"Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>My wife is studying for a master in Sustainable Agriculture, I'm a little
>selective in what I read on the subject and so we often argue about such
>matters.
>I tutor OS students in critical reading (many are trained to believe
>everything that
-Original Message-
From: F. Marc de Piolenc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 6 June 2001 11:15 PM
To: Biofuel List
Subject: [biofuel] "We don't need no..."
"Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Dr. Nering made no claims or stipula
Increases in grain production by breeding, irrigation and fertiliser have
got us ahead in capacity versus demand for the time being. Further increases
are subject to diminished return on research dollars, in addition the funds
for such research, more dams, better rural roads and other regional
inf
By costed I meant included in the price.
Because infrastructure is paid for by taxes, all business are subsidised to
some extent, agriculture is probably the most subsidised ( no judgment). The
brit figures are an excellent example.
My wife is studying for a master in Sustainable Agriculture, I'm
> No matter how you slice and dice it, 5% growth IS a simple exponential,
> because that growth is at least implicitly compound (if linear, you have
> to specify a base). And assuming a continued simple exponential growth
> of ANYTHING is palpable nonsense. You can have a lot of fun
> demonstratin
"Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Dr. Nering made no claims or stipulations about population growth in
his
analogy. Rather, he used actual estimated increases in global energy
consumption. The 5% growth per annum which he "assumed" is a global
reality.
Whether the percentage remains, i
i dont know that i agree that there would be any more
of a feed meal glut than there is right now. all the
grain that is being produced in this country today is
being marketed to every conceivable use there
currently is and we still have an oversupply.
currently if commodity prices are high the gr
I concur, there is no shortage of suitable/available
land for growing oil producing crops. In many cases
crop production on these acres is less environmentally
destructive than letting them sit "idle". It will make
farmers much more independent to be able to produce
their own fuel and sell a surp
ldren.
--
- Original Message -
From: "F. Marc de Piolenc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Biofuel List"
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 8:02 AM
Subject: [biofuel] We don't need no stinking efficiency
>
> This article makes the Malthusian error of assuming that a quant
D]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: Food vs Biodiesel production was Re: [biofuel] We don't need no
stinking efficiency (?)
> Is there a chart somewheres showing the amount of meal left after
oil
> extraction for each crop like there is for oil per
j johnny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>i agree with keith, the american farmer and i suppose
>farmers all over the world have become so proficient
>at producing commodities that we cant get rid of them.
>why do you think the american farmers are crying about
>low prices so much, its because there i
"Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In Oz farming is on the nose and considered by some environmental groups as
>the industry that should be eliminated ASAP because of its impact.
>Environmental costs of farming are no more costed than those of any other
>industry.
It depends what
Harmon,
Don't let Club Sierra hear you say that. They apparently think that
agriculture should deal solely with food and not mix with energy issues.
Take the weight of each oilseed per bushel, subtract 94% of the oil weight
(cold pressing leaves ~ 6% of the oil in the feed meal), subtract any hu
Marc,
Dr. Nering made no claims or stipulations about population growth in his
analogy. Rather, he used actual estimated increases in global energy
consumption. The 5% growth per annum which he "assumed" is a global reality.
Whether the percentage remains, increases or decreases from 5% was not h
Is there a chart somewheres showing the amount of meal left after oil
extraction for each crop like there is for oil per pound or acre? And would it
neccesarily cause a glut -- perhaps with many crops the meal could be then used
for ethanol production?
Appal Energy wrote:
> Herein lies th
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 2:00 AM
Subject: [biofuel] We don't need no stinking efficiency (?)
> New York Times, OP-ED, June 4, 2001
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/04/opinion/04NERI.html
>
> The Mirage of a Growing Fuel Supply
> By EVAR D. NERING
>
> COTTSDA
From: Gary and Jos Kimlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] We don't need no stinking efficiency (?)
> Ken! Whether you dig it,grow it or catch it as sunlight. If there is an
> exponential increase in the rate of use of energy
You have removed calorific value of the farm product. At present (6
billion)we are capable of sufficient overproduction to wear that, but at 18
billion (2050?)we would not, try 50 billion people. The projections that
show population leveling off and then decreasing require that a minimum
global st
In Oz farming is on the nose and considered by some environmental groups as
the industry that should be eliminated ASAP because of its impact.
Environmental costs of farming are no more costed than those of any other
industry. If mineral fuel sources are replaced by renewable combustion then
the o
i agree with keith, the american farmer and i suppose
farmers all over the world have become so proficient
at producing commodities that we cant get rid of them.
why do you think the american farmers are crying about
low prices so much, its because there is more of the
stuff laying around than we
> >Ken! Whether you dig it,grow it or catch it as sunlight. If there is an
> >exponential increase in the rate of use of energy it would need to come
from
> >an infinite source at a potentially infinite rate, to be sustainable.
> >There is an absolute limit to Cultivatable land, one we reached at
When you start to grow it. The real cost of a sustainable energy source is
taken into account. If we continue to look for cheap, free crude oil which
costs only the exploration and development cost plus profit. This is not
sustainable. It does not reflect the real cost of the resource. Cost w
>Ken! Whether you dig it,grow it or catch it as sunlight. If there is an
>exponential increase in the rate of use of energy it would need to come from
>an infinite source at a potentially infinite rate, to be sustainable.
>There is an absolute limit to Cultivatable land, one we reached at least 3
Ken! Whether you dig it,grow it or catch it as sunlight. If there is an
exponential increase in the rate of use of energy it would need to come from
an infinite source at a potentially infinite rate, to be sustainable.
There is an absolute limit to Cultivatable land, one we reached at least 30
ye
We take the value of something on the short term basis of its supply and
demand. The value is relative and can change depending on how you look at
it. When everyone wants gas, price goes up. When we don't want it, it
goes down. We do not take into account the long term value of a resource.
Is
Mothers milk. No matter how you say it to decrease rate of increase and
ultimately the rate of usage, you need to make it more expensive in terms of
disposable income of the major user groups. This has the effect of making
fuel unavailable to the poor while increasing the flow on costs of most
(al
China
coming on stream. While I have never sat down and done the maths the
examples below show that I may not be too far off the mark.
B.r., David
- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 2:00 AM
Subject: [biofuel] We don't need
New York Times, OP-ED, June 4, 2001
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/04/opinion/04NERI.html
The Mirage of a Growing Fuel Supply
By EVAR D. NERING
COTTSDALE, Ariz. - When I discussed the exponential function in the
first-semester calculus classes that I taught, I invariably used consumption
of a no
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