Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

From: Clifford Snow Jack - can you live with Martin's point?   Actually, I'm very flexible with just about anything. My only goal in bringing this up was to clean up the wiki page so that mappers have clear guidance. The way the wiki was written seemed confusing. After I brought up the subject I le

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 11:31, Paul Allen wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 02:10, Mike Thompson wrote: > >> I don't think anyone is saying that tracks can't have additional uses, >> just that one of those uses has to be forestry, agriculture (and maybe >> mineral extraction/energy). >> > > They HA

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 02:10, Mike Thompson wrote: > I don't think anyone is saying that tracks can't have additional uses, > just that one of those uses has to be forestry, agriculture (and maybe > mineral extraction/energy). > They HAVE to have one of those uses? Really? No exceptions. Back

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 5:53 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > here in Oz, "tracks" are almost always unpaved (grass or dirt / rock surface) & I think that is true in the US as well, but not everything that is wide enough, and otherwise suited, for a 2-track vehicle and is unpaved is a highway=tr

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

I agree that in countries with large areas of lightly-developed land, like Australia, Canada, USA, there may be highway=track features which were never used for agriculture or forestry, but were originally designed for 4x4 or off-road recreational vehicles. These might be called "jeep tracks" or "4

Re: [Tagging] Features underwater (inside reservoirs)

On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 00:36, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 10/6/20 11:12 pm, Paul Allen wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 02:13, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 9/6/20 9:30 pm, Paul Allen wrote: >> >> From those, it appears that the condition is free-form text except for

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 05:47, Tod Fitch wrote: > > “Greenway” [1] was a term unknown to me too > I only found out when I looked at the link you provided that we have "foreshoreways", & one most prominently mentioned is only about 2k from where I live! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenway_(lan

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 13:40, Tod Fitch wrote: > My hope would be that addition of more highway=* values that better match > what people are trying to map would be a short term pain (data consumers need > to add one more check) but long term benefit. > > For example, as mappers discover they can

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

> On Jun 10, 2020, at 12:19 PM, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging > wrote: > > Jun 10, 2020, 19:40 by t...@fitchfamily.org : > > >> On Jun 10, 2020, at 12:31 AM, Volker Schmidt > > wrote: >> >> Two points to get this thread back on track: >

Re: [Tagging] Features underwater (inside reservoirs)

On 10/6/20 11:12 pm, Paul Allen wrote: On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 02:13, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com > wrote: On 9/6/20 9:30 pm, Paul Allen wrote: From those, it appears that the condition is free-form text except for cases like opening hours. O

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

Jun 11, 2020, 01:10 by ja...@piorkowski.ca: > On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 14:27, Clifford Snow wrote: > >> To help me understand, below are three schemes for crossings. Which one(s) >> best describe your suggested way of mapping. >> >> ... >> 2. With no crossing ways, just a node on the highway to

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 14:27, Clifford Snow wrote: > To help me understand, below are three schemes for crossings. Which one(s) > best describe your suggested way of mapping. > > ... > 2. With no crossing ways, just a node on the highway to mark the type of > crossing https://mycloud.snowandsnow

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

Às 19:29 de 10/06/2020, Graeme Fitzpatrick escreveu: On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 06:30, Clifford Snow mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us>> wrote: Sorry - I should have been clearer on #3. The red dot is a validation warning that the two ways intersect, but it isn't marked as a crossing

Re: [Tagging] Features underwater (inside reservoirs)

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 23:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > Would seasonal=drought work? > > I know a drought isn't strictly a season, but it is a climate condition > that happens regularly. > seasonal=drought;maintenance_work H, I think not. :) More to the point, persuading routers to ch

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 06:30, Clifford Snow wrote: > > > Sorry - I should have been clearer on #3. The red dot is a validation > warning that the two ways intersect, but it isn't marked as a crossing. > (Not having a go at you, Clifford, just using your comment as an example! :-)) "Recently" (2

Re: [Tagging] Features underwater (inside reservoirs)

On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 04:24, Cornelis wrote: > > • The bridge does not fall dry every autumn but* only in hot years with > little rain*, thus in the concrete situation seasonal seems not the best > tag from my point of view. Intermittent is more strictly bound to water, so > that won't apply eit

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

Jack - can you live with Martin's point? On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 2:36 PM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > > > On 10. Jun 2020, at 23:28, Clifford Snow > wrote: > > > > I would suggest that the one feature per element page needs to include a > couple of exceptions to the rule

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

> On Jun 10, 2020, at 12:31 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote: > > Two points to get this thread back on track: > > 1) The highway=track tag has always been wider than agriculture and forestry. > There is an often overlooked "etc." in the description on the wiki, and it > has been there from the very

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

sent from a phone > On 10. Jun 2020, at 23:28, Clifford Snow wrote: > > I would suggest that the one feature per element page needs to include a > couple of exceptions to the rule. the rule is mostly pointless, because it depends what you define as a feature. In the crossing example there

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

sent from a phone > On 10. Jun 2020, at 18:56, Mike Thompson wrote: > > Also, the land manager (e.g. parks and recreation department) has access to > almost all of their properties via motor vehicle. > > Does this only apply to unpaved ways? General motorized traffic is typically exclude

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:55 PM Jack Armstrong wrote: > > From: Clifford Snow > > If we were to follow your logic, then every level crossing at the > intersection of railways and highways should not be tagged as a > level_crossing because of the rule "one feature, one OSM element." > > > Well, ag

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

Jun 10, 2020, 23:17 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > > > sent from a phone > > >> On 10. Jun 2020, at 18:19, Clifford Snow wrote: >> >> Before changing the wiki, I'd like a clearer understanding of your proposed >> change. >> > > > this sentence was only introduced recently, it is not backed by h

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

sent from a phone > On 10. Jun 2020, at 18:19, Clifford Snow wrote: > > Before changing the wiki, I'd like a clearer understanding of your proposed > change. this sentence was only introduced recently, it is not backed by history, current usage or the people in this thread here. Just remov

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

sent from a phone > On 10. Jun 2020, at 20:28, Clifford Snow wrote: > > 1. Tagging both the crossing and a node on the highway. > https://mycloud.snowandsnow.us/index.php/s/YEFoYcTgR2gtW3j > 2. With no crossing ways, just a node on the highway to mark the type of > crossing https://mycloud.s

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

From: Clifford Snow If we were to follow your logic, then every level crossing at the intersection of railways and highways should not be tagged as a level_crossing because of the rule "one feature, one OSM element."  Well, again, my personal preferences are not germane to this thread. I'm not shy

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

Às 17:16 de 10/06/2020, Jack Armstrong escreveu: From: Clifford Snow To help me understand, below are three schemes for crossings. Which one(s) best describe your suggested way of mapping. 1. Tagging both the crossing and a node on the highway. https://mycloud.snowandsnow.

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:16 PM Jack Armstrong wrote: > From: Clifford Snow > To help me understand, below are three schemes for crossings. Which one(s) > best describe your suggested way of mapping. > > 1. Tagging both the crossing and a node on the highway. > https://mycloud.snowandsnow.us/inde

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

From: Clifford Snow To help me understand, below are three schemes for crossings. Which one(s) best describe your suggested way of mapping.1. Tagging both the crossing and a node on the highway. https://mycloud.snowandsnow.us/index.php/s/YEFoYcTgR2gtW3j2. With no crossing ways, just a node on the h

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

FWIW, as the originating party for the “sidewalk as separate way” proposal, we have actually been mapping and tagging both the pedestrian crossing line geometry as well as the intersecting node geometry with the crossing demarcation. Moreover, we highly recommend using the tag Crossing= exclus

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 20:21, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > > and highway=greenway seems to not be a real improvement and its meaning is > utterly unclear for me > It may be referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_lane_(road) or maybe not. Since "gre

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

Jun 10, 2020, 19:40 by t...@fitchfamily.org: > > > >> On Jun 10, 2020, at 12:31 AM, Volker Schmidt <>> vosc...@gmail.com>> > wrote: >> >> Two points to get this thread back on track: >> >> 1) The highway=track tag has always been wider than agriculture and >> forestry. There is an often overlo

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

Jun 10, 2020, 19:59 by jacknst...@sprynet.com: > > To be added to the wiki (from the approved proposal): > > > > > > When a highway=crossing node is present on the main road, a way connecting > the sidewalks on the two sides of the road should be mapped. This way should > be tagged as follows

Re: [Tagging] Features underwater (inside reservoirs)

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 19:24, Cornelis wrote: > > • According to the wiki it is not only in use with water(ish) tags. Some > examples are listed and ice_rink is one of them. > Has physics changed that much since I was at school? Ice is no longer a form of water? Must be all that quantum mechan

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

Jun 10, 2020, 20:26 by cliff...@snowandsnow.us: > To help me understand, below are three schemes for crossings. Which one(s) > best describe your suggested way of mapping. > > 1. Tagging both the crossing and a node on the highway. > > https://mycloud.snowandsnow.us/index.php/s/YEFoYcTgR2gtW3j >

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

>A track does have a different function, it can handle a 2 track vehicle, a >path can't. If there's something even remotely like that in the wiki, help or elsewhere, it needs to be reverted to what it has been from the beginning. all we can say is: A track can't be so narrow it can't handle a t

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

I mean physically. If a vehicle can't use it legally, the access key must be activated, like in any other feature. I believe that the legality of circulation shouldn't interfere with the tagging of a track. For example: a dirt highway in a Natural Reserve should be always a track, regardless of wh

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 10:59 AM Jack Armstrong wrote: > > From: Clifford Snow > > > Before changing the wiki, I'd like a clearer understanding of your > proposed change. As I read this the node is placed on the highway to tell > cars that some type of crossing is located at this node. The crossi

Re: [Tagging] Features underwater (inside reservoirs)

I agree with you, Paul and would like to add two thoughts regarding the use of seasonal: • According to the wiki it is not only in use with water(ish) tags. Some examples are listed and ice_rink is one of them. In this wiki entry seasonal is listed as possible tag, too. So seasonal could apply he

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

> From: Clifford Snow> Before changing the wiki, I'd like a clearer understanding of your proposed change. As I read this the node is placed on the highway to tell cars that some type of crossing is located at this node. The crossing way tells the pedestrian that there is some type of crossing.  Wi

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 10:26 AM António Madeira wrote: > If a motor vehicle can and uses the way, it's a track. When you say "can use" do you mean both legally and physically, or only physically?. If legally, do you mean just the general public? As someone pointed out, law enforcement has access

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 17:45, Jack Armstrong wrote: > To map a pedestrian crossing, place a node within the way representing > the road, and set this highway=crossing tag on the node… > footway=crossing and cycleway=crossing are sometimes used on ways which > lead from a sidewalk to the crossing

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

Às 06:03 de 10/06/2020, Martin Koppenhoefer escreveu: sent from a phone On 10. Jun 2020, at 02:31, Kevin Kenny wrote: In terms of function, 'track' and 'service' (with or without 'driveway') are practically interchangeable - at least in terms of what they provide to the road network. They'

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 8:44 AM Jack Armstrong wrote: > Thank you, Andrew, > > According to the "Sidewalk as a separate way" proposal, which was approved > in 2011, > > When a highway=crossing node is present on the main road, a way connecting > the sidewalks on the two sides of the road should b

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

I agree that the wiki should be consistent on the use of these two ways of mapping a highway crossing. Personally, I always use highway=crossing on nodes and only footway=crossing when I can connect the point to a pedestrian feature for routing purposes. Às 12:44 de 10/06/2020, Jack Armstrong e

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

Thank you, Andrew,According to the "Sidewalk as a separate way" proposal, which was approved in 2011, When a highway=crossing node is present on the main road, a way connecting the sidewalks on the two sides of the road should be mapped. Not to override the well-established meaning of highway=cross

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:03 PM Jack Armstrong wrote: > Users have been adding pedestrian crossing tags on ways in addition to the > street connecting nodes. In effect, a single pedestrian crossing is tagged > twice. To me, this would seem contrary not only to the OSM wiki page, > “Tag:highway=cro

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - 3rd and 4th rail (Paul Allen)

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 15:36, Garry Keenor wrote: > @Paul Allen - thank you for your comment. I agree with you, and so I've > softened the guidance around use of electrified=yes. > Thanks. I often forget this myself, but we should strive to permit step-wise refinement - allow something to be ma

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - 3rd and 4th rail (Paul Allen)

@Paul Allen - thank you for your comment. I agree with you, and so I've softened the guidance around use of electrified=yes. A mapper with general railway experience would be able to determine the type with aerial imagery of a reasonable resolution - especially 3rd and 4th rail systems which are qu

Re: [Tagging] Features underwater (inside reservoirs)

On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 at 02:13, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 9/6/20 9:30 pm, Paul Allen wrote: > > From those, it appears that the condition is free-form text except for > cases > like opening hours. > > Opening_hours provides for free form text. > I expressed my point unclearly. It ap

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

Am Mi., 10. Juni 2020 um 14:09 Uhr schrieb Kevin Kenny < kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com>: > As far as I know, all routers need the node if they're going to, for > instance, present a warning to an approaching motorist or cyclist that > the crossing is impending. But some attributes of the crossing (most

Re: [Tagging] Do we map pedestrian crossings twice?

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 1:54 AM Andrew Davidson wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:04 PM Jack Armstrong > wrote: >> >> I’ve been told by a user, anecdotally, there’s a Slack group that decided >> this is correct. To my knowledge Slack groups do not supersede the OSM wiki. >> I assume mappin

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

sent from a phone > On 10. Jun 2020, at 02:31, Kevin Kenny wrote: > > In terms of function, 'track' and 'service' (with or without > 'driveway') are practically interchangeable - at least in terms of > what they provide to the road network. They're both distinguished by > the fact that they do

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

sent from a phone > On 10. Jun 2020, at 01:07, Mike Thompson wrote: > > I asked this same question about a trail in a nearby park (Natural Area) a > couple of weeks ago on this list and received a largely different answer from > the one I am receiving today. Perhaps it is just that differe

Re: [Tagging] Help explain the difference between path and track

Two points to get this thread back on track: 1) The highway=track tag has always been wider than agriculture and forestry. There is an often overlooked "etc." in the description on the wiki, and it has been there from the very first version of 26 May 2008. (see also Duck_tagging