Re: [Talk-us] dubious church node

[John F. Eldredge]

On 9/29/2017 9:59 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

On 9/29/2017 8:31 PM, Max Erickson wrote:

Yeah, a Google search for "Mill Creek Church nashville" has

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nashvillearchives/millcreek.html 



as an early result. It says the church building has been dismantled
but mentions a cemetery, which still exists nearby the mislocated osm
node:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/53498031#map=16/36.1182/-86.7267


Max

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That sounds like a reference to the original Mill Creek Baptist Church 
(there is a current-day church by that name, but it isn't descended 
from the earlier church). I am the person who mapped the Mill Creek 
Baptist Church Graveyard, and am a board member in a nonprofit 
organization, Friends of Mill Creek Baptist Church Graveyard, Inc., 
that maintains the graveyard. The Mill Creek Baptist Church was 
located within the graveyard property, a couple of miles away from 
where this node in question is located. It might possibly have been a 
different church of some other denomination.  Before removing it, I 
will post a question to a Facebook group that discusses local history, 
and see if anyone can tell me if there was ever a church there.



I have now learned more on a local-history Facebook group.  The location 
on Antioch Pike is the original location of the Mill Creek Baptist 
Church congregation that now meets on Wallace Road, about two miles 
away.  This congregation is not descended from the original Mill Creek 
Baptist Church, which was about two miles away in a different direction.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out 
hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [Talk-us] dubious church node

[John F. Eldredge]

On 9/29/2017 8:31 PM, Max Erickson wrote:

Yeah, a Google search for "Mill Creek Church nashville" has

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nashvillearchives/millcreek.html

as an early result. It says the church building has been dismantled
but mentions a cemetery, which still exists nearby the mislocated osm
node:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/53498031#map=16/36.1182/-86.7267


Max

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That sounds like a reference to the original Mill Creek Baptist Church 
(there is a current-day church by that name, but it isn't descended from 
the earlier church). I am the person who mapped the Mill Creek Baptist 
Church Graveyard, and am a board member in a nonprofit organization, 
Friends of Mill Creek Baptist Church Graveyard, Inc., that maintains the 
graveyard. The Mill Creek Baptist Church was located within the 
graveyard property, a couple of miles away from where this node in 
question is located. It might possibly have been a different church of 
some other denomination.  Before removing it, I will post a question to 
a Facebook group that discusses local history, and see if anyone can 
tell me if there was ever a church there.



--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out 
hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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[Talk-us] dubious church node

[John F. Eldredge]

OSM Item 356845407 is a node supposedly marking the location of a church 
named "Mill Creek Church", at coordinates 36.0972810, -86.7027754 
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.0972810/-86.7027754>. The node 
history shows two changesets making edits to the node, but no changeset 
for the creation of the node. It has these tags:


amenity
	place_of_worship 
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=place%20of%20worship?uselang=en-US> 


ele <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ele?uselang=en-US>145
gnis:county_id  037
gnis:created05/19/1980
gnis:feature_id 
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:gnis:feature%20id?uselang=en-US> 
	1306749

gnis:state_id   47
name <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name?uselang=en-US> 	Mill 
Creek Church
religion <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:religion?uselang=en-US> 
	christian 
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:religion=christian?uselang=en-US>


I became curious about this, as aerial photos in Google Earth do not 
show a church there. I drove to these coordinates, and determined that 
they are for a loading dock on the back of an industrial warehouse. 
There are no signs indicating that any congregation meets there; the 
warehouse appears to be in active commercial use. Should I remove this 
node? -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Darkness cannot drive 
out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only 
love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*

[John F. Eldredge]

The spatial information will tell you where each business location is; it 
is not sufficient to tell you whether these are multiple locations of the 
same brand, or two unrelated brands that share the same name and category 
of business.



On September 27, 2017 6:51:32 AM Richard Fairhurst  
wrote:



Andy Mabbett wrote:

in different parts of the world


IIRC OSM stores spatial information. I might be wrong.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[John F. Eldredge]

OSMAND+ already uses a vector-based system to render OSM-data-based maps, 
and has been doing so for some time. So, the technology already exists.



On September 25, 2017 6:22:59 AM Richard Fairhurst  
wrote:



Frederik Ramm wrote:

I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.


Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.

But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
openstreetmap-carto.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[John F. Eldredge]

People are confusing labels using the Latin alphabet with labels using the 
Latin language.



On September 25, 2017 8:56:04 AM Oleksiy Muzalyev 
 wrote:



On 25.09.17 12:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev
>:

The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of
science, and it remains the language of scientific classification.
For example, Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.



Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern
languages, which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin
there will be no doubt about which preference is given (European
culture). ;-)


Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage
besides adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.


The discussion is on ideas of introducing labels in Latin alphabet. The
ancient Greek, however, has got its own non-Latin alphabet.

If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? The metric system, which
is used in most countries, was developed in France. At least, using the
Latin language removes such questions. I guess it is probably acceptable
for the Latin America; if so it is not completely a Europe-centricity
solution.

And it is not necessary to study the grammatical structure, what we need
is just to look up a name of a place, one word, in the "la" Wikipedia.
And it is understandable, for example Japan is:
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaponia , Tokyo is:
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokium

It is clear, that keeping map titles only in local alphabets is a
possibility, - it is the status quo. The question was how still to make
a map usable on the international scale.

Best regards,

Oleksiy




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Re: [OSM-talk] Draft Trademark Policy

[John F. Eldredge]

On 9/18/2017 11:01 AM, Simon Poole wrote:

Am 18.09.2017 um 11:47 schrieb Stephan Knauss:

Hello Simon,

On 18.09.2017 10:17, Simon Poole wrote:

Depending on the territory you can have rights in marks that you have
not registered and it is probably completely undisputed that OSM is
associated as strongly as OpenStreetMap with the project.

My main interest is whether we actually have OSM as a mark.

I assume you refer to this:
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/markeng/__4.html


I wasn't actually specifically referenceing Germany, as said it really
depends on which territory you are looking at.

This requires a majority of the "users" associating OSM with the
OpenStreetMap Foundation, or maybe with the product the OSMF has which
is our database.

I assume without a registered trademark it would be up to the OSMF to
actually prove that they created the OSM mark by using it, right?

In general all trademarks require that you actually use them to at least
maintain your rights,


So wouldn't it be wise to actually register OSM to prevent any doubts
on having that mark? Costs don't seem that high. Googling mentions 300
EUR for a registration.

Are we confident, the majority associates OSM with OpenStreetMap?
There was the OSMAPS@ mark a while ago. It belonged to Ordnance Survey
Maps, which can also be abbreviated as OSM.

Can we even legally use OSM with Ordnance Survey having OSMM?
https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/002782688

Wouldn't they be legally required to protect their mark by asking us
to stop using OSM?

Where is the difference between us weakening the OSMM mark and FOSM
weakening the OSM mark?


Obviously I can't comment or even speculate on OS views on their marks,
and it is just as pointless speculating what we we would do if we were
not constrained by financial and manpower resources (as for example the
WMF for all practical purposes is not). As of now we are just covering
the most important things,

Simon


Under US law, at least, a trademark has to be defended (i.e., 
periodically searching for people making infringing use of the 
trademark, and sending them cease-and-desist letters), or else risk 
having a court later decide that the trademark has been abandoned and is 
now in the public domain, free for anyone to use without requiring 
permission.  This has happened over the years to a number of 
trademarks.  Once a trademark has been defended for a certain number of 
years (I am not certain how long), it gets further legal protection and 
you don't have to defend it quite so vigorously. Back about 15 years 
ago, I worked for a small company that was having to defend its 
trademark, so I have a layman's understanding of the issue.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out 
hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [Talk-us] possible upgrade for residential roads in Detroit

[John F. Eldredge]

I don't know about Detroit, but in Nashville, TN, where I live, street 
suffixes don't necessarily reflect their importance. My parents lived for 
decades on Parthenon Avenue, a very minor residential street.



On August 16, 2017 10:08:44 AM "Ionut Radu - (p)"  wrote:


Hi all,

I was looking over residential roads in central area of Detroit and I was 
wondering if some of them should be upgraded to a superior function class 
(e.g. tertiary or secondary).
Lots of them are Avenues and Boulevards with at least two lanes and seems 
to be major collector roads.
I think they were imported from TIGER Roads and some of them need a review 
check.


Some examples:
2nd Avenue (id: 219713713)
West Palmer Avenue (id: 8738831)

The counties of interest are: Wayne, Macomb, Oakland.

What do you think?

Best regards,
Ionut



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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[John F. Eldredge]

The "mechanical Turk" term is not an ethnic slur, but instead an allusion 
to a famous 18th-century chess-playing automaton, made to resemble the 
upper body of a man in traditional Turkish clothing, mounted on a cabinet. 
It was eventually revealed to be a fake automaton, operated by a man hidden 
inside. The modern term refers to a human working a repetitive job, because 
they are cheaper than developing a computer program to do the job.






On June 30, 2017 6:23:15 PM Frederik Ramm  wrote:


Hi,

On 06/30/2017 07:24 PM, Ian Dees wrote:

Every edit was made by a new/separate user account that only ever makes
one edit. In most cases, these edits are useful (it's someone adding a
business POI) but in some cases they add the details to the wrong piece
of geometry.


I see. We had a couple similar issues in the past, presumably from some
kind of SaaS SEO tool that will automatically sign up new accounts for
users of the tool. But we might also be dealing with "mechanical
turk"(*) type of human work.

These tools tend to get more sophisticated in flying under our
collective radar, but usually not sophisticated enough to get the
tagging quite right and avoid adding duplicate data.

The addition of advertising copy in the changeset comment is something
I've seen a lot (often duplicated or amended by a note or description tag).

I wonder if downloading a changeset planet and feeding all changeset
comments to some sort of Bayes filter could help identify more problems.

Bye
Frederik

(*) Where I live this term would be considered really offensive towards
those who do this kind of work but it seems to be the normal term in the US?

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-us] Best practice in Lane Editing 2

[John F. Eldredge]

Judging from the markings, that is a turn lane shared by both directions. You 
cannot legally use it to pass a car in the main driving lane, you can only use 
it to make a left turn. Lanes of this type are nicknamed "suicide lanes", 
because of the possibility that vehicles going in opposite directions may try 
to use it simultaneously, resulting in a head-on collision.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge
com
On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 6:18 AM Horea Meleg <horea.me...@telenav.com> wrote:
Hello all,
Me and my Telenav colleagues are editing lane numbers in Detroit area. We found 
some cases that looks like this (42.43651692568901, -83.51102781049859):
[cid:image001.jpg@01D2E906.C4A4DCA0]
Our question is: what is the central lane used for and how do we map it?
Should we count it as a separate lane and have 3 lanes in this case (one for 
each direction and one for both directions)
[cid:image002.png@01D2E906.C4A4DCA0]
or have only 2, one for each direction?
[cid:image003.png@01D2E906.C4A4DCA0]

Thank you,
Horea Meleg
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Re: [Talk-us] Combined parking/bike lanes

[John F. Eldredge]

One thing that is an issue with many of the marked bike lanes in 
Nashville, TN is that they aren't contiguous.  You will come to a point 
where the road narrows, such as for a bridge, and the bikes are forced 
to share a lane with motor traffic.  This makes bike riding at rush hour 
a risky activity.


On 02/16/2017 10:38 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Spencer Gardner 
> wrote:


Good catch on the MUTCD language. I'm not opposed to tagging with
a bike lane and a parking lane, but then what should be used as
the assumed width of the bike lane? This has direct relevance for
my application, where I need to know how wide a bike lane is.
Would you suggest an assumed width for parking and then subtract
from the total to arrive at the operable space for people on bicycles?


Check the local standard and get a sample.  Current federal guidelines 
put parking at 8 feet (and is fairly typical), bicycle lanes must be 4 
feet minimum, 5 feet if there's parking adjacent, measured from the 
edge of the gutter pan, or if there is none, the curb face or the edge 
of the roadway (being either the physical edge or the painted edge, 
whichever is closer to the centerline) to the inside of the lane 
marking.  Oregon-specific, 6 feet any time an adjacent lane allows 
motor vehicles or is oncoming.  In practice, it's rare to see a lane 
less than 6 feet wide anymore regardless of application because a 
cargo bike, most adult tricycles and many bikes pulling trailers are a 
tight squeeze in a six foot lane.  It's starting to get common to see 
7 foot lanes in Oregon, often with a 1 foot buffer on the left and a 
two foot buffer between the right edge of the lane and the edgeline 
itself, for a 10 foot single-file bike lane.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Spoken street names

[John F. Eldredge]

This would be only semi-successful on English-language names, since 
English has loan-words from virtually every other language on Earth, and 
many of those words don't fit the general English phonetic rules.



On 08/22/2016 01:16 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote:

Am 22.08.2016 um 19:21 schrieb Štefan Baebler:

Having TTS to hear the street names is very nice, but hearing them
correctly pronounced would be even better.

There was an attempt at it:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Phonetics

But AFAIK there was no outcome from that proposal.


Did anyone really investigate how bad using common phonetic rules PER 
LANGUAGE on osm names?
For many names that should work I think, at least when the right 
language is detected correctly.
That, on the other hand, could be hinted by using the corresponding 
name:[lang] tags (name:de, name:en, ...), probably even when the main 
language might be redundant.


regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

[John F. Eldredge]

I know I am replying to a two-month-old message, but the idea of 
restrictions on entering postal codes is baffling.  At least in the USA, 
the Post Office encourages the use of postal codes (called Zip codes) on 
mail, to expedite the delivery of mail, and used to publish large 
reference books listing the postal codes for every address in a 
particular area.  Nowadays, they have a web site where you can enter an 
address, and look up the postal code for that address.  What would be 
the purpose of postal codes that aren't told to the general public?  Or, 
is it that the postal code boundaries are restricted, but the postal 
code for a given address is not restricted?



On 06/21/2016 05:14 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 06/21/2016 11:07 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Perish the thought that people might add their local knowledge to OSM. I
thought it was all imports, armchairing and tagwanking these days.

Only Canadians are allowed to enter their own post codes. The other
countries haven't had their lawsuits resolved yet.

Bye
Frederik




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Re: [Talk-us] Timezones in USA?

[John F. Eldredge]

Note that "usually state lines" isn't the same thing as "always state 
lines".  The Central Time Zone/Eastern Time Zone boundary runs through 
the middle of both Tennessee and Kentucky, and the lines aren't 
straight.  They zig-zag according to which time zone the local 
politicians wanted.


On 05/27/2016 07:49 AM, Greg Troxel wrote:

Frederik Ramm  writes:


I have deleted a couple of such time zone polygons account of not being
verifiable on the ground.

I don't know how time zones are defined "at the source" but it is very
unlikely that someone puts up signs. I guess there'll be some kind of
definition that can be kept *outside* of OSM, and can be translated to
polygons with the help of OSM if desired.

This strict on-the-ground notion is overblown.  The real issue in
verifiability is if an ordinary mapper can check the data.  Everyone
around me knows that timezone they are in.  I'm sure everyone near a
boundary knows where it is.  The rules are easily accessible in
libraries, and they refer to boundaries that are signed (in the US,
usually state lines).  You can look at clocks displayed in public.

The real issue is where to draw the line about specialized details that
don't belong on map.  In the case of time zones, they are something that
has traditionally been represented on maps for a long time, in a base
map kind of way, vs a thematic data shown on a base map kind of way.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Slack

[John F. Eldredge]

One thing I find annoying about most wikis is that conversation threads are 
listed in order of which thread most recently received a reply, not by 
subject. In wikis with large numbers of threads, this means having to guess 
which search terns to use. Sorting by what message replied to what makes 
sense within a thread, but means that you can't scroll through a list of 
subjects to locate a thread already discussing a particular topic.




On April 2, 2016 10:54:19 AM malenki  wrote:


On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:23:29 +0100,
Dave F wrote:


> Do really want to read the full log of a chat room?
If there were a record, many IRC discussions wouldn't occur.


Is that so?
Despite OSM forum, wiki and help there are a lot of people who ask
questions which are already answered.
It doesn't depend on the medium that some people cannot or don't want
to RTFM.
And in IRC it is not unfriendly just to paste a matching link to the
question asked, no need to be overly verbose, log into any forum or
format the text.


It's often used by the weak/arrogant who are too
scared/self-important to have their opinions verified & countered.


I am curious (but don't really want to know) in which IRC regions you
roam.
The people I do meet in IRC regularly a friendly, helpful and skillful
and more often than not quite non-boasting.
Just some names for the record (no weight in completeness and order) I
read regularly: woodpeck, Pascal N, katpatuka, Harry Wood, Richard F,
pnorman, SK53, Firefishy, Lonvia, Simon Poole.

scared
weak
arrogant
self important
[with questionable opinions]

Well, consider it yourself.

And not-so-humble I do consider myself also quite skilled regarding OSM
and mostly a nice person.

The trolls or idiots which pass by now and then occur in every medium.
They consume only so much time and energy you really spend on them –
and in IRC they often don't have much patience. :P

hth
Thomas

(Originally I did not want to respond to this nonsense but since I
finally reply to another mail of your I thought: Whatever)



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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[John F. Eldredge]

I have been working as a developer for thirty years, and had never 
encountered the term "attic data" before this discussion.


On 02/04/2016 01:03 PM, Stephan Knauss wrote:

This time with correct sender ☺

On February 4, 2016 10:15:45 AM GMT+01:00, Stephan Knauss wrote:

Hello Dave and others,

While I agree in general that the wiki should be as understandable for
beginners as possible, please be aware that the audience of your
mentioned page are not beginners.

It is the technical documentation of the overpass API. Application
Program Interface. It is that piece of software an application
developer interacts with.
An API is not intended for the end user.

When you edit OSM data you also use dedicated programs for it and don't
interact with the API directly.

So it is fine when an average developer understands the page.

Having the special vocabulary explained somewhere certainly helps. But
I am quite certain it is explained in the overpass docs.

Stephan


On February 4, 2016 9:41:56 AM GMT+01:00, Mateusz Konieczny
 wrote:

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 22:06:32 +
Dave F  wrote:


Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'?

AFAIK it is how this is named internally in Overpass API - see
https://github.com/drolbr/Overpass-API/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93=attic

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[OSM-talk] Osmand+ question

[John F. Eldredge]

What is the meaning of the pie-wedge shape that extends out from the dot 
marking your current location? The direction in which it extends outward 
changes occasionally. Does it point to the cell tower you are currently 
connected to?

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com (615) 299-6451
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive 
out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Osmand+ question

[John F. Eldredge]

Well, that explains the wavering. I have owned several smartphones, of several 
different brands, but have yet to see one where the magnetic compass sensor 
worked reliably. Fortunately, if you are moving, the direction of travel can be 
deduced from GPS data.


On May 19, 2015 11:09:41 AM CDT, Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 2015-05-19 16:49 GMT+02:00 Dominik George n...@naturalnet.de:
  On 19.05.2015 16:40, John F. Eldredge wrote:
  What is the meaning of the pie-wedge shape that extends out from
 the
  dot marking your current location? The direction in which it
 extends
  outward changes occasionally. Does it point to the cell tower you
 are
  currently connected to?
 
  It shows the direction in which the device is looking, if the
 magnetic
  compass is working properly.
 
 Dominik is right.
 Also note that you can change the orientation of the map with the icon
 in the top left corner.
 
 C
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD name suggestion index - asking non-English-speaking mappers to review

[John F. Eldredge]

Is there a company in Australia named Petrol, or is it simply the term for the 
fuel? As I understand it, the question is whether Petrol is valid as a company 
name.


On May 17, 2015 10:53:07 PM CDT, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 17/05/2015 3:57 PM, Stefan Baebler wrote:
 
  I see Petrol is categorized under discardedNames, but is is in
 fact 
  a valid full name of company with chain of gas pumps in Slovenia 
  (www.petrol.si http://www.petrol.si).
 
  Are there many other similar cases that would make it worthwhile to 
  make this functionality location-aware, dependant on regions 
  (countries, continents, languages)?
 
 Petrol is in common use in Australia... an 'English' speaking country.
 
  16. maj 2015 11.08 pop. je oseba Mateusz Konieczny 
  matkoni...@gmail.com mailto:matkoni...@gmail.com napisala:
 
  On Sat, 16 May 2015 20:07:00 +0200
  Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com
  mailto:www.ha...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   I ask non-English speakers to find anything they are sure it's
 a
  noun
   and not a proper name. name-suggestions.json specifies name
   suggestions and filter.json specifies what non-names should
 be
   filtered.
 
  Sklep spożywczy (Polish for grocery store)
  Apteka (Polish for pharmacy)
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD name suggestion index - asking non-English-speaking mappers to review

[John F. Eldredge]

Is there a company in Australia named Petrol, or is it simply the term for the 
fuel? As I understand it, the question is whether Petrol is valid as a company 
name (apparently 

On May 17, 2015 10:53:07 PM CDT, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 17/05/2015 3:57 PM, Stefan Baebler wrote:
 
  I see Petrol is categorized under discardedNames, but is is in
 fact 
  a valid full name of company with chain of gas pumps in Slovenia 
  (www.petrol.si http://www.petrol.si).
 
  Are there many other similar cases that would make it worthwhile to 
  make this functionality location-aware, dependant on regions 
  (countries, continents, languages)?
 
 Petrol is in common use in Australia... an 'English' speaking country.
 
  16. maj 2015 11.08 pop. je oseba Mateusz Konieczny 
  matkoni...@gmail.com mailto:matkoni...@gmail.com napisala:
 
  On Sat, 16 May 2015 20:07:00 +0200
  Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com
  mailto:www.ha...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   I ask non-English speakers to find anything they are sure it's
 a
  noun
   and not a proper name. name-suggestions.json specifies name
   suggestions and filter.json specifies what non-names should
 be
   filtered.
 
  Sklep spożywczy (Polish for grocery store)
  Apteka (Polish for pharmacy)
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[John F. Eldredge]

If all you are doing on the spot is recording the house number

On April 14, 2015 5:48:09 AM CDT, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 
 Long press. press, press ... typically less than 5 seconds (depending
 on
 the situation I might not even stop walking).
 
 Simon
 
 Am 14.04.2015 um 01:32 schrieb John F. Eldredge:
  That depends, in part, on how long you want to stand there pecking
 away
  at your device, and how suspicious folks are likely to become if you
  stand in front of each building for up to several minutes before
 moving on.
  
  
  On April 13, 2015 4:02:24 AM CDT, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch
 wrote:
  
  
  IMHO if you are actually entering stuff in to a mobile device,
 you may
  as well use vespucci and just do it properly the first time. But
 hten
  I'm biased.
  
  Simon
  
  Am 12.04.2015 um 18:50 schrieb Greg Morgan:
  
  
  
  On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Harald Kliems
 kli...@gmail.com
  mailto:kli...@gmail.com wrote:
  
  In areas with detached houses, the Android app Keypadmapper
 has
  worked pretty well for me. Once house numbers get too dense
 (worst
  case: Montreal, where each apartment in a duplex or triplex
 will
  have it's own house number) it starts getting tricky
 assigning the
  number to the correct building. And yeah, Mapillary imagery
 can
  definitely be useful for address data.
  
  
  Keypad mapper is wonderful because you are not as
 conspicuous
  when using
  pen and paper. I've tried using ranges were I drop the
 leading two
  digits while entering five digit numbers. There's a bunch of
 post
  processing when you actually enter the data. With any
 technique
  that I
  use, I always feel like Billy in the family circus. It is
  amazing where
  people put addresses. Commercial buildings can be the worst
 case
  to try
  and find the number.
  
  http://familycircus.com/comics/april-5-2015/
  
  
  
 
 
  
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 cannot
  drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
  
  
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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[John F. Eldredge]

Commercial buildings are particularly difficult here in Nashville, TN, because 
about 80% of commercial buildings have no street address posted on the outside. 
Apparently, they aren't required to do so.


On April 12, 2015 11:50:21 AM CDT, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Harald Kliems kli...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  In areas with detached houses, the Android app Keypadmapper has
 worked
  pretty well for me. Once house numbers get too dense (worst case:
 Montreal,
  where each apartment in a duplex or triplex will have it's own house
  number) it starts getting tricky assigning the number to the correct
  building. And yeah, Mapillary imagery can definitely be useful for
 address
  data.
 
 
 Keypad mapper is wonderful because you are not as conspicuous when
 using
 pen and paper.  I've tried using ranges were I drop the leading two
 digits
 while entering five digit numbers.  There's a bunch of post processing
 when
 you actually enter the data.  With any technique that I use, I always
 feel
 like Billy in the family circus.  It is amazing where people put
 addresses.  Commercial buildings can be the worst case to try and find
 the
 number.
 
 http://familycircus.com/comics/april-5-2015/
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[John F. Eldredge]

That depends, in part, on how long you want to stand there pecking away at your 
device, and how suspicious folks are likely to become if you stand in front of 
each building for up to several minutes before moving on.


On April 13, 2015 4:02:24 AM CDT, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 
 IMHO if you are actually entering stuff in to a mobile device, you may
 as well use vespucci and just do it properly the first time. But hten
 I'm biased.
 
 Simon
 
 Am 12.04.2015 um 18:50 schrieb Greg Morgan:
  
  
  On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Harald Kliems kli...@gmail.com
  mailto:kli...@gmail.com wrote:
  
  In areas with detached houses, the Android app Keypadmapper has
  worked pretty well for me. Once house numbers get too dense
 (worst
  case: Montreal, where each apartment in a duplex or triplex will
  have it's own house number) it starts getting tricky assigning
 the
  number to the correct building. And yeah, Mapillary imagery can
  definitely be useful for address data.
  
  
  Keypad mapper is wonderful because you are not as conspicuous when
 using
  pen and paper.  I've tried using ranges were I drop the leading two
  digits while entering five digit numbers.  There's a bunch of post
  processing when you actually enter the data.  With any technique
 that I
  use, I always feel like Billy in the family circus.  It is amazing
 where
  people put addresses.  Commercial buildings can be the worst case to
 try
  and find the number.
  
  http://familycircus.com/comics/april-5-2015/
   
  
  
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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[John F. Eldredge]

Under French law, would it be a violation of that copyright if someone recorded 
a GPX trace while walking along the signposted route, then mapped that route in 
OSM using the GPX trace and not using the GR name or shield? Do any of these 
routes have non-copyrighted local names?


On April 4, 2015 11:40:53 AM CDT, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:
 exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved).
 
 Yes, all of that is fair game.  Though I don't know what the GR 
 issue is, and ask you to please clarify.
 
 Sorry for the late answer, been on the road for two days and now are 
 on a rather flaky network connection.  See 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#Francehttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#France
 
 for a very short synopsis of the GR issue.
 
 Thank you.  A quick GR synopsis:  hiking routes in France, even with 
 trailblazers marked on-the-ground (!), are under a restricted 
 copyright and cannot be OSM-entered.  Wow!  Our oft-quoted test is 
 it on-the-ground-verifiable? to determine whether data are 
 OSM-enterable is not as clear-cut as yes or no?
 
 We need discussion, sometimes a Legal Team determinations, good will 
 and open hearts as we figure this all out.  Sometimes on a 
 case-by-case basis.  Not dogma, dig-in-our-heels zealotry.  That 
 isn't easy, so let's face that squarely and cut each other some slack 
 that while there may be friction, we won't burst into flame.
 
 ..  As facts about the world, these data belong to us, and 
 when true, we can put them into OSM.  (Sometimes such data, like 
 airline routes, are inappropriate to put into OSM -- but that's 
 another topic).
 
 I think where we differ is that I see OSM (not only) as a project 
 that demonstrates (in practical use) what citizens can do with 
 today's technology, in an area that just a couple of years back was 
 completely controlled by government and industry.  If by doing so, 
 more government data becomes freely available then that is a nice 
 side effect, but not a primary goal.
 
 Recall what made me start this thread:  I want to clean up/improve 
 crusty/wrong TIGER railway data.  THAT, in the instant case, is my 
 primary goal.  I assert, I believe 100% correctly, that the names of 
 long industrial things hundreds of km long are both my business and 
 facts about the world that belong to nobody in particular, but 
 rather everybody, and hence deserve to be in OSM as correct.  I'm not 
 necessarily doing an import, I'm better naming crusty/wrong data OSM 
 already has with facts about the world.  Yes, these happen to be 
 confirmed by data published by my employees (government agencies). 
 That's it.  Please don't conflate the process just outlined with 
 government data becoming more freely available as a side effect as 
 that is not what I just described nor is it what is happening here.
 
 I don't see it as a vehicle to promote any specific agenda outside 
 of the relatively narrow goals of the project itself. In particular 
 I don't see potentially impacting the primary goal of providing free 
 (as in free of legal restrictions by third parties) geo data to 
 everyone by becoming embrolied in legal fights just to prove a point.
 
 I like proving points when it suits me (especially when I am right!) 
 but again, that's not what this is.  It is cleaning up old, wrong 
 data so they are correct, appropriate-to-be-in-OSM data (but only 
 when correct, and they are wrong now).
 
 It is my subjective impression is that we are just on the brink of 
 the project being unworkable because our contributors are too bold 
 in using third party sources -not- the other way around (and yes 
 when I get back home I have to deal with removing months of work by 
 a mapper together with the DWG because they were too bold).
 
 I respectfully and strenuously disagree.  We still (and likely will) 
 continue to have some predictable and manageable problems with import 
 of data from third party sources, but we have procedures in place to 
 make imports and third party data sources (two different things, but 
 they do often overlap) better.  Emphasis on manageable.  My turn to 
 ask:  How much of these problems are OUR FAULT?  The obvious answer 
 is every last bit.  We need to educate people, train them and be 
 vigilant.  We do all of these things, but if we still have problems 
 (we do, but they do not threaten to make the project unworkable) we 
 simply must do better.
 
 That's roll-up-our-sleeves work, but it isn't throw-up-our-hands the 
 project is almost unworkable.
 
 Respectfully,
 SteveA
 California
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] USA Rail: Calling all OSM railfans! (especially in California)

[John F. Eldredge]

Note that there is a long tradition of encyclopedias, maps, and other 
copyrighted sources deliberately including some bogus facts as a way of 
detecting plagiarism. These bogus facts don't exist in real life, only in the 
copyrighted document, so having them show up in a competing document proves 
that copying took place.


On April 2, 2015 5:12:57 PM CDT, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 Am 02.04.2015 um 05:20 schrieb Russ Nelson:
  ...
  April Fools! Yes, you can. There are many kinds of public domain
 maps
  whose republication needs no license. For example, in the US all
 maps
  published before the magic date, whatever year it is we're up to
  now. Maps copyrighted but not renewed. Maps published without a
  copyright before 1988. 
 Very true.
 
  Maps with insufficient creative content to be
  copyrightable.
 
 They may exist, but are you seriously saying that we (as in individual
 mappers and the OSM community as a whole) should make that
 determination?
 
  There are maps which are canonical sources of facts about the world,
  such as a BNSF map naming subdivisions. No one can own a fact about
  the world, because it's a fact. Just like you can't patent math.
 Same
  idea. You can copyright a collection of facts. You can copyright the
  arrangement of facts. You can copy the presentation of facts. But
 you
  can't copyright the individual facts.
 
 While is true that you can't own a fact in isolation, the problem is
 they are rarely presented in that form.
 
 Up to now OSM has drawn the line in such a way that stuff that is
 signposted and is observable on the ground is fair game (with some
 exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved). If you are
 using
 a collection of facts, be it a list, a map, a file on a computer or
 whatever, we have to now always taken the, fairly high ground,
 position
 that you either need explicit permission (by agreement, licence or
 similar) or that the use of the source is clearly not subject to
 copyright any longer. Forgetting about other rights, regulations etc
 that may exist for the purpose of this discussion.
 
 What you seem to be saying in your above statement, followed by
 stevea's
 battle call to actually do so,  that wholesale extraction of facts
 from
 any source is unproblematic and is something that can be done without
 further consideration and the net result can be used in OSM globally
 with no expectation of problems. BTW you live in the country of
 software
 patents which -is- essentially patenting math.
 
 Alas I suspect you are kidding yourself in a big way.
 
 Simon
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station

[John F. Eldredge]

Are there any rendering packages that can be set to render private objects 
for only a preset list of operator tag values? So, if an association of 
recreational vehicle owners has waste disposal stations only for registered 
users, a map generated by that association could show dump stations open to 
the general public, plus dump stations open to their members, while not 
showing dump stations open only to members of competing organizations?


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On March 17, 2015 3:36:22 AM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:


On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:

 A caravan site might have 200 private hookups. We don't want the hookups
 to be rendered at the same level as the central dump station.
 Backyard dump stations should render even less prominently, if they are
 even mapped at all.


Let's not forget that tagging isn't the renderer.  If a renderer can't dim
or hide access=private on such a POI when it's not desirable to display a
private sanidump, it's the renderer, not the tagging, that's broken.



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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[John F. Eldredge]

In some cases, these hamlets may be separate legal entities, even though 
surrounded by the city.  For example, Davidson County, Tennessee, and the 
city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan government. 
However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial 
autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have 
crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police 
forces.


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On March 17, 2015 4:25:51 AM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:


On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote:

 What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban
 areas?

 My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in
 the US:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541

 I just posted how we could fix this:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931


I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be
retagged as place=neighbourhood



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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[John F. Eldredge]

I will have to look into the details to say for sure.

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On March 17, 2015 4:29:34 PM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:


On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:18 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com
wrote:

   In some cases, these hamlets may be separate legal entities, even
 though surrounded by the city.  For example, Davidson County, Tennessee,
 and the city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan
 government.

However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial
 autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have
 crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police
 forces.

 So, kinda like NYC and the boroughs?  Or more on par with, say, Metro
Oregon http://www.oregonmetro.gov/?  Or is both somehow a thing that
exists?



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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-de] Formal proposal: mechanically reverting fixme=set␣better␣denotation / denotation=cluster

[John F. Eldredge]

Yes, that tag sounds like it should be removed.

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On March 2, 2015 2:55:29 PM moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote:


On 02/03/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 He was interested in
 special trees and was asuming that trees close to other trees were less
 special (something I don't agree with per se, but in practice might have
 worked back then, because the mappers mapping special trees were
 typically mapping only those special trees, hence there was less
 probability of other trees _mapped_ nearby, even if there were actual trees
 in the real world).

Ok, that's a reasonable intent. But not a reasonable method, because
the heuristic is flawed, because storing the result of an osm query
in osm data is bad practice, and because a list of normal trees is
insanely harder to maintain than a list of special trees.

So there's not much to redeem the tag AFAICS. I'm happy to see it
deleted from objects, surely starting with that one import and then
double-checking the other changesets.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mechanically Cleaning Up FIXME Tags

[John F. Eldredge]

I agree. In most cases, a FIXME should be left until someone on-site can 
verify what is correct.


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On February 26, 2015 3:49:58 AM Jonathan Bennett jonobenn...@gmail.com wrote:


On 26/02/2015 08:43, Andreas Labres wrote:
 This confirmation of course could be automated: show the user the
 object with the tags on some areal imagery background and she/he can 
decide (in

 most cases, I'd say).

No -- the aerial imagery could be out of date, and it may not be
possible to tell if the problem has been fixed (or even existed in the
first place) *only* from aerial images. Confirmation by survey would
reliable.

If the problem is in an area where there's no-one to survey, then so
what? Fixmes don't show up on any end-user (as opposed to mapping QA)
rendering, they don't mess up routing, they don't affect geocoding or
have any other negative consequences for consumers of the data. So just
leave them be until someone can get to the area to survey.

J.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mechanically removing objects with FIXME Tags

[John F. Eldredge]

In the case of Nashville TN, where I live, a mass removal of Tiger data 
would erase most of the map.


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drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.




On February 25, 2015 8:01:38 AM moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote:


On 25/02/2015, sly (sylvain letuffe) lis...@letuffe.org wrote:
 But mass-removing that import's fixmes

 I meant : mass-removing the import's objects

Ah well, that's more drastic and a bit off-topic ? But yeah, I'm sure
nobody will mind the mass-removal of, say, Tiger data in the US, which
happens to be the origin of a lots of fixmes :p

An import with fixmes may be a red flag against the import, but it's
not in itself reason enough to undo the import.

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Re: [Talk-us] Tagging addresses on area's

[John F. Eldredge]

On February 4, 2015 10:25:02 PM CST, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org
 wrote:
  It seems to be addr:unit, though it’s not widely used. It’s what
 I’ve been
  using, though.
 
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:unit
 
  d.
  On Feb 3, 2015, at 12:28, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 
  What's the correct tag for unit number, anyway?  This is driving me
 insane
  since it's making it impossible to complete mapping the caravan site
 I live
 
 I punted.  When Josm added a preset that included addr:flats, then I
 started using that tag.  Right or wrong I figured most of the other
 tags are Euro-English coloured, so to speak, that it did not mater if
 I used addr:flats verses addr:unit. __

addr:flats works if you are talking about flats, but doesn't fit other 
scenarios, such as suites in an office building.

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Re: [Talk-us] Tagging addresses on area's

[John F. Eldredge]

On February 3, 2015 2:39:42 PM CST, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us 
wrote:
 On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org
 wrote:
 
  Wonder if we could get this added to the address presets, as this
 (at
  least for the US) is a pretty big deal between office towers,
 apartment
  buildings, trailer parks, and almost every other situation where you
 have
  multiple tenants on the same cadastre lot...
 
 
 +1
 
 
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Sounds like a good idea to me.

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Re: [Talk-us] Bike route relation issues

[John F. Eldredge]

By contrast, I am not aware of any Interstate highways in the southeast USA 
that allow bicycles. From my experience, every entrance ramp has signs 
forbidding non-motorized traffic and mopeds.


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drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On January 11, 2015 8:10:04 PM stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:


On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 1:54 PM, stevea
mailto:stevea...@softworkers.comstevea...@softworkers.com wrote:

I do not agree:  again, I find no evidence (from the Oregon DOT map)
that bicycles are explicitly designated legal on I-5.  It may be
the case that explicit statute specifies bicycles are allowed on I-5
in Oregon, but this map does not explicitly do so.  Again, please
note that no specific bike routes are designated on that map,
either.  It simply displays some highways as Interstates and some
highways as containing wide shoulders or narrow shoulders.  While
not complaining about Oregon's DOT helping bicyclists better
understand where they might or might not ride a bicycle in that
state, I characterize these map data as early or underdeveloped
w.r.t. helpful bicycle routing by a DOT.


Oregon and Washington allow all modes on all routes unless otherwise
posted.  They have to explicitly sign exclusions, and they do.
Here's the list for Oregon

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/freeway_ban.pdfhttp://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/freeway_ban.pdf


And Washington:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/bike/closed.htmhttp://www.wsdot.wa.gov/bike/closed.htm

My previous post was California centric, going too far assuming for
other states.  (And fifty-at-a-time only in certain circumstances).

A starting place (properly placed in the locus of each state, with
perspective as a router might parse logic and build a routing set...)
is the following:

For 100% of ways with tag highway, set bicycle legality_status =
legal.  (This keeps everything still in the running.)  Now, apply
a per-state rule (could be a table lookup, could be a smarter data
record):

With both Washington and Oregon:
 exclude from our data set ways where helpful OSMers have tagged
bicycle=no

With California:
 exclude from our data set ways tagged highway=motorway,
 add to the set cycleways and highways tagged bicycle=yes.

We are right in the middle of fifty ways of calculating a set.
Those target objects might be elements of a bicycle route.  As we get
the tags right (critical, on the data and at the bottom) we must
also treat the rules of what we seek from those data as critical, too
(from the top, down).  It's reaching across and shaking hands with a
protocol, or a stack of protocols.  It's data, syntax and semantics.
When the sentence is grammatical (tags are correct for a parser), it
clicks into place with the correct answer (renders as we wish).

For the most part, we get it right.  But we do need to understand the
whole stack of what we do every once in a while, and pointing out
data in California, treat like this, data in Oregon, Washington...,
treat like that... is helpful to remember.  Can we get to a place
where everybody can do things (tag) just right for them and have it
always work (render), everywhere every time?  M, not without
documentation and perhaps conversations like this.

This is why documenting what we do and how we do it (and referring to
the documentation, and trying to apply it strictly, unless it breaks,
then perhaps talk about it and even improve it...) is so important.

Listen, build, improve, repeat.  Thank you (Paul, for your specific
answer, as well as others for participating).

SteveA
California


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM-Tagging in Wikidata

[John F. Eldredge]

On 12/30/2014 03:00 PM, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Tue, 2014-12-30 at 02:06 +0100, Kolossos wrote:

I would like to keep it as simple as possible and I don't want to
replace the OSM-Wiki where all usefull combinations of tags are described.

You would not only destroy the URL to the OSM-Wiki you would also damage
the format checking tools that we have in Wikidata[1].

Perhaps you have a better example to let me re-think this topic.
cuisine=fastfood is only used 12 times [2].


Fastfood is a method of service, not a cuisine.

Phil (trigpoint)



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Agreed.  There are fast-food versions of many different cuisines.

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Re: [Talk-us] Directional suffixes on roads: yes or no?

[John F. Eldredge]

On 11/29/2014 10:39 PM, Jack Burke wrote:

Howdy,

I have a question about how much effort should be put into adding
directional suffixes to road names.

Many counties around Atlanta have adopted directional suffixes for
roads, both in incorporated areas as well as outside city limits.
Usually all areas in the county use the same system, with directions
denoted NE, SE, NW and SW from some standard point, although some cities
tend to ignore the suffixes. Also, signage is inconsistent--some street
signs bear the suffix while others on the same street don't.

In most cases, the suffix is immaterial, and most people don't use it
anyway. Use of it or not won't affect directions most of the time,
although I know of a few specific cases where knowing the suffix can be
important in finding the right location (is your house 100 Concord Road
Southeast or Southwest?).

The majority of the Tiger data doesn't include the suffix.

So, how much should I worry about the missing suffixes? Should they be
included in the main name= tag? Or one of the other *name tags with the
unsuffixed name in the name= tag.

Because most people don't use the suffix, on some roads I've put the
with-suffix name in the name= tag and the unsuffixed one in the
short_name= tag, but I'm wondering if I should continue to bother.

-jack


--
Typos courtesy of fancy auto-spell technology.


An additional complication is ring-roads, which are likely to have XXX 
North transition into XXX East, etc.


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Re: [Talk-us] Can we get this user band?

[John F. Eldredge]

Rate-limiting sounds like a good idea.


On November 14, 2014 9:56:55 AM CST, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net 
wrote:
 On 11/14/14 10:34 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
  Could someone who knows Chinese check the content of the diary
 entries?
 
  By the way, I assume you mean banned (blocked from participation),
 
  rather than band (group of people). If the latter is what you
 meant, 
  what do you want to get for the group of people?
 it's almost certainly link spam, but you're right, we should have
 a chinese speaking moderator review and handle this if that's at
 all possible, and talk-us is perhaps not the best place for such
 a request.
 
 i'm not sure banning is very practical as they can always create
 another account to blog spam from. but maybe we can get some
 rate limiting built into the diary system as i can think of no valid
 reason to post 50 diary entries an hour.
 
 richard
 
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   Averill Park Networking - GIS  IT Consulting
   OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
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Re: [Talk-us] Can we get this user band?

[John F. Eldredge]

Could someone who knows Chinese check the content of the diary entries?

By the way, I assume you mean banned (blocked from participation), rather 
than band (group of people). If the latter is what you meant, what do you 
want to get for the group of people?


On November 14, 2014 9:20:18 AM CST, Mike Henson mikehen...@hotmail.com wrote:
 can we get this user band? They have made 103 diary posts in the last
 2
 hours.
 
 https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/%E6%9D%8E%E6%AF%85%E5%BC%BA
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] New I.D Feature

[John F. Eldredge]

A given Zip Code can potentially be in more than one US state, since they are 
based on delivery routes.


On November 6, 2014 10:32:19 PM CST, Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com 
wrote:
On Fri, 2014-11-07 at 04:17 +, Elliott Plack wrote:
 Before the state showed up in iD, I had assumed someone could just
 easily derive the US state from the postal code. 

Usually, yes, but that introduces a dependence on third party data
(USPS) that really should not be there. That, and it can be cumbersome.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Detrimental validation software

[John F. Eldredge]

So, your software could potentially mark every connection between two roads as 
roads not connected, leading to having to verify every intersection in the 
world? Sounds like a very bad design.


On October 18, 2014 2:28:01 PM CDT, Yves yve...@gmail.com wrote:
For users to check if it's an error or not, and to correct if needed.
QA softwares look at possible error according to automatic rules in
this exact purpose.
Yves

Le 18 octobre 2014 20:37:21 CEST, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl a
écrit :
On 2014-10-16 18:04, Yves wrote:
 Because its the purpose of this particular software.

Not wanting to diminish this search, but why would you show an error 
roads not connected when they are connected? What is the rationale 
behind flagging this as a possible error?

Regards,
Maarten

 On 16 octobre 2014 17:10:03 UTC+02:00, Maarten Deen
md...@xs4all.nl
 wrote:
 
 On 2014-10-16 15:43, SomeoneElse wrote:
 On 16/10/2014 14:28, Maarten Deen wrote:
 On 2014-10-16 15:15, Dave F. wrote:
 
 I had a footpath between them.
 
 So the problem is also that the check is wrong. Apperantly it looks
 at
 major roads that are apart, but doesn't see that they are connected
 by
 another road.
 IMHO these cases should not be shown at all.
 
  Quite possibly, but as (Andrew Buck has already said) what really
  happened here is that a mapper made a mistake.
 
 But he would not have been led there if it wasn't pointed out as an
 error.
 
 It's not a software
 problem so much as a human one
 
 I beg to differ. The roads were connected. Why show an error two
 roads
 are not connected when there is a connection.
 
 Regards,
 Maarten
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] How best to create a single point of interest online map with OSM data?

[John F. Eldredge]

What is the difference between a point of interest and a single point 
of interest?  Saying that a map will show multiple single points of 
interest seems like a contradiction.


On 09/17/2014 06:32 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

What's the best way to create a global single point of interest map,
with OSM?




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Re: [OSM-talk] Visually detect missing roads

[John F. Eldredge]

On 09/18/2014 11:07 AM, Stephan Knauss wrote:

Dave F. writes:


On 17/09/2014 23:30, Stephan Knauss wrote:

In Google the road is listed as a major highway.

Are you interpreting this data from Google's visual render or
extracting it from their database?


It's coming from their database. Google does expose a classification
through the v3 API. My map does consider the road types arterial and
highway as major and local as minor. For OSM data unclassified and
higher is considered major.

Stephan

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I think that calling a road tagged as highway=unclassified a major 
road is an overstatement.  So, you feel that any road which isn't 
classified as highway=residential, highway=service, or highway=track is 
a major road?


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Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits

[John F. Eldredge]

One street here in Nashville, TN, went for several years without any speed 
limit signs along its three-mile length. Then, one day, it suddenly had signs 
every half-mile or so. I suspect that someone probably argued their way out of 
a speeding ticket on the grounds that there weren't any posted limits. 
Tennessee doesn't have any default speed limits that I am aware of, although 
one can always be cited for reckless driving.


On September 9, 2014 10:47:24 AM CDT, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org wrote:
 I'm of the opinion that wherever the speed limit is just the default
 for
 that road class, it should not need to be posted at all. Any data user
 can
 then infer limits.
 
 Martijn
 
 On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote:
 
  Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted
 speed
  limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted,
  instead there is a state wide prima facie limit:
  http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm
 
  I am considering tagging the unsigned speed limit on residential
 roads in
  my area and am thinking of tagging the authority of the speed with
  source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential based on an extension of the
 type of
  things I see at
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed
 
  How does this sound? Objections? Is there a better way?
 
  Thanks!
  Tod
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Nexus 5 - No GPS - Fix

[John F. Eldredge]

Sounds like an electrical contact wasn't quite touching until the back was 
fully snapped on. I have had problems in the past with micro-USB cables, as 
they get increasingly loose-fitting over time.


On September 7, 2014 6:39:49 PM CDT, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us 
wrote:
 I want to pass along a fix I found for no gps on my Nexus 5. Neither
 Mapillary nor OSM Tracker worked. Mapillary said it couldn't get a gps
 fix.
 After searching it turns out that my back cover wasn't completely
 snapped
 shut on one corner. Snapping it back in place fixed the problem. Just
 one
 little corner, barely noticeable. But once snapped into place, gps
 started
 working.
 
 Clifford
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] route=road - What's that all about then?

[John F. Eldredge]

I have seen park roads that were accessible to the public only during specified 
daylight hours. Using them after park closing time would likely lead to 
trespassing charges. So, an opening_hours tag on those roadways would make 
sense.


On August 23, 2014 4:55:15 AM CDT, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr 
wrote:
 Deleting, deleting...
 
 First we should try to understand the meaning, the purpose of any data
 that
 has been contributed by someone else that we don't understand.
 
 I understand the purpose and meaning of the first two relations. Each
 of
 them describe a route, so the type=route / route=road looks ok to me .
 The second one does not provide much more info than the members
 already
 provide, but let's consider it will improve in the future with for
 example
 an operator=* tag.
 
 For the third one, I don't understand it.
 It is a big list (collection if your prefer) of roads, and  I don't
 understand the opening_hours tags.
 What is this supposed to describe ?
 
 Does this mean nobody can drive on these roads except during the
 opening_hours ?
 
 
 
 2014-08-23 11:18 GMT+02:00 Werner Hoch werner...@gmx.de:
 
  Hi,
 
  Am Donnerstag, den 21.08.2014, 19:20 +0100 schrieb Dave F.:
  
 http://ra.osmsurround.org/analyzeRelation?relationId=18159_noCache=on
  
   This route relation appears to be just for the B3070. Isn't that a
 waste
   of time as it's covered by the ref tags on the ways?
  
   I thought route relations were a way to allow tagging of journeys
 taken
   over numerous types of ways. Any reason why I shouldn't delete it?
 
  They are used to describe infrastructure, too. Currently there are
 85000
  relations of that kind in the database. (1 in DE, only 100 in
 UK)
 
  Often the type=route route=road have extra tags like operator, full
  name, wikipedia/data link, ...
 
  The relation builds a single object for a specific road
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/20884
 
  Personally, for roads with lower importance, like the B3070 I
 wouldn't
  create extra relations.
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/18159
 
 
  In other mails I've seen the ref discussion again. Should it be only
 on
  the way or on the relation?
  While it is redundant to place it on both, it helps to do QA tasks
 like
  missing segments, wrong elements, wrong ref, ...
 
  Relations are not Categories discussion:
  Whenever this page is cited I'm wondering how would you identify the
  specific category with a database request?
 
  just my 2 cents.
 
  This one looks like a bad relation, anyone likes to delete it?
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2621325
 
  Regards
  Werner (werner2101)
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John F. Eldredge]

Speed limits even n4

On August 17, 2014 7:43:03 AM CDT, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
 On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote:
  The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot
  app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally
  oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and
  unhelpful notes in most cases.
  
  
  I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when
  someone reports an error in the app.
 
 Thanks Andreas
 
 I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play.
 
 The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this
 relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup
 question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better.
 
 The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users
 are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously
 proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user.
 
 The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I
 guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit
 report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through
 a
 list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are
 multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst
 driving in Europe either.
 
 Phil (trigpoint)
 
  
  
  /Andreas
  
  
  On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén
  andreas.vi...@gmail.com wrote:
  Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033layers=N
  for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on
  this exact location:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471
  That leads me to believe that that position is the zero
  position of the app used to create these notes.
  
  
  It would be really great if the person who managed to figure
  out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I
  contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer
  questions... Why is everything so cryptic?
  
  
  /Andreas
  
  
  On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge
  j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:
  
  On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
  
   2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen
   md...@xs4all.nl:
   On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
   This continues to be really
   annoying, and the obvious spam
 seems
   to
   cluster at a few locations, where
   10-20 notes can be created with
 the
   same information. The maker of
 this
   app must be made clear that notes
   can't work like this, and users
   would at least be required to give
   some contact information. Most of
   the notes that come from this app
   are useless and will probably stay
   in the database forever.
   
   
   And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO
 it
   is prudent to put in the message or the
   metadata which app reported it. That way
 you
   don't have to go on a wild goose chase to
   see where it is coming from.
   
   Maarten
  
  
  If the useless notes are concentrated at a few
 points,
  it may mean that someone who lives there or passes
  through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or
  beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user
 contact
  and the identify of the app are needed.
  -- 
  John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
  Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can
 do that.
  Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
  Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
  
  
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Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John F. Eldredge]

Speed limits that are an odd multiple of 5 are common in the USA.  For example, 
the most common speed limit on motorways within cities is 55 mph.  15 mph is a 
common speed limit near schools at the times of day when children are likely to 
be using the crosswalks.

Speed limits that aren't an odd or even multiple of 5 are rare, but not 
unknown. They are usually on private roads. For example, the YMCA owns a large 
sports facility outside Nashville, TN. The posted speed limits on the private 
roads within the compound are 16 mph.


On August 17, 2014 7:43:03 AM CDT, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:
 On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote:
  The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot
  app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally
  oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and
  unhelpful notes in most cases.
  
  
  I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when
  someone reports an error in the app.
 
 Thanks Andreas
 
 I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play.
 
 The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this
 relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup
 question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better.
 
 The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users
 are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously
 proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user.
 
 The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I
 guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit
 report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through
 a
 list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are
 multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst
 driving in Europe either.
 
 Phil (trigpoint)
 
  
  
  /Andreas
  
  
  On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén
  andreas.vi...@gmail.com wrote:
  Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033layers=N
  for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on
  this exact location:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471
  That leads me to believe that that position is the zero
  position of the app used to create these notes.
  
  
  It would be really great if the person who managed to figure
  out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I
  contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer
  questions... Why is everything so cryptic?
  
  
  /Andreas
  
  
  On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge
  j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:
  
  On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
  
   2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen
   md...@xs4all.nl:
   On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
   This continues to be really
   annoying, and the obvious spam
 seems
   to
   cluster at a few locations, where
   10-20 notes can be created with
 the
   same information. The maker of
 this
   app must be made clear that notes
   can't work like this, and users
   would at least be required to give
   some contact information. Most of
   the notes that come from this app
   are useless and will probably stay
   in the database forever.
   
   
   And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO
 it
   is prudent to put in the message or the
   metadata which app reported it. That way
 you
   don't have to go on a wild goose chase to
   see where it is coming from.
   
   Maarten
  
  
  If the useless notes are concentrated at a few
 points,
  it may mean that someone who lives there or passes
  through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or
  beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user
 contact
  and the identify of the app are needed.
  -- 
  John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
  Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can
 do that.
  Hate cannot

Re: [OSM-talk] Incorrect speed limit anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John F. Eldredge]

On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl 
mailto:md...@xs4all.nl:


On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:

This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam
seems to
cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created
with the
same information. The maker of this app must be made clear
that notes
can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
some contact information. Most of the notes that come from
this app
are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.


And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in
the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you
don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.

Maarten



If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that 
someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is 
alpha-testing or beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user contact 
and the identify of the app are needed.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[John F. Eldredge]

In the USA, it depends upon whether the property owner has given permission for 
public use.  If a private road through an apartment complex is signed as 
residents and guests only, for example, an outsider driving through can be 
charged with trespassing.


On August 3, 2014 6:50:55 AM CDT, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:
 It depends whether a right of way exists. Things are rather
 complicated in the UK. Private means private, so no entry by default.
 If you are visiting an address on a private road, you have presumably
 been invited, explicitly or implicitly. An unofficial sign residents
 only might not have any force in law. A road in private ownership,
 with a public right of way, can be used though if it is a byway open
 to all traffic. Landowners often object to rights of way across their
 land and might try to discourage their use with misleading signs.
 
 
 On 3 August 2014 12:43:50 CEST, Matthijs Melissen
 i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:
 On 3 August 2014 11:18, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:
  Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road'
 signs,
 such
  as:
 
  - 'Private road'
  - 'Private road no parking'
  - 'Private road no parking no turning'
  - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'
 
  How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use
  access=private?
 
  I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there are
 additional
  signs that forbid entering.
  A private road is privately owned and maintained, but you
 normally
 may use
  it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for delivery
 purposes.
 
 Most private roads are cul-de-sacs, but in the hypothetical situation
 where a private road connects two non-private roads, would there be a
 legal reason you couldn't use the private road as shortcut?
 
 -- Matthijs
 
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Re: [Talk-us] routing tags used by actual routing applications

[John F. Eldredge]

How would you classify two ruts, with some fist-sized rocks dumped into the 
worst-eroded points, leading to the base of a billboard next to a highway? 
Technically it is a service road, used when the billboard is maintained, but I 
tagged it as a track due to its condition. Only a high-ground-clearance, 
four-wheel drive vehicle would be able to use it. This is on public land, 
undeveloped except for a paved footpath on part of it, due to frequent flooding.


On July 3, 2014 11:37:30 AM CDT, Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 I think highway=service could be public or private, just a matter of
 if it
 is used to access a certain building / facility like Martin said.
 Some
 public examples could be road to a public parking lot, driveway in/out
 of
 fire station, road leading to a public works facility.
 
 
 On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Kevin Broderick
 k...@kevinbroderick.com
 wrote:
 
  Highway=service implies a private road, though; if a public road
 dead-ends
  at a single building or facility, it should be =residential or
  =unclassified, right?
 
  The tracktype= key is also not really applicable to many of the
  unmaintained roads around here, at least as described on the wiki.
 The
  description implies that a track is a continuum from a maintained
 roadway
  to a virtually invisible path across a field. The unmaintained roads
 in
  this part of the country are usually old roadways that were
 established
  before modern engineering standards; many of them go up and down the
 fall
  line and have waterbars, washouts, rock ledges, or all of the above.
 For
  example:
 
 
 
 https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t31.0-8/1267970_716253801218_1989759584_o.jpg
 
 
 https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/1266483_716253736348_406630391_o.jpg
 
 
 https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t31.0-8/1264969_716254075668_897288595_o.jpg
 
 
 https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10317804_767096626788_7562385056086790114_o.jpg
 
  All of these photos are unmaintained roads in Vermont. The last one
 is
  probably reasonable for a high-clearance, AWD car (e.g. Subaru) in
 the
  hands of a competent driver, and definitely should be passable by a
 skilled
  driver in a 4x4 pickup or Jeep. The other three would probably
 require a
  modified 4x4 and the right skillset. They are also legal
 right-of-ways, so
  clearly access=yes for all vehicle types (even though I wouldn't
 want to
  get routed down one of those unknowingly).
 
  I've been using the smoothness key to provide additional data on
 such
  tracks, which I realize is a universally agreed solution, but it's
 the best
  one I've found to date; I'd be open to further suggestions.
 
 
  On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
  dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
  2014-07-03 17:36 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser
 brad.neuhau...@gmail.com:
 
  Just trying to process this: wouldn't a tracktype 1 be tagged as
  unclassified or residential anyway?  Or to ask a different way,
 assuming
  that roads with houses should be tagged as residential, when
 should one tag
  a sub-tertiary road as track vs. using unclassified?
 
 
 
  You'd always tag it as unclassified, unless it is not a connection
 road
  and is used only for agricultural / forestry purposes. If it is not
 a
  connection road but used to access a certain building / facility,
 use
  service.
 
  E.g. this is clearly a track: http://binged.it/1odgrTZ
  or this: http://binged.it/1j0zEud
 
  in case of doubt I'd put unclassified ;-)
 
  cheers,
  Martin
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Nominatim in CDP

[John F. Eldredge]

Postal code usually means Zip code, or its non-USA equivalent, not city.


On June 25, 2014 7:20:55 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 2014-06-25 12:37 GMT+02:00 Minh Nguyen m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us:
 
  Postal cities aren't currently tagged as areas, only tag values on
  individual POIs and buildings.
 
 
 
 there is the key postal_code to be used on areas (and streets), I am
 not
 sure if Nominatim evaluates it, but could be.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Apostal_code
 
 cheers,
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Re: [Talk-us] Nominatim in CDP

[John F. Eldredge]

Postal code usually means Zip code, or its non-USA equivalent, not city.


On June 25, 2014 7:20:55 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 2014-06-25 12:37 GMT+02:00 Minh Nguyen m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us:
 
  Postal cities aren't currently tagged as areas, only tag values on
  individual POIs and buildings.
 
 
 
 there is the key postal_code to be used on areas (and streets), I am
 not
 sure if Nominatim evaluates it, but could be.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Apostal_code
 
 cheers,
 Martin
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Nominatim in CDP

[John F. Eldredge]

Yes, but one postal city commonly contains multiple postal codes, so 
storing the postal city in the postal code tag represents a loss of detail.


On J,une 26, 2014 2:33:12 PM CDT, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
 On 6/26/14 3:20 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
  Postal code usually means Zip code, or its non-USA equivalent, not
 city.
 this is one of those fussy points in US geocoding.
 
 the zip code can be mapped to the postal city, which is what is
 in everyone's addresses, and is what i think most us residents
 initially expect when typing an address into a search box.
 
 the underlying point being that there isn't one true geocoder,
 it depends entirely on what you're trying to accomplish. something
 driven by postal codes/addresses can be correct for many
 applications, while being wrong for others.
 
 to my mind the fact that we keep going in circles about this
 is evidence that we're thinking about the problem the wrong way.
 
 richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Worldwide non-surveyed tag edits

[John F. Eldredge]

From my experience in the USA, miniature golf always includes the humorous 
mechanical obstacles.


On June 12, 2014 9:21:46 AM CDT, John Baker rovas...@hotmail.com wrote:
 How very true. However in OSM the established wiki used tag is as I
 posted places them in area and that is how they are mapped in the UK.
 Now if we wanted to expand on that that is fine. That tag is still
 there and if there is a consensus and maybe miniature_golf:type =
 crazy_golf can be obtained later if desired.
 
 It is using a combination of wiki pages, tag usage, etc you can get a
 better understanding.
 
 And often gardening leads to looking at areas of the wiki (you do
 reading up a lot) that have little care as in this case and can lead
 to better improvements to this. I see this as a benefit.
 
 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:04:38 +0100
 From: li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk
 To: talk@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Worldwide non-surveyed tag edits
 
 
   
 
   
   
 John Baker wrote:
 
 
 
   
   
 
   crazy golf is what we call it in the UK others call it miniature
 golf
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_golf
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 In that particular example it's perhaps worth mentioning that that
 wikipedia suggests that the two _aren't_ the same - the last
   sentence of the first paragraph says Miniature golf retains many of
   these characteristics but without the use of any props or obstacles,
 it is purely a mini version of its parent game.
 
 
 
 Cheers,
 
 
 
 Andy
 
 
 
   
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Street Name

[John F. Eldredge]

On 06/01/2014 01:56 AM, malenki wrote:

On  30.05.2014 16:27, Alan McConchie wrote:


Leavenworth is a former logging town that has been turned into a mock
Bavarian village as a tourist attraction. So I'm not surprised that
they are adding Weg to their streets to seem more Germanic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leavenworth,_Washington

If they want to have the street and its name even more and real German,
they should name it Edelweißweg since Edelweiß in German is written
with ß¹, in composed German words no white spaces are used –
and Germans are usually great nitpickers in criticizing such trivia. :)

Thomas

¹ http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edelweiß_(Gattung)
However, if they did so, most English-speakers would probably pronounce 
it Eidelwebweg, since English lacks that character.


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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Street Name

[John F. Eldredge]

Weg is the German equivalent of Way. Someone evidently decided to use the 
German term, since the street was named after a German flower.  The edelweiss 
is a flower native to the Alps (not just in Germany), and English adopted the 
German name for the flower.

If you ever saw The Sound of Music, the Trapp Family Singers won the music 
competition by singing about the edelweiss.


On May 29, 2014 6:34:48 PM CDT, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote:
 I need help with a street name. In Leavenworth, WA there is a street
 named
 Edelweiss Weg that I want to add. Is Weg an abbreviation for
 something?
 It will be tagged highway=service service=alley. Google translate
 doesn't
 help.
 
 If it is an abbreviation, should it be expanded as we usually do?
 
 Thanks from someone with a language deficit.
 
 @osm_seattle
 osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
 OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths

[John F. Eldredge]

Here in Nashville TN, sidewalks in some business districts alternate every few 
yards between having concrete extend all of the way to the curb, and having 
planted strips with grass, flowers, and small trees between the sidewalk and 
the curb. It would be rather tedious to have the tagging have to alternate 
between sidewalk and footway every few yards.


On April 30, 2014 11:19:31 PM CDT, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
 Kai Krueger writes:
   But in the US (at least in suburbia), the sidewalks are often much
   more detached from the road with wide grass strips between
   them. They also sometimes aren't entirely parallel to the road.
 
 Indeed. In Potsdam, NY, we get enough snow that we need those wide
 grass strips to plow the snow onto. But they're not practical in some
 places, so the sidewalk can come close to the road in places. It's
 still a sidewalk, though, and not a way of its own.
 
 There is not a wonderful solution for how do map pedestrian routing
 when it differs from road-associated routing.

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Re: [Talk-us] historic schools (amenity=school; name= * (historical)

[John F. Eldredge]

We need to be able to distinguish between the object no longer being present, 
and the object still being present but its usage having changed.  If it is 
likely to be of historical and/or landmark interest, tagging both the 
historical name and current name is useful.



 Original Message 
From: Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com
Sent: March 4, 2014 8:09:01 AM CST
To: Theodin theo...@posteo.de
Cc: Open Street Map Talk-US talk-us@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] historic schools (amenity=school; name= * (historical)

All gnis objects that are (historical) are no longer present and
should be removed.

- Serge

On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 5:38 AM, Theodin theo...@posteo.de wrote:
 Hi fellow mappers,

 While doing some TIGER cleanup, I often stumble over historical schools 
 tagged as:
 amenity=school
 name=some small town school (historical)

 which are rendered on the map with their name. Are there any ideas for a 
 better tagging as most of
 them (all?) arent really schools any more.
 I tagged some as
 historic=school
 which was in the database 80 times. Any better ideas?

 Regards,
 Theodin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Not attaching polygons to roads

[John F. Eldredge]

Part of the border of Davidson County in Tennessee, USA runs down the 
centerline of a road.


On February 26, 2014 12:42:00 PM CST, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com 
wrote:
On 26/02/2014, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:
 On 26/02/2014 11:16, Maarten Deen wrote:
 On 2014-02-26 11:42, Dave F. wrote:
 It would be pretty silly to have a municiple boundary splitting the
 centre of a road so different administrations were responsible for
 maintaining the left  the right.

 Like here [1]. The border is in the middle of the road,

 Actually in the /middle/ of the road? I see no evidence of that. I'm
not
 suggesting Google Maps are definitive, but they show it to one side.

I don't have a link to share, but there is such a road in my hometown
in France. It caused no end of grief from the residents, because
either both municipalities would decide to do no road improvement at
all, or they'd work on only half the road.

If you thought municipalities and road administrations never do silly
things, think again.

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Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town

[John F. Eldredge]

On February 1, 2014 7:04:43 PM CST, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net 
wrote:
 On 2/1/14 3:59 PM, Sebastian Arcus wrote:
 
  I have some trouble though with the notion of village in the US.
  Looking back to what I know about US (which could be partially
 wrong),
  I'm not sure they really have the true notion of village as per
 many
  other places in the world. In the US, it always seemed to be about
  isolated farms, and towns. Both from a size point of view, but most
  importantly from a functional point of view. In Europe and other
 parts
  of the world, the notion of village is steeped in a long history of
 a
  group of people working the land, and many times being subject to
 the
  authority of one local land owner. All of that doesn't really exist
 in
  the US, if my knowledge serves me right. Even the smallest of
  settlements (bigger than a farm) seemed to have started in the US
  around a group of facilities, such as shops, entertainment venues,
  trading facilities etc. - which would directly correspond
 functionally
  to a town.
 Village is something that will vary. in NY, a village is an
 incorporated
 governmental
 entity which is much smaller than a city. (all of what follows is NY
 specific, by the way).
 where as a county in NY (NYC excepted) is completely tiled by cities
 and
 towns, villages
 are mostly contained within towns (but some villages do cross town
 boundaries.)
 
 in NY, Hamlet is the term used for random place names where there
 isn't
 a corresponding
 governmental entity.
 
 richard
 
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The definitions vary widely, state by state.  In Virginia, a town or village 
may have its own local government, but is subordinate to the government of the 
county containing it.  A city in Virginia, by contrast, has a local government 
on the same level as a county government, and is not considered to be part of 
the county even if it is completely surrounded by the county.

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Re: [OSM-talk] How to Tag Closed Airport

[John F. Eldredge]

Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:
 I favor disused=yes, perhaps with access=no and a note=.
 The wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disused would favor
 disused:aeroway=aerodrome
 -Byce
 
 Notes 1) Were there an objectnote:en= feature meant for display in
 map clients, this would be a good addition also.
 
 Note 2) While not relevant here, the OSM lifecycle tags are missing a
 number of steps: broken when last observed is
 the lifecycle stage I most frequently want to map.  There's also
 under construction but not finished when last observed.
 
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going to be when last observed, unless you are talking about a live broadcast.

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Re: [Talk-us] Tags to use for chain stores in the United States

[John F. Eldredge]

Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 2013/12/11 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com
 
  Personally, I tag big box stores like Target, KMart, WalMart etc
 with
  shop=department_store, just because that seems like the closest fit
 that
  isn't too restrictive (they're much more than a supermarket, to my
 mind).
 
 
 
 a supermarket can sell a lot of stuff that is not food and still
 remain a
 supermarket, e.g. the bigger ones might also sell clothing or some
 consumer
 electronics (tv, pc). A department_store has lots of stuff and lots of
 salesclerks serving you.
 
 kmart vs.
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/72294117@N03/7645650440/in/photolist-cDBXvj-dq7UY1-ePHTru-bzJeq-bzJiD-cLqWVb-cLqV7E-cLr1dJ-9HVd61-93H2Bi-fqvVSW-fqgRhp-fqgCZF-fqvSz9-fqgDvH-9XxowN-cDBZdU-cz73B1-8pPW7V-gvtUD5-gvtG83-7MJmWf-7MJoSQ-7MEupg-7MJuo7-7MJoKf-7MEpki-7MJrKW-7MEmRp-7MEmtr-7MEB4M-7MJtrd-7MJn5G-7MEBMa-7MEmAt-92tyfy-ePJ3xs-gvubH6-akA57y-ekk8vZ-cgQsed-7Zsd71-cXAMRY-cXAL4q-cXAHio-cXAJiQ-asWMnp-buguzF-bugtMt-c4vfy9-8m1Xv1
 
 department stores:
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Central_Department_Store_ZUM_Sofia_20090406_007.JPG
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Harrods%27_Egyptian_room.JPG
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Paris_Lafayette_inside.jpg
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KaDeWe_Deli.JPG
 
 generally a department_store has more of the pricier stuff or at least
 tries not to appear too cheap, while a supermarket tries the opposite:
 appear as cheap as possible. Also a supermarket will have a huge
 parking in
 front of it, while a department store will be found in the city center
 and
 will have an underground or parking deck.
 
 For those you name I think they would be better classified as
 supermarkets.
 
 cheers,
 Martin
 
 
 
 
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However, in common usage, supermarket refers to a store where the majority of 
merchandise sold is food.  The big-box stores typically sell some food, but the 
majority of the merchandise is not food.

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Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward

[John F. Eldredge]

Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote:
 On Tue, November 26, 2013 1:57 pm, Ian Dees wrote:
  On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote:
 
  On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote:
   Hi all,
  
   I'm new to this list so please bear with me.
   The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and
 'backward'
   roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost
   column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very
   common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they
 are
   officially signposted.
 
  I would be very careful in using this. Is this really south e.g.
  180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ?
 
  Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are
  only rough directions.
 
  Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data
 Consumers
  to process and interpret data.
 
 
  No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of
 the
  road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going
 west, but
  a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were
 pointing
  north:
 
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612
 
 Perhaps images like these, found nearly at random on the web, will
 illustrate typical motorway and highway marking in the US.
 
 http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4030/5145458837_d192798a62_o.jpg
 http://www.interstate80.info/i80_nevada_lettsign.jpg
 
 Road directionality is based on the total length of the highway.
 So if the interstate (motorway) is 3000km long and generally
 more east/west than north/south it will have east/west markings
 on it even in areas where it is going north/south or even
 reversing itself for a short distance and going west/east.
 
 Marking the directionality in the relation would make it easier
 for creating navigation instructions that match what the driver
 sees on the ground (e.g. turn left on to ramp for I-10 west).
 
 Tod
 
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Adding to the confusion, you have two conflicting schemes in use in the USA.  
The Interstate highways are referred to as East/West/North/South according to 
the direction a particular side of the highway is going, so that I-40 W and 
I-40 E are opposing sides of a divided highway.  You also have compass-point 
letters used to distinguish between branches of the same route.  For example, 
US 31 runs north/south.  A portion of it branches off as US 31W, which runs 
roughly parallel, some miles westward of US 31, and eventually merges back into 
it.

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Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.
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Re: [Talk-us] Railroads and Railroads (Historic)

[John F. Eldredge]

On 11/10/2013 03:30 PM, nathan proudfoot wrote:

Hello got some questions about Railroads,
I have a passion for the preservation of railroads and the maps 
surrounding them.  I both update current map data with a line per each 
track.  Track is in most cases two rails attached by a sleeper or tie. 
I have over 10,000 edits over on GMM and under 4,000 with OSM.


I am mostly coming to ask about historic railroads and how to map them.
In my area we have lots of rail trails, these trails mostly have been 
mapped by

bicycle=yes
foot=yes
highway=cycleway
horse=yes
name=John Wayne Pioneer Trail
note=railway=abandoned indicates a rail-trail
old_railway_operator=Milwaukee
railway=abandoned
Ect..

Is this the way that we should be mapping these as there are historic 
attributes.

For instance we could add.
historic=ruins
ruins=railroad

or we could remove railway=abandoned
but in this case the railroad is rail banked and could be brought out 
of abandoned status.


We have other routes in the state that are not rail banked and are 
historic and are not seen as abandoned.


 Best Regards,
Nathan Proudfoot
email: n.pf...@gmail.com mailto:n.pf...@gmail.com

We probably need a value such as railway=inactive for routes that are 
not in use, but still have the rails in place.  The only problem is 
that, if someone erroneously tags an active but little-used route as 
inactive, this could lead to an accident if someone went hiking or 
rail-biking on the route.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: [Talk-us] Public Labs/balloon mapping?

[John F. Eldredge]

Ian McEwen ianmcorvi...@ianmcorvidae.net wrote:
 Hi; I've been recently looking around http://publiclab.org/,
 especially
 at their tools for doing ground-tethered balloon and kite mapping
 (http://publiclab.org/wiki/balloon-mapping). The bulk of the prose on
 the site seems to be activism-oriented -- documenting the BP oil
 spill,
 Occupy encampments, etc. As you might guess I'm more interested in the
 potential to use this for OSM, but stories of others doing that seem
 to
 be sparse.
 
 Has anyone here used balloon mapping or these tools (or similar ones)
 who can share experience, pitfalls, etc.?
 
 --
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Friends of friends have done high-altitude balloon photography using weather 
balloons.  This isn't quite the same thing as what you are planning, but I will 
try to find their contact details.  One difficulty of using such photos for 
mapping, it seems to me, will be determining the downward angle at which the 
photos were taken, so as to calculate the perspective.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-us] Freeway directions

[John F. Eldredge]

Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:
 The direction of a US Interstate isn't necessarily the compass
 direction of
 the road.
 
 For example, this chunk of I-94 is facing south, but it's still
 eastbound
 I-94.
 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/33098899
 
 
 On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Richard Welty
 rwe...@averillpark.netwrote:
 
  On 10/17/13 1:52 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
   The use case would be to distinguish between onramps in routing
 and
   guidance. The onramp entrances can be close together, so it helps
   tremendously if you can say 'turn right onto Interstate 215 West'
   instead of just 'turn right onto Interstate 215'.
  
  hmmm. we're using exit_to (i think) for off ramps, maybe we need
  entrance_to for on ramps
 
  the value would be more or less exactly the text visible on the
  signage.
 
  richard
 
 
 
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Another example would be Interstate 24.  It nominally runs East/West, but the 
actual alignment is Southeast/Northwest.

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Re: [Talk-us] Complex intersection mapping

[John F. Eldredge]

Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
 On 10/14/13 1:52 PM, Ian Dees wrote:
 
 
 
  On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Martijn van Exel
  marti...@telenav.com mailto:marti...@telenav.com wrote:
 
  Hi all,
 
  Here at Telenav we have been looking at complex intersections
 and we
  have set about editing some of these intersections in a way we
 feel
  represents the situation on the ground better than their
 original
  state, and because of that, works better for us. We have
 received some
  feedback on our edits so we wanted to take a step back and see
 what we
  (as the OSM community) think is the preferred way to map these
  intersections.
 
  So what are we talking about? Intersections like this one, where
 one
  or more dual carriageways come together at an at-grade
 intersection:
 
 
 https://www.evernote.com/shard/s9/sh/6438c196-bb92-4f66-81dc-9b75186286ba/0e8f07ff527c6a85c0dec426b9b79f1e
 
  One of my colleagues at Telenav has remapped this intersection
 as
  follows:
 
 
 https://www.evernote.com/shard/s9/sh/3491f1fe-6afa-4571-bc43-7cb31c9c2625/9dd47d1445fdcf03d3f0bbd93b8e0f92
 
 
  I've seen more examples of your after photo than the before in
 my
  mapping. I create them by default when dual carriageways intersect.
 
  +1 you're doing the right thing.
 
 i consider the after a better approach as well.
 
 richard
 
 
 
 
 
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I agree that the second version is much better.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Who interprets semicolon in tag values?

[John F. Eldredge]

Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote:
 Am 24.09.2013 13:39, schrieb Shaun McDonald:
  
  On 24 Sep 2013, at 10:55, Elena ``of Valhalla''
 elena.valha...@gmail.com wrote:
  
  On 2013-09-24 at 09:31:09 +, Philip Barnes wrote:
  Bank and ATM are more or less synonymous these days, I cannot
 think of a bank without an ATM. The interesting ATM tags are the ones
 that are not at a bank.
 
  it's not true everywhere in the world: at least in italy there 
  are small banks with no (external) ATM, where you have to enter 
  the bank (in the usually short opening hours), go to the counter 
  and then you can get money (using your debit card).
 
  
  I have come across banks in the UK without an external ATM. The way
 I map an ATM at a bank is to use the tag amenity=bank;atm=yes. 
  have for a big store, put a node on the building outline and put
 amenity=atm on that node so that you know where on the building edge
 there is an ATM. 
  Thus similar to building entrance mapping.
 
 putting the node directly onn the outline (such that it's member node
 of
 the outline) may be ambiguous as it's not clear if the atm is inside
 or
 outside the building.
 Therefore I put it directly beneath the outline.
 
 For any purposes directed towards indoor mapping this IS a relevant
 differentiation not possible with nodes on building outlines.
 
 regards
 Peter
 
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In my experience, it is becoming increasingly common to see indoor ATMs in 
shopping malls and businesses. At least in Tennessee, virtually every 
convenience store has an ATM, always inside the store.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Dirt Roads in Mapnik, default render in OSM

[John F. Eldredge]

So, how would you classify a one-lane road leading through a former field, 
now overgrown with 30 years or so of bushes and saplings, leading to a 
billboard adjoining a motorway? The only improvements the road receives is to 
be mowed periodically to keep it passable, and its only use is by crews 
periodically changing what is displayed on the billboard.  This hardly 
qualifies as agricultural use, but I tagged it as a track because it is too 
rudimentary to qualify as anything else.


Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de wrote:
 On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 03:40:33PM +0200, Maarten Deen wrote:
  I think the general idea is that track is a dirt roads fit for
  two-tracked vehicles (cars, agricultural) and path is a dirt road
  fit for one-tracked vehicles (because too narrow for two-tracked).
 
 A track is for aggricultural purposes - As soon there is the school
 bus or waste collection trucks passing it CANT be a track.
 
 Its either highway=service/service=driveway or an unclassified - it
 might have a surface=dirt/grass whatever.
 
 Flo
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[John F. Eldredge]

Agreed.  I suspect a lot of mistakes in the OSM database by new mappers would 
have been backed out by them, could they figure out how to do so.


Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com
 wrote:
 
  In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more
 prominent
  and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better
 delete
  workflows.
 
 I don't see this as a problem. Deleting is equally important as
 inserting or moving objects in any editor. When you edit a page in
 wikipedia, nobody complains that deleting words is so easy, even for a
 first contribution. What I deeply regret is that OSM website still
 does not offer to everyone, including newcomers, a fast and easy way
 to revert an edit once it is saved. Reverting is done in two clicks on
 wikipedia. This is something important for newcomers. They are less
 worry to participate if they know that they (or someone else) can
 revert at any time their mistakes, even after clicking the 'save'
 button.
 
 I have personnally more problems when I see that moving a node is
 simpler than moving a way, but that's a detail.
 
 Pieren
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Www.openstreetmap.org Down?

[John F. Eldredge]

IP address 192.168.1.1 is a local, unroutable address, meaning that it would 
have to be on your local LAN for you to connect to it.  If that is the address 
that name servers are giving out for tile.openstreetmap.org, then the wrong 
information has been supplied to the name servers.


Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote:
 Here's what I get:
 
 
 C:\Users\Stevenslookup tile.openstreetmap.org
 Server:  UnKnown
 Address:  192.168.1.1
 
 DNS request timed out.
  timeout was 2 seconds.
 DNS request timed out.
  timeout was 2 seconds.
 DNS request timed out.
  timeout was 2 seconds.
 DNS request timed out.
  timeout was 2 seconds.
 *** Request to UnKnown timed-out
 
 Steve
 
 On 14/08/2013 21:12, Grant Slater wrote:
  Hi Liz,
 
  Still an issue?
  Please could you do the following for me to check...
 
  Open Terminal (OSX or Linux) / Command Prompt (Windows) and type the
 
  following command and send me the result. (offlist best)
   nslookup tile.openstreetmap.org http://tile.openstreetmap.org
 
  Regards
   Grant
 
 
  On 14 August 2013 21:05, Liz Barry eba...@gmail.com 
  mailto:eba...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  maybe something local. no tiles loading for me in Brooklyn, NYC
 USA
 
  @lizbarry http://twitter.com/lizbarry
 
 
  On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Grant Slater
  openstreet...@firefishy.com
 mailto:openstreet...@firefishy.com
  wrote:
 
  The site is up and traffic is at expected levels.
 
  Does the site not respond at all or a part not load?
 
  If there were a major outage it would be reported here:
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Platform_Status
 
  Regards
   Grant
   Part of OSM sysadmin team.
 
 
  On 14 August 2013 20:33, Steve Doerr
 doerr.step...@gmail.com
  mailto:doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Is it?
 
  -- 
  Steve
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!

[John F. Eldredge]

Does anyone else besides me keep imaging Pavel Chekov (from original-series 
Star Trek) announcing shields are up with a heavy Russian accent?


Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 Strangely, the Oklahoma Turnpikes that have relations aren't showing
 up on
 the osm.us tile server.
 
 
 On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 1:55 AM, James Mast
 rickmastfa...@hotmail.comwrote:
 
  In a previous e-mail to the list, he said that relations for
 Turnpikes
  were based off the name tag for the relation, while the ones that
 had
  numbers shields were based off the network + ref tags in the
 relations
  avoiding the name tag entirely.
 
  -James
 
  --
  From: lordsu...@gmail.com
  Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 23:30:24 -0500
  To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
  Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!
 
 
  On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 7:44 PM, James Mast
 rickmastfa...@hotmail.comwrote:
 
  I'm curious, but has a solution been found for the problem with the
 PA
  Turnpike because of having to split up the ways into separate ones
 for each
  direction because of the relation getting close to the 1000 way
 limit
  we've imposed?
 
  I still think that using the super relation I created to tie the
 route
  together could be used instead for applying the shields over the
 separate
  ways for each direction.
 
 
  I'm not sure why/how directional relations would be a problem; I
 have the
  signed part of I-22 labeled with separate east/west relations yet
 there
  aren't 2x the number of I-22 shields as there are US 78 shields
 (which is a
  single relation).
 
 
 http://tile.openstreetmap.us/osmus_shields/preview.html#13/33.6875/-87.0588
 
  (For routing applications we probably want directional relations
 anyway,
  since directional heuristics based on geography aren't always right
 in
  terms of the signed/logical route direction.)
 
 
  Chris
  --
  Chris Lawrence lordsu...@gmail.com
 
  Website: http://www.cnlawrence.com/
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!

[John F. Eldredge]

Sorry, that was supposed to say imagining, not imaging.

John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote:
 Does anyone else besides me keep imaging Pavel Chekov (from
 original-series Star Trek) announcing shields are up with a heavy
 Russian accent?
 
 
 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
  Strangely, the Oklahoma Turnpikes that have relations aren't showing
  up on
  the osm.us tile server.
  
  
  On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 1:55 AM, James Mast
  rickmastfa...@hotmail.comwrote:
  
   In a previous e-mail to the list, he said that relations for
  Turnpikes
   were based off the name tag for the relation, while the ones that
  had
   numbers shields were based off the network + ref tags in the
  relations
   avoiding the name tag entirely.
  
   -James
  
   --
   From: lordsu...@gmail.com
   Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 23:30:24 -0500
   To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
   Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!
  
  
   On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 7:44 PM, James Mast
  rickmastfa...@hotmail.comwrote:
  
   I'm curious, but has a solution been found for the problem with
 the
  PA
   Turnpike because of having to split up the ways into separate ones
  for each
   direction because of the relation getting close to the 1000 way
  limit
   we've imposed?
  
   I still think that using the super relation I created to tie the
  route
   together could be used instead for applying the shields over the
  separate
   ways for each direction.
  
  
   I'm not sure why/how directional relations would be a problem; I
  have the
   signed part of I-22 labeled with separate east/west relations yet
  there
   aren't 2x the number of I-22 shields as there are US 78 shields
  (which is a
   single relation).
  
  
 
 http://tile.openstreetmap.us/osmus_shields/preview.html#13/33.6875/-87.0588
  
   (For routing applications we probably want directional relations
  anyway,
   since directional heuristics based on geography aren't always
 right
  in
   terms of the signed/logical route direction.)
  
  
   Chris
   --
   Chris Lawrence lordsu...@gmail.com
  
   Website: http://www.cnlawrence.com/
  
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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: comments on new map widget on main page

[John F. Eldredge]

I had intended to send this to the list, not just to Lester Caine.


 Original Message 
From: John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com
Sent: Mon Jul 29 14:16:32 CDT 2013
To: Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] comments on new map widget on main page

I had always assumed that the Where am I made the map show the user's 
approximate physical location, based on their IP address, or on their GPS 
reading if done from a mobile device.


Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
 AJ Ashton wrote:
  On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk
  mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
 
  The point I was trying to make is the fact that when one is
 supplied a link
  one often does not know where in the world it is, especially the
 encrypted
  ones. I asked a number of times in the past for some description
 on where we
  have been parachuted into
 
  You can already get a textual description like this via the Where
 am I? link
  below the search box. There was a recent discussion about what might
 be done to
  improve this and the other geolocation features of OSM:
  https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/373
 
 Well I never ... How long has that been there?
 http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/ down at the moment? I'm only
 seeing short a 
 GeoNames result. The comments on that link certainly points out the
 poor title. 
 Even if I had noticed it, I doubt I would have twigged it was 'Where
 am I 
 looking at?'
 
 Curious ... I'm not getting anything at the moment. Just a blank
 'tab'.
 But this should work the same as the pop-ins on the other side? Moving
 the 
 centre of the map is irritating :( Actually if the 'results' from that
 just 
 appeared in the share pop-out?

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Re: [Talk-us] Cemeteries in OSM?

[John F. Eldredge]

When you start getting to the level of information not actually on the grave 
marker, not to mention information about people known to be buried in the 
cemetery, but whose grave markers are missing or no longer legible, it makes 
sense to have this information in a separate database rather than in OSM 
itself.  I am on the board of a small historical society that maintains an old 
cemetery.  Many of the graves once had cypress-wood markers, as the local stone 
doesn't weather well, and marble or metal markers were expensive. An 
early-twentieth-century grass fire destroyed the wooden markers, so we now 
don't know exactly whom is in the majority of the graves.


Mike N nice...@att.net wrote:
 On 7/29/2013 10:49 AM, Thomas Colson wrote:
  _Is this even an appropriate use of OSM?_ I have a cemetery mapping
project with LOTS of good data, pondering the best way to publish
 it….
 
  I would say - yes.  To me the considerations lie in how much data to 
 include: Everything on the stone?   Local information about the
 person? 
   Additional knowledge from historians and sextons?
 
 On a related note, this subject came up for me a few weeks ago.  Mark 
 Gray had given a lightning talk on this subject at SOTM US 2010 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_U.S._2010 .  I was
 
 thinking of starting with a single waypoint, which can be very
 accurate 
 after multiple averaging, multiple readings at different times of day,
 
 etc.   Then using a rig for highly accurate headstone location
 readings 
 relative to the reference point, which could be converted to
 GeoLocation 
 coordinates.I couldn't find any simple, low cost way to do this
 with 
 a quick Internet search.   Are there Smartphone apps that can do this 
 with the help of their accelerometer?  Some other type of hardware?
 
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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Releasing my data into Public Domain

[John F. Eldredge]

Neither one of the references you cited states that a private individual cannot 
give up their copyright and thus release a work into the public domain.


Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote:
 On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote:
 
  Neither of those is public domain. I know for individuals there can
 be
  issues releasing data into the public domain, but if a government’s
 lawyers
  feel their data is public domain, I generally just take them at
 their word.
 
  If the data is public domain then a simple statement that the data
 is
  public domain should be enough. With PD you’re not actually
 licensing the
  data, you’re stating that it’s not covered by copyright and there
 aren’t
  any exclusive rights that need licensing.
 
 
 Sadly it's not that simple. Public domain can only be works of the US
 federal government (for use within the US specifically), or where
 copyright
 has expired, and I'm sure a few other edge cases. Whether you like it
 or
 not, in the US, unless you're an employee of the US federal
 government, you
 can't release works into the public domain. That's what CC0 is for.
 Read
 more here:
 http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#PublicDomainSoftware
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain_software
 
 -Josh
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

[John F. Eldredge]

In Nashville, TN, where I live, most of the city's growth has been since World 
War II, and hence suburban in nature.  Some subdivisions have permanent signs, 
some don't.   Some have a discernable tree structure, some have a loose grid, a 
few areas have a rectilinear grid.  Plus, some areas combine later development 
with what used to be small towns, swallowed up as the city expanded.  Some 
areas have names picked by a modern developer, some are named after these old 
towns, and at least one area is named after a particular pre-Civil-War mansion 
that, for decades, was the largest house in the neighborhood.  So, the 
neighborhood naming scheme is best described as all of the above.


Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org wrote:

 I've driven all over Cincinnati's northeastern suburbs collecting 
 subdivision names, the ones that adorn signs and gates at subdivision 
 entrances. I used to hear school bus drivers use the same names when 
 communicating their progress over the radio. These subdivisions are
 only 
 meaning of neighborhood that makes sense in an area with endless
 sprawl.
 
 Upon returning to my armchair, I trace individual landuse=residential 
 polygons for each of these subdivisions. It's easy to discern the 
 boundaries because most subdivisions aren't connected. Where they are,
 
 one can easily spot where sidewalks end, one cookie cutter
 architecture 
 gives way to another, or the pavement quality changes -- some cities 
 repave one whole subdivision at a time.
 

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Re: [Talk-us] Parking rendering

[John F. Eldredge]

Makes sense to me.  Private parking and parking accessible to the public should 
certainly be tagged and rendered differently.  I would not be surprised if some 
people, trying to use an OSM map to find a place to park, and instead being 
directed again and again to parking that turned out to be off-limits, ended up 
giving up on the use of OSM altogether.


Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.com wrote:
 To amplify what Serge said about Washington, no distinction was made
 for
 the behind-the-house, 1-2 vehicle private space versus large public
 lots.
 So if you were to look at the WashDC map, you'd be misled into
 thinking
 there is parking everywhere! I rather like the suggestion of
 addressing it
 through capacity, public/private, and access. Scale-dependent display
 would
 help, as well.
 
 -- SEJ
 -- twitter: @geomantic
 -- skype: sejohnson8
 
 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate
 from
 incomplete data.
 
 
 On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org
 wrote:
 
  I agree this should ideally be addressed at the data level. If all
 parking
  nodes had some capacity / access information, the renderer could
 prioritize
  for larger public parking when zooming out, for example. And
 entering every
  strip of street parking spots as parking in OSM does not make sense
 to me.
 
  As it is, it's probably better to have mappers being exposed to this
  'over-parking' in some areas, so that we actually have this
 discussion.
  Whether that exposure should be on the main map or on a separate
 data
  dashboard is a non-issue until we actually have these data
 dashboards ;)
 
  Martijn
 
 
  On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 7:25 AM, Serge Wroclawski
 emac...@gmail.comwrote:
 
  On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Nathan Mills nat...@nwacg.net
 wrote:
   (I switched to talk-us for this reply because it doesn't touch on
  import issues)
  
   I don't think it's so much a bug in the stylesheet as much as a
 bug in
  the world we're trying to map. Many cities simply have excessive
 amounts of
  parking and that shows up on the map.
 
  This is partially (though not entirely) a US problem, and while
 we
  can argue the issues around parking in general, the map clutter is
 due
  to a combination of rendering issues and other problems.
 
  For example, in the Washington, DC area, there are many small,
 narrow
  parking areas which are in reality just street parking that has
 been
  improperly imported.
 
  I suspect that if we examine many areas where parking is so
 cluttered,
  we will find some combination of rendering issues and data issues.
 
  The data issues will need addressing, then the rendering problems
 are
  likely going to be fairly solvable.
 
  - Serge
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

[John F. Eldredge]

Note that, if not all of the subdivision has been developed as yet, the 
residents may not be entirely sure where the undeveloped subdivision land ends 
and other, adjoining, undeveloped land begins, so you might need to check with 
the company that is developing the subdivision.


Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 
 
 On 11/giu/2013, at 21:07, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote:
 
  Often, I can't determine the subdivision boundary from either Bing
 or a survey; I'd need to see an organization map which would be of
 questionable license.
 
 
 or ask the people that live there, would that be feasible?
 
 cheers,
 Martin
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

[John F. Eldredge]

My house is technically in a subdivision named Murray Heights, but I have only 
seen that name on the deed, and on maps.  In the 21 years I have lived here, I 
have never heard anyone use that name.  The subdivision was built in the late 
1950s, and, unlike some other local subdivisions, there aren't any permanent 
signs in place as you enter the subdivision.

According to the post office, my house is in the Woodbine postal district, 
named after a small town that was subsequently swallowed up by the expansion of 
Nashville.  However, when people refer to the Woodbine area, they usually mean 
the approximate area of the old town, several miles from my house.

I usually refer to my neighborhood as Antioch, the name of another small town 
that has expanded outward, even though the official border of Antioch, 
according to the post office, is about 300 feet from my house.


Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:
 
 
  On 11/giu/2013, at 21:07, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote:
 
   Often, I can't determine the subdivision boundary from either Bing
 or a
  survey; I'd need to see an organization map which would be of
 questionable
  license.
 
  or ask the people that live there, would that be feasible?
 
 
 Sometimes subdivisions map cleanly to neighborhoods.  But not always.
 
 In the USA aspirational neighborhoods are common, if not the rule.  As
 a
 neighborhood gets trendy more and more people at the edges (and more
 and
 more Realtors) latch on to that name.
 
 The Zillow data is a very rigid idea of what a neighborhood is.
 Walk three blocks away from Noe Valley and ask what neighborhood you
 are
 in,
 and you're likely to get four answers.  Capturing that diversity would
 produce a far more useful neighborhood guide than just importing
 Zillow.
 
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Re-opening a note if necessary?

[John F. Eldredge]

I agree that it should be possible to update notes after the fact.


malenki o...@malenki.ch wrote:
On  08.06.2013 22:22, James Mast wrote:

 I'm curious, but does anybody think that notes should be able to be
 re-opened if necessary?

Definitely yes.
I've created a ticket here:
https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4874

I was astonished there wasn't one since I heard a lot of complaining
about this missing feature both in OpenStreetBugs and now at notes.

Regards
Thomas


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Re: [Talk-us] Removing US Bicycle Route tags

[John F. Eldredge]

I agree with you.


Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
On 6/7/13 8:44 PM, Nathan Mills wrote:
 If we're going for accuracy, corridor proposals should be mapped as a
polygon. They are area features which may someday become linear.

 That said, I don't think that such early proposals belong in the
database at all.

i think they can go in when they can be represented as a relation 
containing
connected ways, and not before that.

richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] Key Proposal wheelchair:toilet

[John F. Eldredge]

In my experience, usually only one stall in a public restroom will have the 
larger size and handrails needed for wheelchair use.  I have only seen a few 
extra-large restrooms which were equipped to handle more than one 
wheelchair-using person at a time.  Thus, it would be useful to be able to tag 
the number of such stalls.


Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
2013/6/7 Christoph Bünte christ...@sozialhelden.de

 Hi everyone,

 we at wheelmap.org want to take our service to the next level by
tagging
 public places wether there is an wheelchair accessible toilet or not.
To
 start the discussion we prepared an key proposal:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wheelchair:toilet

 Please let us know what you think about it.



the proposal looks reasonable at first glance, if you see this as an
attribute to something (and it will definitely be easier to evaluate
this
way). An alternative might be to tag explicitly the toilet and add
wheelchair tags to the toilet.

I checked with tag info and there are already tags in use:

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/toilets
e.g.
wheelchair:*toilets*http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/wheelchair%3Atoilets
*toilets*:wheelchairhttp://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/toilets%3Awheelchair

the suggestion for a toilet attribute on a POI according to
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets is toilets,
that's why I suggest you change the wording in your proposal to plural.
IMHO the most logical way would be toilets:wheelchair=yes/no but
wheelchair:toilets is currently used far more often.

cheers,
Martin




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Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality

[John F. Eldredge]

One thing that would help in the editor software would be, once you select a 
tag, and list the preset values available, to have the option to list the wiki 
descriptions of what those values mean.  This should be optional, and should 
come up in a separate window so you don't lose track of what you are editing.


Frederic Julien fjulie...@yahoo.com wrote:
Dear all,

I'm working on a presentation and interested to hear your thoughts.
What are the top 2-3 changes that could improve OSM data quality? That
could be processes, tools, methods, training, peer review, attributes,
etc.

If this sort of info is available elsewhere let me know.

Looking forward to your answers.

Many thanks,

Frederic



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Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap

[John F. Eldredge]

On 05/24/2013 06:15 AM, Nick Whitelegg wrote:


I don't regularly use iD myself (JOSM user), but, on behalf of its 
developers: negative comments like this are unhelpful and denigrate 
the vast amount of hard work that has gone into producing the editor. 
If you don't like it, complain about it to your friends in private, 
change the code, but do not slag it off on a public mailing list!


Nick

-razor74 radulescu.raz...@gmail.com wrote: -
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
From: razor74 radulescu.raz...@gmail.com
Date: 24/05/2013 09:36AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap

The worst editor ewer. With this will result many damages and
incompatibilities. From newbies ofcourse. Potlatch is the best blend for
advanced users and for new ones with alot of info and very friendly
interface. This is a joke. Take it down before destroyed the existent maps
with alot of hard work on them!



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So, you feel that non-programmers, who have justified reasons to 
complain about the design, such as the silent removal of highway tags, 
should not be able to let their opinion of the bad design be made known?
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap

[John F. Eldredge]

Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:29 PM, John F. Eldredge
  So, you feel that non-programmers, who have justified reasons to
 complain
  about the design, such as the silent removal of highway tags, should
 not be
  able to let their opinion of the bad design be made known?
 
 That's what programmers love (I'm one) : admire my work or provide
 patches or shut up ;-)
 
 Pieren
 
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I also am a programmer, and it helps to have feedback from the users when they 
find a bug or design flaw.

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Re: [OSM-talk] iD, exclusive use of tags

[John F. Eldredge]

Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 8:17 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 dieterdre...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  I just discovered that iD presumes that some tags are exclusive,
 e.g. you
  can't add (at least not via preset) on the same way (line) more than
 one of
  these tags: highway, railway, power but afaik it is common practice
 to use
  railway=tram on the same way as highway=* (in certain
 circumstances).
 
 
 The tram and the highway should be separate ways unless the tram is a
 single track dead-center on the highway.
 
 
 
 
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So, you are saying that if the tram tracks are located in the highway, but 
off-center, then the map should not reflect the ground truth?  I have seen 
numerous streets where there are tram tracks in both directions, and the tracks 
are located in the driving lanes, not in a separate section down the middle of 
the street.

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Re: [Talk-us] Admin boundary level quirk in NYC

[John F. Eldredge]

You might want to take a look at how Virginia is mapped.  Cities in Virginia 
are not considered to be subordinate to counties, even if surrounded on all 
sides by a county.  Towns, on the other hand, are subordinate to, and part of, 
counties.


Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote:
 
   So I propose a different schema:
 
   New York Boroughs: 9
   Cities (incl. NYC): 8
   Counties: 6
 
 and have separate relations for the counties and boroughs (e.g.
 Brooklyn
   and Kings County), sharing the same ways.
 
 Your proposal sounds entirely reasonable to me.  The notion that
 cities
 are contained within a county is baked into the hierarchical
 organization, and something has to give when that isn't true.  Letting
 the hierarchy not line up seems better than choosing different levels.
 
 In the old way, there's the awkward question about how L5 should be
 rendered, and why it should look different than L8, and that's all
 unnnecessary mess.
 
 Your proposal defers the interesting choice to the renderer, which is
 whether one cares about counties or boroughs, but such deferring is in
 my view a feature.
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] misuse of the landuse=forest tag for national forests

[John F. Eldredge]

If you have an area that cannot grow trees, due to altitude, inadequate 
groundwater, or having exposed rock rather than soil (as with many 
mountaintops), then, in what sense is it a managed forest?  I am not talking 
about areas that are temporarily treeless due to the trees having been 
harvested.


stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:
 Please don't confuse land cover with the
 political/jurisdictional and geographical definition of inside the
 boundaries of a national forest.
 
 One more remark. Shouldn't the political/jurisdictional and 
 geographical definition of inside the boundaries of a national 
 forest be defined by the boundary-, protected area-, and 
 park:type=national_forest- tags? Moreover, how can one tag a 
 physical forest (areas with trees present) inside the national 
 forest?
 
 Boundary, yes.  (As Greg Troxel pointed out as one of the three 
 things going on here:  boundaries, landuse and land cover). 
 Protected area, yes.  The park:type tag seems to be a more recent 
 (circa 2009/2010) invention by Apo42, a California-based OSM 
 volunteer who also maps in Austria.  (Being somewhat local to one 
 another, he and I have gone on hikes together and discuss OSM more 
 than occasionally).I'll let Apo speak for himself, but I really 
 like the park:type tag, so I use it extensively.  It seems to be 
 something he started with his CASIL-based California State Park 
 uploads, but it is quite extensible to park:type=county_park, 
 city_park, private_park (and more), so I continue to use that sort of 
 syntax when it makes sense to do so.  However, I also believe the 
 park:type tag to not be widely used outside of California, nor is it 
 well-documented on OSM's wiki pages (to the best of my knowledge).
 
 I do agree with Mike Thompson's statement:  If neither of the two 
 tags being discussed (landuse=forest, natural=wood) are appropriate 
 for tagging a generic area covered by trees (regardless if it is 
 virgin, managed), it would be really helpful to have a tag that 
 could be used for this (i.e. indicate what the *landcover* is).  This 
 information is useful when navigating the back country.  Yet, I 
 continue to believe that a proper landcover=* tag is the right way to 
 do this.  Simultaneously, I think it proper that national forests 
 have a landuse=forest tag, (in addition to proper boundary= and 
 protected_area= tags) even though they MAY or MAY NOT be just 
 trees.  My reasoning:  landuse=forest means a managed forest land, 
 even if not exactly 100% of it is covered by trees.  Such an area 
 that had 50% of its trees cut down (it IS a managed forest!) would 
 STILL be a managed forest, even though at least half of it is not 
 now trees.
 
 What I'm really saying is I agree we could use better landcover 
 tagging.  I'm not alone here.
 
 Wilderness areas are WITHIN national forests and are designated with 
 the leisure=nature_reserve tag.  This was discussed with my email 
 interaction with Troy Warburton of the USFS in Talk-us Digest, Vol 
 64, Issue 1.
 
 Here are the tags I use for National Forests within the jurisdiction 
 of the US Department of Agriculture's Forest Service:
 landuse=forest
 boundary=national_park
 boundary:type=protected_area
 protect_class=6
 protection_title=National Forest
 ownership=national
 name=Name of Forest
 
 And here are the tags I use for Wilderness areas WITHIN National
 Forests:
 leisure=nature_reserve
 boundary=national_park
 boundary:type=protected_area
 protect_class=1b
 protection_title=Wilderness
 ownership=national
 name=Name of Wilderness
 
 Further answering Mike Thompson, I don't think it odd at all that 
 parts of the U.S. National Forests are not treed, for example, parts 
 that are above treeline.  The parts that are still in the forest 
 are still in the forest (which is what landuse=forest implies), 
 even if they are above the treeline and don't have trees.  Yes, it 
 seems confusing, but only if you think landuse=forest implies all 
 trees.  It doesn't:  it implies all managed forest, whether with or 
 without trees.
 
 SteveA
 California
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Airport Tagging

[John F. Eldredge]

Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote:

 On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Rick Marshall
 rick.marsh...@verticalgeo.com wrote:
 
  2.  Who decides the geographical limits of an aerodrome?
 
 If you don't have parcel data from a government GIS department, I
 would go with the fence that surrounds most airports if it's visible
 in the Bing imagery.  That usually takes care of the I'll get into
 trouble if I cross this line sort of questions.
 
 --
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It would probably be prudent to trace the fence location from aerial imagery, 
rather than walk the perimeter with a GPS.  Otherwise, you are likely to find 
yourself under lengthy interrogation by the TSA, under the assumption that the 
mapping was a cover story, and you were really preparing for an attack on the 
airport.

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC updated: OSM Attribution Mark (was: contributor mark)

[John F. Eldredge]

Michal Migurski m...@teczno.com wrote:

 What about “with OSM” instead of “by OSM”?
 
 -mike.
 
 ---
 michal migurski http://mike.teczno.com
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:39 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 
  
  The copyright page is now much better than before and IMHO contains 
 the necessary contents. There are a couple of wording issues that are
 already present in the current version that we should address while
 we're at it (but that is mainly CWG/OWG turf) but nothing major.
  
  I do have a couple of issues with the icon though. First while I'm
 sure we would like to take credit for everything OSMish, doesn't by
 OSM imply the wrong thing? What we want to say is I suspect Data by
 OSM, that naturally would be rather unwiedly. Further there may be a
 potential (legal) issue with using OSM in that way that I need to
 discuss with counsel.
  
  But all in all a nice step forward.
  
  Simon
  
  
  Am 22.04.2013 14:40, schrieb Alex Barth:
  Hello everyone -
  
  I'd love to start pushing again on the OSM attribution mark.
  
  This is an updated proposal based on an initial RFC from earlier
 this year titled Contributor Mark [1, 2]. Sorry for the delay in
 following up with adjustments based on feedback   on the
 original thread. 
  
  Again, the goal of this proposal is to draw more attention to
 OpenStreetMap wherever it's used by introducing a visually compelling,
 linked symbol for placement on OSM-based works and by explaining
 OpenStreetMap better at the place where this symbol links to.
  
  Looking forward to your feedback. I'll also be reaching out to
 corresponding working groups and OSMF to see how we can move this
 forward.
  
  Concretely, this RFC proposes
  
  1. Replace current credit © OpenStreetMap Contributors with a
 visual mark where possible
  2. Update `openstreetmap.org/copyright` to explain better OSM, to
 invite visitors to join and to allow creators of derivative work to
 link back to their sites.
  
  The update to the original RFC brings 4 key changes:  
  
  1. Rename the proposal from 'Contributor Mark' to 'Attribution
 Mark'
  2. A completely redesigned mark, containing the letters OSM
  3. A completely redesigned `/copyright` page, the page the mark
 links to. It is much closer to today's `/copyright`
  4. The mark is an alternative to © OpenStreetMap Contributors.
 Only where the mark can't be used, © OpenStreetMap Contributors may
 be used.
  
  Please read up on all details on the newly created RFC page:
  
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RFC_Attribution_Mark
  
  Also take a look at the repository containing artwork and code:
  
  https://github.com/osmlab/attribution-mark
  
  Alex
  
  --
  
  [1] Initial RFC
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-January/065784.html
  
  [2] Feedback summary
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-January/065860.html
  
  
  
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Or perhaps Data from OSM.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Disappearing nodes from wheelmap.org

[John F. Eldredge]

Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Christoph Bünte
 christ...@sozialhelden.dewrote:
 
 
  Am 18.04.2013 um 13:33 schrieb André Riedel:
 
   Hi,
  
   do you still support only poi nodes instead of areas too (e.g.
  buildings, parks, ...)? If so, one reason could be the change from
 poi
  nodes to better poi areas.
 
  Thanks to Frederik Ramm we also support ways for more than a year
 now. My
  first guess was that there was something wrong on our servers. But
  everything works fine. That's why i think there a conversion from
 one tag
  to another going on. As it is happening all over the world this
 might be
  something with public transport. But i couldn't figure out which.
 
 
 What about relations? Although I'm not sure that would account for all
 of
 those numbers.
 
 
 
   For example:
   Previously tagged node of a restaurant is replaced by a more
 complex
  way. This way represents the whole restaurant building and is of
 course
  tagged with the wheelchair-key.
  
   Next question: Could you show the best entrance to a restaurant,
 if one
  is accessible by a wheelchair and the second one not?
 
  No, we don't. Is this a feature request?
 
 
 Yes and it has been declined before :)
 
 http://wheelmap.uservoice.com/forums/31554-general/suggestions/1157049-support-entrances-to-buildings
 
 And I can see the reasoning for things like restaurants and such being
 more
 confusing but for larger buildings (universities, malls, government
 buildings, etc) it really would be useful.
 
 Toby
 
 
 
 
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I agree that this is a good idea.  Even for smaller buildings, the 
wheelchair-accessible entrance may be on a different side of the building than 
the primary entrance.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why do we have so many registered users with zero edits ?

[John F. Eldredge]

Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:

 
 Am 14.04.2013 20:37, schrieb Werner Hoch:
  Am Sonntag, den 14.04.2013, 23:38 +1000 schrieb Steve Bennett:
  On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch
 wrote:
  Just a further data point. As of the end of last month we had
 edits from
  324'152 unique UIDs, not quite 30% of all accounts (some of the
  changesets are likely to be empty, but the number is still quite a
 bit
  larger than the often quoted 200'000).
  I think the quotet 22 are those mappers that still own an
 active
  osm object. (last editor).
 Yes, the problem is that particularly the smallest editors are the
 ones
 that are most likely to get their complete last edit contribution
 zapped
 by a bot or by a regular edit.
 
  Is there (or could there be?) a graph of contributions against
 number
  of u-el-? Might be interesting also to see whether the number of
 users
  on zero is vastly different to the number of users on one edit, two
  edits etc.
 
 http://www.h-renrew.de/h/osm/osmchecks/03_Statistik/planet/statistic.html
 
  statistic based only on the last editors.
  about 25000 Users only own a single node.
 
 See above this number is probably far to low.
 
  90% of all ways and nodes are last edited by about 7000 users.
  99% by about 3 users.
-- 9% of data, 23000 users
  99.9%  8 Users
-- 0.9% of data, 5 users
  and the rest:
-- 0.1% of data, 14 users
 
 
 Don't forget that we lost another ~40k editors in total and about 15k
 (last editors) in the planet dump due to the licence change.
 
 Simon
 
 
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Well, I know that I, for one, have been active on the mailing lists, but 
haven't done any actual mapping in a while. I hope to get back to it soon, 
however.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[John F. Eldredge]

Vladimir Vyskocil vladimir.vysko...@gmail.com wrote:

 I think it's time to switch to the tagging list !
 
 The tagging scheme that seems preferred in this discussion is the
 following :
 
 - simple named junctions : use junction=yes and name=*
 - complex named junctions with several lanes crossing a different
 points :
   two propositions : 
   - use a relation { type=junction, name=*,  junction role,...}
 referencing all the crossing points between the lanes
   - use a place { tag=junction or crossroads, name=* } on a area
 englobing the crossing points
 
 All right ? What are your opinions on this ?
 
 Vlad.
 
 
 On 27 mars 2013, at 00:22, Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
  Great!
  
  traffic_lights on complex crossroads
  Area or Relation
  I prefer to use relation.
  I'm afraid of effects to routing topology when signals or
 roundabouts
  are written as an area.
  
  As theory, the names of Japanese traffic signals are given to each
  signals, not to a junction.
  (and basically, the signals on a same junction has same names)
  
  
  
  2013/3/27 Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr:
  highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
  http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71686lat=35.61534zoom=18
  
  You'll see that adding names to traffic_lights on complex
 crossroads
  causes the same name to be rendered multiple times in some places:
  http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71825lat=35.61857zoom=18
  
  A better tagging scheme seems necessary as one thing should be in
  the database just once.
  
  If we could avoid relations and use either the junction=yes or a
  place=junction/crossroad (place name are usually meant to be
 rendered
  that's why I'm thinking about it).
  
  Think also about Nominatim... place=* makes more sense for that
 purpose.
  
  
  2013/3/25 Vladimir Vyskocil vladimir.vysko...@gmail.com:
  
  And there are more than 7000 nodes with highway=traffic_signals
 and name=*
  in Tokyo and its suburbs !
  Another country, another solution for the same tagging problem.
  
  Vlad.
  
  --
  Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
  Synthèse du Week-end SOTM-FR à Lyon :
 http://openstreetmap.fr/synthese-sotmfr
  
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  mail: nyamp...@gmail.com
  twitter: @nyampire
  
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Moving this discussion to the tagging list sounds reasonable.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Out of Service Roads

[John F. Eldredge]

Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't access=no implied with any
 construction=* value other than minor?  At least this is the feel I
 got
 from live use as the way mkgmap interprets things.
 
 
 On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com
 wrote:
 
  Clifford Snow writes:
How do you tag roads that are out of service. We have a section
 of
  Widbey
Island that was wiped out by a landslide. It will be out of
 service for
some time.
 
  I agree with the construction tagging, but if the road still
 exists
  but is impassable, and there isn't any current construction going
 on,
  I mark it with access=no. If there are gates, I mark barrier=gate
 (or
  whatever is appropriate).
 
  --
  --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
  Crynwr supports open source software
  521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
  Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog
 
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You often have existing lanes open next to heavy construction.  Not all 
multi-lane roads have each lane mapped as a separate way.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can't unsubscribe

[John F. Eldredge]

Pavel Stelmakh pstelm...@cogniance.com wrote:

 Thanks for answering. Nothing in spam, can you please try to get this
 message from mailing list and tell me if it's received?
 
 On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:26 PM, John F. Eldredge
 j...@jfeldredge.comwrote:
 
  Pavel Stelmakh pstelm...@cogniance.com wrote:
 
   Hi,
  
   confirmation mail doesn't arrive, can someone help please?
  
   Thanks.
 
  Can you check to see if a spam filter program intercepted the
 message?
   Most such programs send the message to a special mailbox or folder,
 then
  delete the message once some time limit is reached.
 
  --
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 than not
  to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria
 

Yes, your message made it to the mailing list.

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Re: [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues

[John F. Eldredge]

JaggedMind jagged+...@cow.zotzed.net wrote:

 On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:37 AM, william skora skorasau...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
 
  Hi,
 
  I was curious us to hear what others have been using to tag music
 venues.
  There's numerous places in my city that hold upwards of 1,000 people
 for
  music concerts (also called 'shows'). In the US, they're indoors,
 serve
  alcohol, and usually only open when there are shows. There's usually
  admittance fees to enter. I'm thinking of places like House of Blues
 (yes,
  there's restaurants adjacent to some of them, but the one i've been
 to is
  separate from the concert venue), (Cleveland places like Beachland
  Ballroom, the Grog Shop), and more famous places like Bowery
 Ballroom.
 
 
 It seems like these would fall under amenity=theatre 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Theatre.
 
 
 
 
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The amenity=theatre tag would apply to some venues, but not all.  In Nashville, 
TN, USA, where I live, a lot of restaurants and bars have live music on at 
least some evenings during the week.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[John F. Eldredge]

Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 2013/2/23 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com:
  I agree that there is a need for this, and I am happy with the
 simplicity of
  using junction=yes and name=*.  If you don't submit a trac request,
 I will,
  but the link to trac is not working for me:
  trac.openstreetmap.org/query?component=mapnikorder=iddesc=1
 
 
 I'd prefer junction!=no instead of junction=yes as this will be more
 compatible with what there already is in the db (e.g.
 junction=roundabout).
 
 cheers,
 Martin
 
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When would junction=no be used?  When one way passes over another on a viaduct 
without actually connecting?

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Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP

[John F. Eldredge]

Dave Hansen d...@sr71.net wrote:

 On 02/11/2013 08:34 AM, Michael Patrick wrote:
  FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty
 cool,
  one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter
 Expert! ;-)
 
 While I admire the resourcefulness, I do question whether we're doing
 the right thing if we are trying to interpret the law in this way.
 We're obviously ill-equipped to do so ourselves.
 
 I know the current turn restriction relations aren't suited for it.
 But, instead of tagging left turn restriction from X to Y shouldn't
 we
 be tagging the pavement has an arrow that says left turn only?
 
 One of those requires interpretation and is subject to the law
 changing
 or being interpreted differently.  The other is only subject to change
 if someone goes out and scrapes the arrow off the pavement.
 
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Well, you are then placing the burden of interpreting the legal meaning of the 
markings on the person who writes the routing software, and who may not even 
live in the country in question.  I think the combination of a local mapper, 
and, if necessary, checking with the government department regulating such 
matters, as was done in this case, is better than the method you proposed.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

[John F. Eldredge]

Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi John
 
 I think some EU countries (and Switzerland) also have this 5 years
 rule.
 But I'm not a professional lawyer.
 If anybody is, then I suggest that he could offer his services to the
 OSMF as a volunteer (e.g. for a 2nd opinion).
 
 Yours, Stefan
 
 
 2013/2/4 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com:
  Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
 
  Having read some more on this issue, I think the board has done the
  right thing. Apologies to anyone offended.
 
  Christopher Woods (IWD) writes:
On 02/02/2013 21:01, Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote:
This discussion is way out of hand. You guys screaming for
  publishing the C+D, didn't you see the answer from SimonPoole? They
  have asked lawyers about advise in publishing it, as well as
 releasing
  more information about it. It is not a sign of weak leadership to
 ask
  for legal advise in a case that can be as hairy as trademark and
  copyright issues.
 
   I'm extremely interested to see what in the notice specifies that
  the TM
   holder believes that they can pursue and control usage when
  mentioned in
proximity of Google services.
 
  Again, without access to the CD, is that in spite of having
 allowed
  generic usage of geocode for the last 12 years since their
 trademark
  was granted, they now claim that geocode in the context of a
 Google
  geocoding URL is a trademark infringement. As Chris says, risible.
 
  Deleting our links to the Google URL is the correct thing to do,
  because there is no way to link to that service without infringing
  their trademark (claim).
 
  My offer to create a non-infringing gateway stands.
 
   Redacting or editing directly as a result of simply receiving a
 CD
  is
   not an ideal first step. Does OSM consider itself to be in breach
 of
 
   something discussed in the CD or that it has actually done
  something
wrong? I unequivocally believe the opposite to be true - and
 that
Geocode Inc. is misrepresenting the situation.
 
  The problem is that it's not OSM infringing the trademark. It's
  *Google*.
 
  If they have, indeed, allowed the generic use of the term geocode
 for 12 years without challenging it, then I believe that, under US
 law, the term is now legally classed as generic, and can be used by
 anyone.  According to
 http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Trademark_infringement, while there is
 no Federal law explicitly stating a statute of limitations, one
 Federal court decided that such cases were subject to the general
 five-year limit for non-capital offenses under Title 18 of the US
 Code.  Usually, the Federal courts follow the precedents set by the
 most similar state case.
 
  --
  John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
  Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
 than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria
 
 
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Well, I should note that I am not a lawyer, either.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria


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