[Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

Hi, i just saw a changeset of someone makeing a mini_roundabout from a junction=roundabout. I have never used mini_roundabout as non of the routing/nav engines i tried actually supported it when i did. Instead of making it some special type of roundabout with seperate tagging i'd vote for deprec

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

So, for those who like definitions: In the UK, a "mini roundabout" is simply a small roundabout that is either flush to the road or slightly raised so that large/long vehicles are able drive over it if they need to. If it has anything on it, like a lamp post, it is a "roundabout". It is not the siz

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019, Jez Nicholson wrote: > So, for those who like definitions: In the UK, a "mini roundabout" is > simply a small roundabout that is either flush to the road or slightly > raised so that large/long vehicles are able drive over it if they need to. > If it has anything on i

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 09:24:30AM +, Philip Barnes wrote: > On Wednesday, 23 October 2019, Jez Nicholson wrote: > > So, for those who like definitions: In the UK, a "mini roundabout" is > > simply a small roundabout that is either flush to the road or slightly > > raised so that large/long veh

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019, Florian Lohoff wrote: > On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 09:24:30AM +, Philip Barnes wrote: > > On Wednesday, 23 October 2019, Jez Nicholson wrote: > > > So, for those who like definitions: In the UK, a "mini roundabout" is > > > simply a small roundabout that is either

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

Le 23.10.19 à 11:35, Florian Lohoff a écrit : > You need to eliminate the node and replace it with a circular road a junction=roundabout is also allowed as a node https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/junction=roundabout so it's a bad rational to deprecate mini_roundabout

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

I would suggest it is not necessary to replace the simple node with a circular way. I think it is perfectly acceptable if it is considered as a simple turn instead of negotiating a roundabout, from a routing perspective. An instruction to turn right at the junction would not be improved by an in

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On 23.10.2019 11:35, Florian Lohoff wrote: These are a very common feature, it does seem odd that routers are not supporting them. The point is that a mini roundabout does need a LOT of preprocessing to put it into some graph for your classical A* or Dijkstra. You need to eliminate the node an

[Tagging] swimming=* access tag

I wonder whether it would be worth adding a swimming=* access tag to the wiki and the list under "Water-based transportation" section of the page for access=* (alongside boat=*/canoe=*)? This has been mentioned in the discussion section, but not further discussed

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 09:53:33AM +, marc marc wrote: > Le 23.10.19 à 11:35, Florian Lohoff a écrit : > > You need to eliminate the node and replace it with a circular road > > a junction=roundabout is also allowed as a node > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/junction=roundabout > so it

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:00:13PM +0200, Tom Pfeifer wrote: > On 23.10.2019 11:35, Florian Lohoff wrote: > > > These are a very common feature, it does seem odd that routers are not > > > supporting them. > > > > The point is that a mini roundabout does need a LOT of preprocessing to > > put it

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 11:55:04AM +0200, Colin Smale wrote: > I would suggest it is not necessary to replace the simple node with a > circular way. I think it is perfectly acceptable if it is considered > as a simple turn instead of negotiating a roundabout, from a routing > perspective. An instru

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

This does not seem te be a legal restriction. NB In Nederland, roundabouts and miniroundabouts are legally no different from any other junction. Signs govern the right of way / yield obligations. Without specific giveaway signs the rule is: give way to traffic coming from the right. This would mea

Re: [Tagging] swimming=* access tag

I'm actually quite surprised this didn't exist. In France there are also some lakes with holiday camps around where it's clearly stated if swimming is allowed or not. Sometimes, it might be only for specific portions of the lake though, how would that work? De :

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On 23/10/2019 11:14, Florian Lohoff wrote: > On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 11:55:04AM +0200, Colin Smale wrote: >> I would suggest it is not necessary to replace the simple node with a >> circular way. I think it is perfectly acceptable if it is considered >> as a simple turn instead of negotiating a rou

Re: [Tagging] swimming=* access tag

On 23/10/2019 11:15, MARLIN LUKE wrote: > I'm actually quite surprised this didn't exist. > > In France there are also some lakes with holiday camps around where it's > clearly stated if swimming is allowed or not. > Sometimes, it might be only for specific portions of the lake though, > how would

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 11:55:04AM +0200, Colin Smale wrote: > I would suggest it is not necessary to replace the simple node with a > circular way. I think it is perfectly acceptable if it is considered as a > simple turn instead of negotiating a roundabout, from a routing perspective. > An ins

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On 23.10.2019 12:05, Florian Lohoff wrote: On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:00:13PM +0200, Tom Pfeifer wrote: ..., it can give instructions like at a normal junction, just using the tag to describe the junction: "At the mini-roundabout [turn right|go straight|turn left]". You would expect (as you

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

Florian Lohoff wrote: > The point is that a mini roundabout does need a LOT of preprocessing > to put it into some graph for your classical A* or Dijkstra. You need > to eliminate the node and replace it with a circular road much like > a junction. What? No. No. You don't. I do precisely no pr

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

Hi Richard, On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 04:41:57AM -0700, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > You would expect (as you see a roundabout sign) to get instructions to > > take the n.th exit. > > What? No. No. You wouldn't. > > Mini-roundabouts are almost always at junctions with only three or four > exits

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

It is not just a British thing, I have encountered many when driving in France. The rules and usage are the same as in the UK. The other rule that makes them different to other roundabouts is that you should not use them to turn around, do U turns. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Sailfish d

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 13:35, Florian Lohoff wrote: > > The point is that people (as i have sent in the example) currently see > the only difference to be that a mini_roundabout can be traversed in the > center. No, they say that is ONE of the defining characteristics. They have also pointed y

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:42:27PM +, Philip Barnes wrote: > It is not just a British thing, I have encountered many when driving in > France. > The rules and usage are the same as in the UK. > The other rule that makes them different to other roundabouts is that you > should not use them to

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

Florian Lohoff wrote: > From the document you mention i have the feeling that that is a > British special. It is, pretty much. Plus a few in places heavily influenced by British practice (Ireland and Hong Kong), and also France as Philip says. The Wikipedia description actually puts it quite wel

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

23 Oct 2019, 14:54 by rich...@systemed.net: > Florian Lohoff wrote: > >> From the document you mention i have the feeling that that is a >> British special. >> > > It is, pretty much. Plus a few in places heavily influenced by British > practice (Ireland and Hong Kong), and also France as Phili

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019, Florian Lohoff wrote: > On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:42:27PM +, Philip Barnes wrote: > > It is not just a British thing, I have encountered many when driving in > > France. > > The rules and usage are the same as in the UK. > > The other rule that makes them dif

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 13:59, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > 23 Oct 2019, 14:54 by rich...@systemed.net: > > > It is, pretty much. Plus a few in places heavily influenced by British > practice (Ireland and Hong Kong), and also France as Philip says. > > And in Poland, though without special > legal

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

AFAIK the traffic regulations are: 1. You should *avoid* doing a U-turn at a mini roundabout because there isn't much room to turn in, and people might not be expecting it. You are still allowed to do so. 2. *only* drivers of long/large vehicles may only drive over it. Everyone else has to drive ro

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 14:35, Jez Nicholson wrote: > AFAIK the traffic regulations are: > 1. You should *avoid* doing a U-turn at a mini roundabout because there > isn't much room to turn in, and people might not be expecting it. You are > still allowed to do so. > 2. *only* drivers of long/large

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

Can you provide the legal basis for that? So far I have only found documentation saying there is no such legal restriction in the UK. Fr gr Peter Elderson Op wo 23 okt. 2019 om 15:10 schreef Philip Barnes : > > > On Wednesday, 23 October 2019, Florian Lohoff wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 1

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

> > Countries have their own legislation. Poland apparently has things that > look like mini roundabouts but follow the regulations of "ordinary" > roundabouts. Netherlands has many mini roundabouts AND they follow the regulations of ordinary roundabouts. However, those are the same as for other

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

Rule 188 of the Highway Code has: "Mini-roundabouts. Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts. All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so. Remember, there is less space to manoeuvre and less time to signal. Avoid m

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

Hi guys, Reading the lively discussion about mini-roundabouts and their local specifics, I am adding two pieces of information from Czechia: 1) As in Poland, a small version of roundabout exists in Czechia. Although the central island is flat, the drivers are obliged to drive around it, as the

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

No. Just because, once again, routing software fails & you don't use a certain tag it is not a reason to deprecate. The tail does not wag the dog in OSM. Contact the navigation software developers & tell them to write some decent code. DaveF On 23/10/2019 09:26, Florian Lohoff wrote: Hi,

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

23 Oct 2019, 18:25 by vojtech.fili...@gmail.com: > Hi guys, > Reading the lively discussion about mini-roundabouts and their local > specifics, I am adding two pieces of information from Czechia: > 1) As in Poland, a small version of roundabout exists in Czechia. Although > the central isla

[Tagging] 360 degrees / Re: Deprecating mini_roundabout

On 23.10.2019 15:08, Philip Barnes wrote: You can enter a normal roundabout, do 360 degrees and then be traveling in the opposite direction. And you recognise a fellow OSM mapper by seeing her/him doing 360 degrees plus the angle for the intended exit, to create the full circle in her/his GNSS

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 3:27 AM Florian Lohoff wrote: > i just saw a changeset of someone makeing a mini_roundabout > from a junction=roundabout. I have never used mini_roundabout > as non of the routing/nav engines i tried actually supported it > when i did. > Probably because a mini-roundabout

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 5:06 AM Florian Lohoff wrote: > On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:00:13PM +0200, Tom Pfeifer wrote: > > On 23.10.2019 11:35, Florian Lohoff wrote: > > > > These are a very common feature, it does seem odd that routers are > not supporting them. > > > > > > The point is that a min

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 5:31 AM Robert Skedgell wrote: > On 23/10/2019 11:14, Florian Lohoff wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 11:55:04AM +0200, Colin Smale wrote: > >> I would suggest it is not necessary to replace the simple node with a > >> circular way. I think it is perfectly acceptable if

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 7:54 AM Florian Lohoff wrote: > On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:42:27PM +, Philip Barnes wrote: > > It is not just a British thing, I have encountered many when driving in > France. > > The rules and usage are the same as in the UK. > > The other rule that makes them differ

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 22:10, Paul Johnson wrote: > > Meanwhile the osmcha example appears to be a 5 way roundabout-type > junction, but I don't have the clarity in that aerial view to tell if it's > traversable or not. > I went to the osmcha example and opened it in iD with Bing imagery. It lo

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On 23/10/19 21:44, ael wrote: On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 11:55:04AM +0200, Colin Smale wrote: I would suggest it is not necessary to replace the simple node with a circular way. I think it is perfectly acceptable if it is considered as a simple turn instead of negotiating a roundabout, from a rou

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 4:31 PM Paul Allen wrote: > On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 22:10, Paul Johnson wrote: > >> >> Meanwhile the osmcha example appears to be a 5 way roundabout-type >> junction, but I don't have the clarity in that aerial view to tell if it's >> traversable or not. >> > > I went to t

Re: [Tagging] swimming=* access tag

A big +1 from me, I've been mapping with swimming=* to indicate access on waterways and bodies of water for a while, and agree it should be documented on the access page. swimming=designated where the area is explicitly marked or signposted for swimming (possibily in conjunction with leisure=swimm

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

Hi, On 23.10.19 14:54, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > I think the best suggestion in this case would be to update the > documentation, particularly in translated pages, clarifying that the tag is > intended for the formal mini-roundabout design as found in the UK, Ireland, > France etc., and not for a

Re: [Tagging] Deprecating mini_roundabout

sent from a phone > On 24. Oct 2019, at 08:24, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > > Which if taken at face value would make any roundabout, however big and > however many roads join there, a "mini roundabout" if the centre is > traversable. +1, this is how I see it making sense, without having to cha