Several years ago I did a large indoor playground (4000+ sqft). They had some
larger pieces of equipment both wood and plastic. There were a couple of spaces
that were actually storage rooms. The rooms got sprinklers. A lot of the
unenclosed spaces didn’t because they were places kid
com)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Craig Hanson mailto:cra...@wc-3.com)>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2024 12:48 PM
> > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire s
+1 for Tim Stone. Too often the contractor or their estimator are asked to
figure out design criteria. That should fall upon the FPE.
Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-608-4559
>
> On Oct 24, 2024 a
n FPE and in accordance with IFC 104.7.2 and NFPA 13: 4.2(2022). The AHJ
> should have requested that information also. These are tricky operations as
> dissimilar metals create a deflagration issue. the design may also be outside
> the scope of the NFPA 13 due to the process involved. Their insurance
> compa
Does anyone have experience with Duramax ceiling panels? Per their specs,
they are 100% pvc but have a flame spread rating of 10. Is that reasonable? It
would put them in the category of Limited Combustible. Trying to figure
protection requirements
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Prot
nager| Bamford Fire Sprinkler Co., Inc.
> P: 913.432.6688
> F: 913.432.5294
> M: 785.766.4894
> A: 5134 Merriam Dr.Shawnee Mission KS66203
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I have been asked to design a 6” draft hydrant taking suction from a brackish
river. I have the items in NFPA 24 section 5.8 addressed, but it does not
mention materials. The contractor wants to use regular PVC but I need to
confirm that something special is not required. Any though
>
> From:Ben Hill
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2024 11:45 AM
> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers
>
> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: [External]Re: main drain test
>
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Has there even been a generally accepted correlation of a main drain test to
a hydrant flow test? (Except static pressure).
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054
Tom, good to hear you are still out there.
There are a lot of variables (like how long they do each flow, etc) that will
impact how much water is saved or used. I don’t think there is enough
consistency to make it viable. You would have to pick a time of flow and meter
the
I’ve done a bunch of these. If the flat area meets the criteria for concealed
space sprinklers, use them. In the sloped areas, I try to use single direction
attic sprinklers if possible.
The one thing this detail doesn’t show is where the insulation is located in
the sloped r
So Ron, this sounds like they have to remove sheet rock ceilings and ductwork
before the inspector show up.
Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-608-4559
>
> On Aug 14, 2024 at 2:51 PM, mailto:rongree
What Steve said. I did a large project with a foam mattress manufacturer a
while back. We pretty much dismissed the flammability standards argument right
away. it may slow it down a little but it’s still a foamed plastic.
Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Co
If they did a calculation on the existing system with the 1/2” sprinklers and
achieved that density, I do not believe they have to upgrade anything. I think
the 0.2 restriction is for new or upgraded systems only.
The other consideration is that the placard could be total BS
Far am I to challenge Mr Layton on a standpipe question. However, my first
reaction was why not. Pumps and underground are shared between buildings, why
not between a building and a marina? Connected to a 1000 gpm pump, it would
most likely end up automatic wet instead of manual dry.
One of the things that I see, living in an area with 80+ year old systems, is
that the newer inspectors are asking for calc signs on pipe schedule systems.
Hydraulically calculatingpipe schedule system can be a disaster. They are 2
separate and individual system designs. A system
As far as access, attic access could be allowed unless prohibited by Building
Code or other restriction (ie zoning approval).
However, since it is accessible for living space or storage, it would need to
be appropriately protected. Even then, it could be considered 4 stories inst
Would the same apply to platforms in churches if they are doing any sort of
production?
Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-608-4559
>
> On Jul 22, 2024 at 1:11 PM, (mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com)>
to partner once we explain what we need and why we
> need it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Steve Leyton
>
>
>
> (Sent from my smartphone; please excuse typos and voice-to-text corruptions.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
&
“Articulate owner’s certificate”? LMFAO
Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-608-4559
>
> On Jul 19, 2024 at 7:52 PM, (mailto:st...@protectiondesign.com)> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Is it ju
> think it’s the building owner’s responsibility to solve the City’s issue.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cliff Whitfield, SET
> >
> >
> >
> > President
> >
> >
> >
> >
; Todd-
>
>
>
> Yes, it’s a manual wet standpipe. Problem is the city supply has dropped a
> fair amount and now the standpipe test won’t pass.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Brian Har
Isn’t this a 4 story building? Below the high rise threshold, I assume. Can it
be a manual wet standpipe?
Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-608-4559
>
> On Jul 1, 2024 at 9:09 AM, m
Isn’t this a 4 story building? Below the high rise threshold, I assume. Can it
be a manual wet standpipe?
Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-608-4559
>
> On Jul 1, 2024 at 9:09 AM, mailto:pkim...@as
t; wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a rated wall or walls installed between sections and use room design
> method?
>
>
>
> Ed K
>
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>
> From: Fpdcdesign
> Sent: Mo
I am working on a building with a unique facad where I am trying to figure
out the calcs. Each end of the building has a 24x24 “tower” where the roof
slope on 4 sides to a peak. The center of the building over the entry has a
24x17 inverted V sloped roof. Connecting each of these is
I am working on a system with extended coverage sidewall sprinklers,
allegedly protecting an LH occupancy. The space is a high ceiling area where
the elevation distance between the high and low ceilings is 22”. The low
ceiling is protected by pendants.
4” below the center
Spencer Tomlinson, PE
>
>
>
> Owner, Fire Protection Engineer
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cell: 620-955-7293
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Fpdcdesign
> Sent: Monday, May 13, 2024 9:32 AM
> To: Discussion list on
m (http://www.mepcad.com/) | m: 480.547.9348
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> AutoSPRINK|AutoSPRINK FAB|AutoSPRINK RVT|AlarmCAD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Book appointment time in my calendar
>
>
>
> https://calendly.com/t
royo Grande Blvd. #105 I Henderson, NV 89074
>
>
>
> www.mepcad.com (http://www.mepcad.com/) | m: 480.547.9348| Whatspp:
> +14805479348
>
>
>
> Email: t.m...@mepcad.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> AutoSPRINK|AutoSPRINK FA
I know that NFPA 420 is coming but I believe has not been issued yet. I have
been asked to look at a new growing facility. NFPA 13 calls out agriculture
facilities os OH2, which make sense for this occupancy. My question comes from
the tables. The tables are portable so sprinklers are
nting out the obvious fact
> that I missed about the static pressure.
>
>
>
>
> Thank you,
> Bob Knight, CET III
> Fire by Knight, LLC
> 208-318-3057
>
> On 5/6/2024 3:18 PM, Fpdcdesign wrote:
>
> >
> > There is n
There is no friction loss at 0 gpm. The static at the riser will be your churn
pressure plus the elevation gain.
In my opinion, you should include the mains as you describe them as part of
the calculation.
Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stoning
Steve, a quick search found a couple of different MSDS. The older ones showed
as you said but some newer ones called it a IIIB flammable liquid. I would
suggest contact the supplier and get the latest MSDS.
Todd Williams
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Sto
Yes, Todd.Back in the Boston District Office, some 40-plus years ago.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Dwight Havens
>
> Pre-planning Engineer
>
> Round Lake Fire Department
>
>
>
> Still volunteering, now in Malta, NY.
>
&g
13R buildings are not considered to be fully sprinklered.
>
> On Apr 3, 2024 at 9:45 AM, mailto:shawn.f...@gmail.com)> wrote:
>
>
>
> Why would you do 1250 if it’s a fully sprinklered building?
>
>
>
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Dwight,
That is pretty much what I have said. I am proposing adding a hose valve in a
common area and submit to the AHJ to add this arrangement in their fire
planning.
From a practical standpoint, the FD would fight a firein the main occupied
areas from the hydrant acros
Design Manager
>
>
>
> Fire FoeCorp.
>
>
>
> 999 Trumbull Ave.
>
>
>
> Girard, OH 44420
>
>
>
> P: 330-759-9834 x112
>
>
>
> F: 330-759-8949
>
>
>
> E: t...@firefoe.com (mailto:t...@fi
I am working on a re-design of a system where I need to include a provision
for doing a forward flow test for the backflow preventer (4”). Due to space
issues, I would like to do a by-pass around the check valve to the FDC. Is
there a problem with this due to the clappers in the
I am working on a small 4 story building where we are required to install a
standpipe (as well as a full 13 sprinkler system). The first floor consists of
a conference area, office space and various mechanical and storage rooms. The
conference space and office area have direct access
I am working on a project which is a retail store being renovated for a new
tenant. The previous retail tenant had been in the space for at least 20 years.
The existing sprinklers below the ceiling (to remain) are spaced at 10 ft in
one direction and alternate 10 ft and 14 ft (10-14
I have a client with a rather large (330 gallon) antifreeze system that is
looking to upgrade to an approved solution. There are approximately 100 pendent
sprinklers on either straight drops or swing joints. The contractor has
proposed pulling a few drops and using a Dropmaster to try
I think this is another part of the evolution. I can see a time where all you
get is access to a Revit-NWD hybrid file through something like Procore.
Everything is on the drawing and you have to do your design simultaneously with
everyone else with real time clash detection. Nothing
leep with
> > thirteen EC sprinklers in this area.
> >
> >
> > AJ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Virus-free.www.avg.com
> > (http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=
.
>
> On Mar 8, 2024 at 3:41 PM, mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com)>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I'm thinking this may be one of those occasions where that PE after your name
> may need to be summoned, Todd.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Ma
Light Hazard. Waiting room
>
> On Mar 8, 2024 at 2:18 PM, mailto:rick26...@gmail.com)>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> What’s the occupancy of the space?
>
> Rick Matsuda
>
>
>
> &
I am working on a project that has a 40 ft diameter circular ceiling at an
elevation of 10 ft that is surrounded by an 8 ft ceiling. The existing
protection to the high areis provided by 18 extended coverage sidewall
sprinklers around the perimeter. They are renovating the space and
y services as a consultant to help them get out of the
> situation.Like you, I passed and am not sure how it resolved.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Steve L.
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Fpdcdesign
> Sent: Tuesday, March 05
I was in an apartment building yesterday and the apartment on the 3rd floor
had been rented and was being used as an office. I believe the system design is
NFPA 13R (not sure but it looks like it). My guess this is under the radar of
the local authorities. Has anyone else run into this
s an option under specially listed
> pipe, NFPA 13- section: 6.3.6.1, and NFPA 13R-section: 5.2.2.2.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hope this helps!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Eric Rieve, SET
>
>
>
> Rieve Fire P
Was polybutylene pipe ever listed for NFPA 13 or 13R systems? I looked at a
system with PB pipe this morning but have no other information on the system
(placard only had the static water pressure).
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-53
Steve and Ken made very knowledgeable and professional posts, as they always
do. However, now it is my turn.
If you are required to pull multiple permits for the same installation, this
should be written somewhere, along with an explanation of who is to do what.
This should
stairway extends to the roof, then a hose valve is required at the top
> landing or on the roof.
>
>
>
>
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> If there is no roof access from the stairway, then no hose valve is required.
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>
As I keep trying to beat into people’s brains, Codes are a minimum. If the
project is not design-build, then you need to look to see if there is a spec
that asks for more. This phenomenon is not restricted to the west coast.
>
> On Feb 21, 2024 at 9:0
Why can’t you use a K16.8 CMSA instead of an ESFR? Controls mode design might
be a little more friendly than extinguishing mode.
>
> On Feb 8, 2024 at 12:42 PM, (mailto:k...@parsleyconsulting.com)> wrote:
>
>
> I'm a bit late to this discuss
Steel or CPVC?
>
> On Feb 5, 2024 at 4:56 PM, mailto:bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com)>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Is there anywhere in code that says sprinkler pipe is not allowed in a space
> above a ceiling being used as a return air plenum? I
I would think you would need to do both, at least initially. Individually to
find out that each pump is working correctly itself and both to verify that the
full demand can be met.
For a future testing program, probably something specialized would be needed.
Make sure it is
It is worth noting that the EOR (assumed in this case to be the specifying
engineer) can request things that are beyond what the Code requires. Codes are
a minimum, not an absolute.
That being said, you should be able to get the “permit review comments”. Not
sure who did th
What is the floor structure about the joists? Wood or metal? What is the
spacing of the joists?
I have been told that the definition of “limited combustible” is purposely
vague. I can’t define it but I know what it is when I see it. Top and bottom
wood members every 16” would
Ditto to Greg. A couple of years ago I saw a pump and backflow under a stair.
Usually on the ground floor out of the way or any travel path.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (te
These are the type oof questions I don’t like to answer on the Forum. Too
much you don’t know. This is the type of thing the Owner should have an FPE
review and have them develop a design spec. Not a design build project.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consu
If I recall, I believe Sch 7 pipe became popular for use in Press-Fit
systems. And I think that was galvanized, nit black. Outside of that I haven’t
seen a situation where it gives you any significant advantage over sch 10.
However, if it is listed for fire service, it is would be a
Brian, what I have seen is a chart with the location of the low points
mounted near the riser. Also bright orange tags on the drain valves themselves
to make them a little easier to spot. Best you can do it say that they exist
and here is where they are.
I’
Brian, what I have seen is a chart with the location of the low points
mounted near the riser. Also bright orange tags on the drain valves themselves
to make them a little easier to spot. Best you can do it say that they exist
and here is where they are.
I’m not sure what
duct needs to be protected.
>
>
>
> 7. Air monitoring is required.
>
>
>
> 8. All filters need to be changed regularly and disposed properly.
>
>
>
> 9. Numerous other requirements.
>
>
>
>
&
I am working on a project where a company acquired a used paint spray booth
that they are adapting to their operation. It is a little unique in that the
air intake is through the floor and the exhaust is through the ceiling. The
previous dry chemical system has been removed and the
Charlie, typically you only have to replace the sprinkler(s) that have been
painted. Any local contractor could take a look at the existing sprinkler and
find a current replacement. Some residential sprinklers and sizes have been
discontinued but there are some allowances in the reside
What size are the equipment platforms? You might also need to look at 4.5.2.2
and 4.5.2.3.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:
I have seen all varieties but some of it may be dictated by the EOR. They have
their own ideas about flex drops. One engineer specified that they be replaced
with hard pipe if moved from the original location.
>
> On Dec 18, 2023 at 8:51 AM, mailto:jamie.se...@gm
It sounds to me like the definition of “unused attic” is purposely vague (and
note it is in the Appendix and not main Standard). The main definition of Light
Hazard is “spaces of low quantity and combustibility of contents”. That is
the question you need to answer. Does the presen
I did one of these a while back. There is no good information in the
Standards about this (unless there is something new). The problem is this could
end up as a deep seated fire and the only real way to extinguish it is to pull
all of the stuff out, look for hot spots and hit them w
I am working on an existing gridded system that was converted from wet to
anti-freeze several years ago. The system protects a Light Hazard occupancy and
and has a volume around 375 gallons. We are in the process of trying to replace
the existing glycerine mixture with a listed soluti
rsleyconsulting.com%2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1)
>
> On 10/9/2023 10:49 AM, Fpdcdesign wrote:
>
> >
> > Is there a check valve on the floor control assem
Is there a check valve on the floor control assembly?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
>
> On Oct 9,
gt;
>
>
> 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina29606
>
>
>
> CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Fpdcdesign
> Sent: Saturday, October 7
>
>
> Fire Protection Sprinkler Design
>
>
>
> and Consulting Services
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452
>
>
>
> CELL: (802) 373-0638
>
>
>
>
I have a system with a 6” backflow preventer, which reduces to 4” immediately
after. There is approximately 48” of 4” pipe to the suction flange on a 4 x 3
pump. All elbows are turning correctly. Is this sufficient? Does the 10x rule
apply to the size of the backflow preventer or th
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 1:52 PM Fpdcdesign (mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com)> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Who was the other?
> >
> >
> >
> > Todd G Williams, PE
> > Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> &g
Who was the other?
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080) (ofc)
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559) (cell)
>
> On Oct 6, 2023 at 1:48 PM,
There is a name I haven’t heard in a few years. Sorry to hear he passed.
>
> On Oct 6, 2023 at 1:41 PM, mailto:tduro...@comcast.net)> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> To those fortunate enough to know this man, I’m sorry to announce his passing
>
I am working on a project in a wood frame building where they have ceilings
at varying heights. In the high ceiling areas (about 50% of the space), there
is 5” between the ceiling and the bottom of the joists. These do not require
sprinklers per 9.1.2.5. In the low ceiling areas, th
One of the problem is that insulation installers are not consistent. Some may
stop at the joists, others may just let it flow. It is almost impossible to
properly install sprinks until after the insulation is in, but then it is
difficult to hang the pipe.
On one job I was w
Without any further info, it sounds like exposed.
>
> On Sep 20, 2023 at 8:03 PM, (mailto:danielbobadil...@gmail.com)> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hello Guys, hoping you're good.
>
>
>
> I need to protect electronic voter identification machin
Those of you who use the metric system, do you typically use mm/min or
L/min/m**2 to describe density? I realize they are the same but am interested
in how it is expressed.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)
No OH3 in 1991
>
> On Sep 11, 2023 at 3:01 PM, mailto:cl...@fire-design.com)> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Steve,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It was still in there in the 89 edition.I think it changed in 91 but I
> can’t lay my hands on mine.
A lot of good responses. Another consideration might be if you would be
required to do a drain test from this connection. That would be under pressure
and a higher volume that a straight drain. It might need to be considered in
the roof drain design.
>
> On Aug 2
Unfortunately the only signs available are the ones for sprinklers from the
1980s. I have done some custom stuff for specific applications. Maybe that
should be my retirement business
>
> On Aug 9, 2023 at 9:12 AM, mailto:da...@bamfordfire.com)> wro
Tim, Craig pretty much nailed it. This is not a sprinkler issue. The HVAC
crowd needs to solve this. My concern is why is this a wet system to begin
with? Somewhere there is a chiller that is pumping out air a lot colder then 40
degrees to maintain that temperature; probably at roof
sources of ignition present.
>
>
>
> scratching my head to understand this one,
>
>
>
>
> Ken Wagoner, SET
> Parsley Consulting
> 500 West Mechanic Street
> Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
> Phone: (760) 745-6181
&g
Mechanic Street
> Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
> Phone: (760) 745-6181
>Visit the website
> (https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZ
;
> Ken Wagoner, SET
> Parsley Consulting
> 500 West Mechanic Street
> Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
> Phone: (760) 745-6181
>Visit the website
> (https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE
I am working on a wood framed residential building, with some steel columns,
that has a full 13 system (Type V-B construction). The steel columns are 4”
diameter and are enclosed in wood framing leaving an interior space of roughly
12” x 10”. The Building Inspector is asking for spr
I looked in my 1991 handbook and there was no restriction on distance between
sprinklers for roof pitch
>
> On Jul 20, 2023 at 3:37 PM, mailto:bobby.we...@koorsen.com)>
> wrote:
>
>
>
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> Hope this helps,
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> Eric Rieve
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> Rieve Fire Protection
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> From: Fpdcdesign
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2023 12:37 PM
> To: Sprinklerforum
> Subje
I am working on a pump house that has a 1500 gpm pump with an 8” suction line
(no reducer). There is an elbow in the suction line parallel to the pump shaft
with a piece of pipe that is 38” from the suction flange and there is a problem
with the test. We have to add
Pretty good supply if you can flow 1800 gpm at a good pressure without a pump.
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> On Jul 12, 2023 at 4:37 PM, mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com)>
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> Providing an array of 2.5” hose valves as a test header for testing
I see these all the time.
1. There is a section in 13 about water supplies for pipe schedule systems.
That won’t give you something for a placard but it would tell you if there is
sufficient water for it.
2. Placards are only required for hydraulically calculated
This is my first time doing a powder coating operation. This is a continuous
batch system where the product is suspended from a chain system that transports
it through the process. As part of the process, it is run through a 400 degree
F (max) curing oven, which is about 20’ x 30’.
Also be concerned about any sprinklers in the space that may have insulation
on them.
Side story. I designed a project a few years ago where the insulation guy
buried a row of attic sprinklers under 2+ feet of expanded foam. He was
supposed to install 8” but got a little ov
Ken, you are way too eloquent. My thought was a hydraulic alarm actuation
system.
I recently did a project at a facility with rack storage of Li batteries. I had
to go through all of the data and research to try and figure where to start.
Given what I learned, even a proper
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