem is not relig
On Aug 10, 2011, at 10:36 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote:
>
> You cannot equate religious views to an individual's opinions since the
> latter is arrived at from some form of evidence analyzed and interpreted by
> the individual, whereas the other is dogma handed down and forced upon the
> indi
On 10 August 2011 03:52, Charles Haynes wrote:
> Religionists are welcome to teach their children whatever they please.
>
This breaks the idea of a secular society. Appeasement of every religion is
not the same as ignoring its existence.
I also fundamentally disagree that the government needs t
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 06:42:27AM +0530, ss wrote:
>> That takes me on to another question. How secular is communism?
> Communism is per se orthogonal to religion, but for hysterical
> raisins (materialism) all instances of 'communism' (tota
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 06:42:27AM +0530, ss wrote:
> That takes me on to another question. How secular is communism?
Communism is per se orthogonal to religion, but for hysterical
raisins (materialism) all instances of 'communism' (totalitarian
socialism, really) have had a strong atheistic fla
On Wednesday 10 Aug 2011 10:27:14 am Udhay Shankar N wrote:
> "Assume goodwill" also implies "in the absence of
> evidence to the contrary".
>
Udhay while I acept the importance of judgement, the real contradcition
arises in the actual discussion of such an article. If someone happens to
agree
On 10-Aug-11 10:16 AM, ss wrote:
> There is another contradiction in that article that has an interesting, if
> roundabout connection with Silk list. That is the question of "assuming
> goodwill". It would be difficult for anyone reading that article to assume
> that
> there is much goodwill i
On Wednesday 10 Aug 2011 8:33:29 am Arjun Guha wrote:
> I find this thread to be a thought-provoking one in which secularism and
> the freedom to practice multiple religions within a secular democracy have
> been discussed. Not clear what its relationship is to Swamy's article. Can
> secularism wi
Swamy's article is about how to wipe out Islamic terrorism. The approach
that he is advocating, one of fighting fire with fire, is not novel though
I have never seen it articulated in these many words. The article has
undoubtedly touched a raw nerve.
I find this thread to be a thought-provoking
On Tuesday 09 Aug 2011 6:54:23 pm Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote:
> Basically, there is no way to merge the two i.e. for secularism to be
> implemented to its true meaning requires the majority of society to
> relegate religion to their "personal" space. Obviously some religions make
> this easier tha
On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 4:17 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
wrote:
> On 9 August 2011 19:12, Charles Haynes wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
>> wrote:
>> > Therefore, if religion is not considered while framing laws, these
>> > laws impinge on one's religious beliefs.
Charles,
> > ? It's important to realize that Israel is not structured to
> > ? be a government of its citizens but rather of its nationals
> > ? (i.e.: ?its people who also Jews). ?The 20% of its citizenry/people
> > ? who aren't Jewish are an officially disenfranchised
>
> A quibble, I bel
On 9 August 2011 19:12, Charles Haynes wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
> wrote:
>
> > Therefore, if religion is not considered while framing laws, these
> > laws impinge on one's religious beliefs.
>
> Not if the law is broad in what it allows, and narrow in what it
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
wrote:
> Therefore, if religion is not considered while framing laws, these
> laws impinge on one's religious beliefs.
Not if the law is broad in what it allows, and narrow in what it
compels or forbids.
> Basically, there is no way to merge
On 9 August 2011 18:19, Charles Haynes wrote:
> Indeed it is. Secularism is a problem for anyone who wants government
> assistance in imposing their religious views on the unwilling.
>
This is an over simplification of the fact that most religions extend well
beyond one's personal space. This cou
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 11:02 AM, ss wrote:
> [Secularism] is [a problem for] the political
> aspirations of people who ... consider [religion] to be a force that should
> govern society.
Indeed it is. Secularism is a problem for anyone who wants government
assistance in imposing their religious
And why is that a bad thing?
--Original Message--
From: ss
Sender: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net
To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
ReplyTo: silklist@lists.hserus.net
Subject: Re: [silk] Subramanian Swamy
Sent: Aug 9, 2011 06:32
On Monday 08 Aug 2011 5:04:43 pm Charles
On Monday 08 Aug 2011 5:04:43 pm Charles Haynes wrote:
> Certainly there are people (generally religious) who make that claim.
> Usually by claiming that secularism prevents them from practising
> their religion (in the way that they would like.) However,
> classically, secularism has instead simp
On Aug 9, 2011 8:20 AM, "Radhika, Y." wrote:
>
> Kratos in modern greek is translated as the state, not as strength or
force.
A little more on Democracy, secularism, and religion. The ancient Greeks,
often cited as the original democracy were quite religious and not at all
secular.
Democracy is
Kratos in modern greek is translated as the state, not as strength or force.
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Charles Haynes wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Jon Cox wrote:
> > It's important to realize that Israel is not structured to
> > be a government of its citizens but rather of
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Jon Cox wrote:
> It's important to realize that Israel is not structured to
> be a government of its citizens but rather of its nationals
> (i.e.: its people who also Jews). The 20% of its citizenry/people
> who aren't Jewish are an officially disenfranchi
Charles,
> > Thanks for the information about Turkey. I was looking for an education
> > when I
> > said "As far as i know" and you have used that as a generalization about all
> > Indians making assumptions :D . I will let it pass.
>
> "The question of secularism does not arise at all in an
On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:18 PM, ss wrote:
> Thanks for the information about Turkey. I was looking for an education when I
> said "As far as i know" and you have used that as a generalization about all
> Indians making assumptions :D . I will let it pass.
"The question of secularism does not ar
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:54 PM, ss wrote:
> The only "tool" that a democracy can have to hold religion at bay is
> secularism. Secularism is an exclusionary clause. Secularism is fundamentally
> anti-religion. Technically one would have to ignore and suppress religious
> tenets to be secular.
>
On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 7:24 PM, ss wrote:
> Now democracy too is a system to run a state. The difference of course is that
> laws in a democracy are ultimately derived from the people as opposed to being
> handed down by God as in the religions.
Religions too are at least initially derived from t
On Sunday 07 Aug 2011 2:24:51 am Jon Cox wrote:
> * Charles Haynes (hay...@edgeplay.org) [110805 16:36]:
> > On Aug 6, 2011 2:51 AM, "Heather Madrone" wrote:
> > > On 8/4/11 7:18 PM August 4, 2011, ss wrote:
> > >> What is a "secular democracy"? How would a non secular democracy work?
> >
> > Does
* Charles Haynes (hay...@edgeplay.org) [110805 16:36]:
> On Aug 6, 2011 2:51 AM, "Heather Madrone" wrote:
> >
> > On 8/4/11 7:18 PM August 4, 2011, ss wrote:
> >>
> >> What is a "secular democracy"? How would a non secular democracy work?
> Does anyone have any examples of a non secular democrac
Hi,
This discussion has derailed into some sort of farce. I hope it ends like
some Yes Men prank and we all laugh in the end, a little wiser. But somehow
that doesn't seem to be the case.
Can we end this thread? Or something?
Sruthi
On Friday 05 Aug 2011 8:43:03 pm you wrote:
> You cannot just post emails sent to you without permission to public lists.
> One is intended to be private, and the other is supposed to be public. The
> whole point was to avoid getting into a public spat.
>
Nonsense I will do whatever I want with
On Aug 6, 2011 2:51 AM, "Heather Madrone" wrote:
>
> On 8/4/11 7:18 PM August 4, 2011, ss wrote:
>>
>> What is a "secular democracy"? How would a non secular democracy work?
Does anyone have any examples of a non secular democracy?
>
>
> Israel.
Actually there are a fair number of democracies wit
On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Bonobashi wrote:
> That is ridiculous. Switzerland is Catholic in significant parts, but was
> also the home of Zwingli and one of the original bases of Calvinism. Neither
> the Roman Catholic Church nor Protestant denominations dominate the country;
> while it i
That is ridiculous. Switzerland is Catholic in significant parts, but was also
the home of Zwingli and one of the original bases of Calvinism. Neither the
Roman Catholic Church nor Protestant denominations dominate the country; while
it is Christian, it is not ruled by any specific type of Chris
On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Heather Madrone wrote:
> On 8/4/11 7:18 PM August 4, 2011, ss wrote:
>>
>> What is a "secular democracy"? How would a non secular democracy work?
>> Does anyone have any examples of a non secular democracy?
>
> Israel.
Switzerland is Catholic on paper, but of cours
Admin note: I am extremely unimpressed at this attempt to direct
silklist discussion through backchannel means.
Anand: I think you owe me and the list an explanation for what is going
on here. Until I am satisfied that no violation of list rules is
happening here, I am placing your address on mode
On 8/4/11 7:18 PM August 4, 2011, ss wrote:
What is a "secular democracy"? How would a non secular democracy work?
Does anyone have any examples of a non secular democracy?
Israel.
--
Heather Madrone (heat...@madrone.com)
http://www.sunsplinter.blogspot.com
Work like you don't need the mone
I am also a victim. Alas!
Regards,
Nikhil Mehra
Advocate, Supreme Court of India
Tel: (+91) 9810776904
Res: C-I/10, AIIMS Campus,
Ansari Nagar (East)
New Delhi - 110029.
-- Forwarded message --
From: Gayathri R
Date: Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: India beat Pakistan
On Friday 05 Aug 2011 8:05:08 pm Ingrid wrote:
> A partial answer to the difference between European and Indian approaches
> to, and definitions of, secularism, may lie in the fact that the earliest
> struggles for liberty/freedom/rights in Europe were against the dominance
> of the church. Much e
On Friday 05 Aug 2011 7:59:49 pm Ramakrishnan Sundaram wrote:
> Thaths:
>
> Surely a Manikutti Chechi would chime or tinkle, not strike?
>
> Sockpuppets would thud, I presume.
>
> Ram
>
"Vat baals is this chalapathy?" is the question that comes to mind
shiv
On 5 August 2011 04:18, ss wrote:
>
>
> What is a "secular democracy"? How would a non secular democracy work? Does
> anyone have any examples of a non secular democracy?
>
> Democracy and secularism go very easily together if the country has an
> overwhelming majority of one single religion. As t
-To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
Cc: Gayathri R
Subject: Re: [silk] Subramanian Swamy
On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 7:11 AM, ss wrote:
> Dear Gayatri
>
> I don't know who you are. I don't know if you are a member of Silk List. I
> prefer to continue silk list discussions on the list an
On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 7:11 AM, ss wrote:
> Dear Gayatri
>
> I don't know who you are. I don't know if you are a member of Silk List. I
> prefer to continue silk list discussions on the list and do not encourage any
> off list discussions unless they are private, personal issues. I am therefore
>
Dear Gayatri
I don't know who you are. I don't know if you are a member of Silk List. I
prefer to continue silk list discussions on the list and do not encourage any
off list discussions unless they are private, personal issues. I am therefore
going to forward this reply to silk list as well fo
On 08/05/2011 07:48 AM, ss wrote:
On Thursday 04 Aug 2011 7:41:18 pm Charles Haynes wrote:
Yet it is a predominantly Hindu country that writhes and struggles with an
internal debate on secularism. If democracy is the will of the majority, then
pluralism should be the rule in india, not secular
On Thursday 04 Aug 2011 7:41:18 pm Charles Haynes wrote:
> > But as far as i know - it is only in India here there are big debates
> > where the members of the majority religion are debating with each other
> > as to whether they are secular enough or not.
>
> One of the things I found frustrating
On 8/3/11 8:50 PM August 3, 2011, ss wrote:
I find something fake and contrived about Indians talking secularism. I am
reminded of an event held in schools called a "mock UN" in which teams of
schoolchildren purport to represent various nations. The same Indian kids are
seen making impassioned sp
On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Charles Haynes wrote:
> As far as I can tell, all secular democracies struggle with how to deal with
> religion and government.
India's secularism is a fortunate accident. I credit the small band of
intellectuals who had fortunate control of the steering wheel duri
>
> But this whole "secularism" debate is an oddly Indian phenomenon - and I
> would
> be curious to find out how many nations with a significant minority
> religion
> spend a great deal of effort in which the members of the majority religion
> squabble among themselves about the need to be secular
On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Ingrid wrote:
> To pick a bone, Italy has no jurisdiction over the Vatican.
Hehe, specifically planted there to lure the pedants. The Vatican bank
wouldn't get away with the money laundering if the Roman banks stopped
being so helpful. In effect Vatican survives on
On 4 August 2011 15:03, Srini RamaKrishnan wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 5:50 AM, ss wrote:
> >
> > But as far as i know - it is only in India here there are big debates
> where
> > the members of the majority religion are debating with each other as to
> > whether they are secular enough or n
On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 5:50 AM, ss wrote:
>
> But as far as i know - it is only in India here there are big debates where
> the members of the majority religion are debating with each other as to
> whether they are secular enough or not.
I think this is an admirable quality.Would the Italian cour
I enjoyed this bit:
"We need a collective mindset as Hindus to stand against the Islamic
terrorist. The Muslims of India can join us if they genuinely feel for
the Hindu. That they do I will not believe unless they acknowledge
with pride that though they may be Muslims, their ancestors wer
On 30-Jul-11, at 9:12 PM, Anand Manikutty wrote:
[snip]
Thoughts/opinions on the article welcome.
The spell-checking is competent.
-Taj.
ss [04/08/11 09:20 +0530]:
In India, when a man with a Hindu name like Subramanyam Swamy writes a rabid
article attacking the holy cow of Indian secularism, the counter arguments in
India must come from other Hindus. Counter arguments from non Hindus don't cut
it in India because there is an assu
I find something fake and contrived about Indians talking secularism. I am
reminded of an event held in schools called a "mock UN" in which teams of
schoolchildren purport to represent various nations. The same Indian kids are
seen making impassioned speeches on behalf of Congo, China or Russia.
On Aug 3, 2011 7:37 PM, "Salil Tripathi" wrote:
>
> Here's what I had written about it. There are some entertaining responses,
too.
>
> http://www.livemint.com/articles/2011/07/20214319/The-right-to-write.html
I see that you are still living under the pleasant misapprehension that the
fundamental
On Wednesday 03 Aug 2011 9:08:41 pm Madhu Menon wrote:
> On 02-08-2011 17:07, ss wrote:
> > I had once written an article about just how Islam has been misused in
> > Pakistan. The article is still online. Will not bother posting the link
> > here.
>
> Yes, but you completely evaded the question o
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Anand Manikutty
wrote:
> There was an article by Subramanian Swamy in DNA India that has run into
> some controversy :
>
>
> http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/analysis_how-to-wipe-out-islamic-terror_1566203-all
>
> Thoughts/opinions on the article welcome.
>
He's a
On 02-08-2011 17:07, ss wrote:
I had once written an article about just how Islam has been misused in
Pakistan. The article is still online. Will not bother posting the link here.
Yes, but you completely evaded the question of what you thought of the
article. ;)
--
Madhu Menon
http://twitter
Here's what I had written about it. There are some entertaining responses,
too.
http://www.livemint.com/articles/2011/07/20214319/The-right-to-write.html
Salil
On Saturday 30 Jul 2011 9:12:21 pm Anand Manikutty wrote:
> There was an article by Subramanian Swamy in DNA India that has run into
> some controversy :
>
> http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/analysis_how-to-wipe-out-islamic-terror_15
> 66203-all
>
> Thoughts/opinions on the article welcome.
>
>
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 9:12 PM, Anand Manikutty
wrote:
> There was an article by Subramanian Swamy in DNA India that has run into
> some controversy :
>
>
> http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/analysis_how-to-wipe-out-islamic-terror_1566203-all
>
> Thoughts/opinions on the article welcome.
>
Obscen
There was an article by Subramanian Swamy in DNA India that has run into some
controversy :
http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/analysis_how-to-wipe-out-islamic-terror_1566203-all
Thoughts/opinions on the article welcome.
Anand
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