Re: [Talk-ca] Building Canada 2020 initiative

[Pierre Béland]

J'étais au SOTM France en juin. On voit là une organisation forte, très 
développée avec des membres très engagés dans les différentes régions de 
France. Ils ont développé des collaborations avec les autorités locales, ils 
ont des serveurs, offrent différents services tels Osmose, tuiles pour le style 
Humanitaire OSM, serveur Overpass, etc. Dans un tel cas, cela a du sens d'avoir 
une organisation plus structurée. Et des membres capables de s'impliquer et 
être représentatifs des différentes régions.
Mais au Canada, quelle est la situation exactement? Si on se fie aux 
discussions sur talk-ca, on constate peu d'activités. Au Québec entre autres, 
les collaborateurs de Montréal et Québec préfèrent discuter sur leur propre 
groupe de discussion local.
Il me semble prématuré d'incorporer une ONG qui se prétendra pan-canadienne. 
Sinon quelle sera la représentativité de cette ONG, qui la contrôlera ? 

Je penses qu'il faut d'abord développer des organisations locales. Celles-ci 
pourraient ensuite voir l'opportunité de se fédérer au niveau canadien.
Quelques individus ne peuvent pas s'incorporer en utilisant le signe OSM et 
prétendre représentation la communauté OSM du Canada, récolter des fonds au nom 
de la communauté.
Statistique Canada fait un bel énoncé de principe, très évocateur, «Tracer tous 
les immeubles d'ici 2020». Par contre, StatCan n'est pas prêt à s'engager 
malgré ses moyens financiers et expertise. 

Je suis d'accord avec John que c'est un projet irréaliste, que l'on ne pourra 
pas rapidement négocier avec les municipalités pour les licences de données 
ouvertes. Et en avons-nous les moyens?
Et il faudrait plus que cela pour justifier de créer une ONG pan-canadienne.  

 Pierre 


  De : Matthew Darwin <matt...@mdarwin.ca>
 À : talk-ca@openstreetmap.org 
 Envoyé le : vendredi 29 Septembre 2017 10h06
 Objet : Re: [Talk-ca] Building Canada 2020 initiative
   
 Another good reason to create an organization that holds the keys to key OSM 
resources... then it can out-survive all of us. :-) 
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Re: [Talk-ca] Building Canada 2020 initiative

[Matthew Darwin]

Another good reason to create an organization that holds the keys to 
key OSM resources... then it can out-survive all of us. :-)



On 2017-09-29 09:41 AM, James wrote:
I and others can give access to people to create projects on the 
tasking manager. I understand that one person might disapear, i'll 
try not to die in the next 2 years ;)


On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 9:37 AM, john whelan > wrote:


But that is only a single person for a project of this size you
need some sort of team approach.  Although buses are fairly safe
the odd one gets hit by a train and if you happen to be sitting
in the front seat you may not be available to sort things out.

Cheerio John

On 29 September 2017 at 09:33, James > wrote:

To answer you question about who would organise the tasking
manager, I'm willing to do so.

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM, john whelan
> wrote:

A couple of comments:

1. Pierre Beland**
 has identified
95% of contributors only map 6% of the assets.
https://mobile.twitter.com/pierzen/status/910551645498552321

We would need to use those 5% of mappers who do the most
mapping and they have their own agendas and reasons for
mapping. They are more likely to throw their weight
behind something that looks achievable and I'm not sure
this is.

2. I've put up a sample of buildings being mapped from a
mapathon. https://www.jatws.org/johnw/building3.jpg
 as you can
see in my opinion the quality is not suitable for Stats
Canada's use.  Some buildings are grouped together with
others as a single building, others are mapped the wrong
shape or size.  Quite often buildings are omitted. 
There are better examples and there are worse examples

but it is not untypical and it was this experience that
made me suggest the Open Data import route in the first
place.

So Open Data import is better for quality.  Adding tags
to building foot prints is less error prone.

3. There are more than 5,000 municipal governments in
Canada source Stats Can.  It took five years to get the
City of Ottawa to update their Open Data license. 
Treasury Board still hasn't released their Open Data

tool kit for the municipalities.  With good will I
estimate it will take two years to get the Open Data
licenses amended.  Kingston might be a good target. 
With any questions and there will be a number, this

figure can be expected to drift out to three to four
years.  Who is responsible to answer questions, in both
official languages?  Who will make the requests to
municipal governments to adopt a usable Open Data license?

In Ottawa we had the right mix of resources.  We had
enough local mappers to discuss things through which is
part of the import process. We had good will from the
City of Ottawa and they were happy to release building
foot print data which had not been part of their Open
Data so far.  The import process is not simple these
days, it would need  the steps to follow to be
documented and then you get the technical side of the
import.  I'm a fairly experienced mapper and to be
honest I wouldn't attempt the sort of complex import
that was done in Ottawa.  I'm not sure the Ottawa
experience is repeatable more than five thousand times.

We can approach the OSM LWG for an opinion on existing
licenses but they are volunteers and for five thousand
opinions that would take a considerable amount of time
and if the license weren't the TB toolkit ones I
wouldn't even bother.

The community is supposed to be doing this.  Fine but a
project manager and a project plan might make it run
more smoothly.  Data quality will be important so how
will it be verified?  Who will be responsible for
organising task manager tiles for the whole country? Who
will identify the group of mappers who are "local" to a
small municipality?  Remember these have a critical
decision making role to play in the import process.

Have fun.

Cheerio John


On 28 

Re: [Talk-ca] Building Canada 2020 initiative

[James]

I and others can give access to people to create projects on the tasking
manager. I understand that one person might disapear, i'll try not to die
in the next 2 years ;)

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 9:37 AM, john whelan  wrote:

> But that is only a single person for a project of this size you need some
> sort of team approach.  Although buses are fairly safe the odd one gets hit
> by a train and if you happen to be sitting in the front seat you may not be
> available to sort things out.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 29 September 2017 at 09:33, James  wrote:
>
>> To answer you question about who would organise the tasking manager, I'm
>> willing to do so.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM, john whelan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A couple of comments:
>>>
>>> 1. Pierre Beland  has
>>> identified 95% of contributors only map 6% of the assets.
>>> https://mobile.twitter.com/pierzen/status/910551645498552321  We would
>>> need to use those 5% of mappers who do the most mapping and they have their
>>> own agendas and reasons for mapping. They are more likely to throw their
>>> weight behind something that looks achievable and I'm not sure this is.
>>>
>>> 2. I've put up a sample of buildings being mapped from a mapathon.
>>> https://www.jatws.org/johnw/building3.jpg as you can see in my opinion
>>> the quality is not suitable for Stats Canada's use.  Some buildings are
>>> grouped together with others as a single building, others are mapped the
>>> wrong shape or size.  Quite often buildings are omitted.  There are better
>>> examples and there are worse examples but it is not untypical and it was
>>> this experience that made me suggest the Open Data import route in the
>>> first place.
>>>
>>> So Open Data import is better for quality.  Adding tags to building foot
>>> prints is less error prone.
>>>
>>> 3. There are more than 5,000 municipal governments in Canada source
>>> Stats Can.  It took five years to get the City of Ottawa to update their
>>> Open Data license.  Treasury Board still hasn't released their Open Data
>>> tool kit for the municipalities.  With good will I estimate it will take
>>> two years to get the Open Data licenses amended.  Kingston might be a good
>>> target.  With any questions and there will be a number, this figure can be
>>> expected to drift out to three to four years.  Who is responsible to answer
>>> questions, in both official languages?  Who will make the requests to
>>> municipal governments to adopt a usable Open Data license?
>>>
>>> In Ottawa we had the right mix of resources.  We had enough local
>>> mappers to discuss things through which is part of the import process. We
>>> had good will from the City of Ottawa and they were happy to release
>>> building foot print data which had not been part of their Open Data so
>>> far.  The import process is not simple these days, it would need  the steps
>>> to follow to be documented and then you get the technical side of the
>>> import.  I'm a fairly experienced mapper and to be honest I wouldn't
>>> attempt the sort of complex import that was done in Ottawa.  I'm not sure
>>> the Ottawa experience is repeatable more than five thousand times.
>>>
>>> We can approach the OSM LWG for an opinion on existing licenses but they
>>> are volunteers and for five thousand opinions that would take a
>>> considerable amount of time and if the license weren't the TB toolkit ones
>>> I wouldn't even bother.
>>>
>>> The community is supposed to be doing this.  Fine but a project manager
>>> and a project plan might make it run more smoothly.  Data quality will be
>>> important so how will it be verified?  Who will be responsible for
>>> organising task manager tiles for the whole country? Who will identify the
>>> group of mappers who are "local" to a small municipality?  Remember these
>>> have a critical decision making role to play in the import process.
>>>
>>> Have fun.
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28 September 2017 at 16:48, Alasia, Alessandro (STATCAN) <
>>> alessandro.ala...@canada.ca> wrote:
>>>
 Hello all!

 Statistics Canada was a partner of the 2017 HOT Summit held in Ottawa,
 Sept 14-15. In parallel to the summit, Statistics Canada hosted a workshop
 to discuss the possibility of launching a community-led initiative titled
 “Building Canada 2020”.

 The goal and vision of this initiative is simple: *map all buildings
 in Canada on OSM by the year 2020*. The workshop was well attended.
 There were about 50 people from various sectors (federal, academic, civic
 group, and private). This was a preliminary discussion amongst a small
 group of people, but now that broad interest has been confirmed more
 stakeholders need to be involved!

 A short summary of the workshop along with a first draft *Roadmap to
 implementation* has been posted on the OSM Wiki at:
 

Re: [Talk-ca] Building Canada 2020 initiative

[john whelan]

But that is only a single person for a project of this size you need some
sort of team approach.  Although buses are fairly safe the odd one gets hit
by a train and if you happen to be sitting in the front seat you may not be
available to sort things out.

Cheerio John

On 29 September 2017 at 09:33, James  wrote:

> To answer you question about who would organise the tasking manager, I'm
> willing to do so.
>
> On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM, john whelan 
> wrote:
>
>> A couple of comments:
>>
>> 1. Pierre Beland  has identified
>> 95% of contributors only map 6% of the assets.
>> https://mobile.twitter.com/pierzen/status/910551645498552321  We would
>> need to use those 5% of mappers who do the most mapping and they have their
>> own agendas and reasons for mapping. They are more likely to throw their
>> weight behind something that looks achievable and I'm not sure this is.
>>
>> 2. I've put up a sample of buildings being mapped from a mapathon.
>> https://www.jatws.org/johnw/building3.jpg as you can see in my opinion
>> the quality is not suitable for Stats Canada's use.  Some buildings are
>> grouped together with others as a single building, others are mapped the
>> wrong shape or size.  Quite often buildings are omitted.  There are better
>> examples and there are worse examples but it is not untypical and it was
>> this experience that made me suggest the Open Data import route in the
>> first place.
>>
>> So Open Data import is better for quality.  Adding tags to building foot
>> prints is less error prone.
>>
>> 3. There are more than 5,000 municipal governments in Canada source Stats
>> Can.  It took five years to get the City of Ottawa to update their Open
>> Data license.  Treasury Board still hasn't released their Open Data tool
>> kit for the municipalities.  With good will I estimate it will take two
>> years to get the Open Data licenses amended.  Kingston might be a good
>> target.  With any questions and there will be a number, this figure can be
>> expected to drift out to three to four years.  Who is responsible to answer
>> questions, in both official languages?  Who will make the requests to
>> municipal governments to adopt a usable Open Data license?
>>
>> In Ottawa we had the right mix of resources.  We had enough local mappers
>> to discuss things through which is part of the import process. We had good
>> will from the City of Ottawa and they were happy to release building foot
>> print data which had not been part of their Open Data so far.  The import
>> process is not simple these days, it would need  the steps to follow to be
>> documented and then you get the technical side of the import.  I'm a fairly
>> experienced mapper and to be honest I wouldn't attempt the sort of complex
>> import that was done in Ottawa.  I'm not sure the Ottawa experience is
>> repeatable more than five thousand times.
>>
>> We can approach the OSM LWG for an opinion on existing licenses but they
>> are volunteers and for five thousand opinions that would take a
>> considerable amount of time and if the license weren't the TB toolkit ones
>> I wouldn't even bother.
>>
>> The community is supposed to be doing this.  Fine but a project manager
>> and a project plan might make it run more smoothly.  Data quality will be
>> important so how will it be verified?  Who will be responsible for
>> organising task manager tiles for the whole country? Who will identify the
>> group of mappers who are "local" to a small municipality?  Remember these
>> have a critical decision making role to play in the import process.
>>
>> Have fun.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>>
>> On 28 September 2017 at 16:48, Alasia, Alessandro (STATCAN) <
>> alessandro.ala...@canada.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello all!
>>>
>>> Statistics Canada was a partner of the 2017 HOT Summit held in Ottawa,
>>> Sept 14-15. In parallel to the summit, Statistics Canada hosted a workshop
>>> to discuss the possibility of launching a community-led initiative titled
>>> “Building Canada 2020”.
>>>
>>> The goal and vision of this initiative is simple: *map all buildings in
>>> Canada on OSM by the year 2020*. The workshop was well attended. There
>>> were about 50 people from various sectors (federal, academic, civic group,
>>> and private). This was a preliminary discussion amongst a small group of
>>> people, but now that broad interest has been confirmed more stakeholders
>>> need to be involved!
>>>
>>> A short summary of the workshop along with a first draft *Roadmap to
>>> implementation* has been posted on the OSM Wiki at:
>>> *https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Building_Canada_2020*
>>> 
>>>
>>> Everyone that shares the vision of “mapping all buildings in Canada on
>>> OSM by the year 2020” is invited to contribute to the discussion and
>>> the roadmap to implementation. In 

Re: [Talk-ca] Building Canada 2020 initiative

[James]

To answer you question about who would organise the tasking manager, I'm
willing to do so.

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM, john whelan  wrote:

> A couple of comments:
>
> 1. Pierre Beland  has identified
> 95% of contributors only map 6% of the assets.
> https://mobile.twitter.com/pierzen/status/910551645498552321  We would
> need to use those 5% of mappers who do the most mapping and they have their
> own agendas and reasons for mapping. They are more likely to throw their
> weight behind something that looks achievable and I'm not sure this is.
>
> 2. I've put up a sample of buildings being mapped from a mapathon.
> https://www.jatws.org/johnw/building3.jpg as you can see in my opinion
> the quality is not suitable for Stats Canada's use.  Some buildings are
> grouped together with others as a single building, others are mapped the
> wrong shape or size.  Quite often buildings are omitted.  There are better
> examples and there are worse examples but it is not untypical and it was
> this experience that made me suggest the Open Data import route in the
> first place.
>
> So Open Data import is better for quality.  Adding tags to building foot
> prints is less error prone.
>
> 3. There are more than 5,000 municipal governments in Canada source Stats
> Can.  It took five years to get the City of Ottawa to update their Open
> Data license.  Treasury Board still hasn't released their Open Data tool
> kit for the municipalities.  With good will I estimate it will take two
> years to get the Open Data licenses amended.  Kingston might be a good
> target.  With any questions and there will be a number, this figure can be
> expected to drift out to three to four years.  Who is responsible to answer
> questions, in both official languages?  Who will make the requests to
> municipal governments to adopt a usable Open Data license?
>
> In Ottawa we had the right mix of resources.  We had enough local mappers
> to discuss things through which is part of the import process. We had good
> will from the City of Ottawa and they were happy to release building foot
> print data which had not been part of their Open Data so far.  The import
> process is not simple these days, it would need  the steps to follow to be
> documented and then you get the technical side of the import.  I'm a fairly
> experienced mapper and to be honest I wouldn't attempt the sort of complex
> import that was done in Ottawa.  I'm not sure the Ottawa experience is
> repeatable more than five thousand times.
>
> We can approach the OSM LWG for an opinion on existing licenses but they
> are volunteers and for five thousand opinions that would take a
> considerable amount of time and if the license weren't the TB toolkit ones
> I wouldn't even bother.
>
> The community is supposed to be doing this.  Fine but a project manager
> and a project plan might make it run more smoothly.  Data quality will be
> important so how will it be verified?  Who will be responsible for
> organising task manager tiles for the whole country? Who will identify the
> group of mappers who are "local" to a small municipality?  Remember these
> have a critical decision making role to play in the import process.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Cheerio John
>
>
> On 28 September 2017 at 16:48, Alasia, Alessandro (STATCAN) <
> alessandro.ala...@canada.ca> wrote:
>
>> Hello all!
>>
>> Statistics Canada was a partner of the 2017 HOT Summit held in Ottawa,
>> Sept 14-15. In parallel to the summit, Statistics Canada hosted a workshop
>> to discuss the possibility of launching a community-led initiative titled
>> “Building Canada 2020”.
>>
>> The goal and vision of this initiative is simple: *map all buildings in
>> Canada on OSM by the year 2020*. The workshop was well attended. There
>> were about 50 people from various sectors (federal, academic, civic group,
>> and private). This was a preliminary discussion amongst a small group of
>> people, but now that broad interest has been confirmed more stakeholders
>> need to be involved!
>>
>> A short summary of the workshop along with a first draft *Roadmap to
>> implementation* has been posted on the OSM Wiki at:
>> *https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Building_Canada_2020*
>> 
>>
>> Everyone that shares the vision of “mapping all buildings in Canada on
>> OSM by the year 2020” is invited to contribute to the discussion and the
>> roadmap to implementation. In addition, there is still need to discuss how
>> coordination, communication and governance of this initiative can be set in
>> place.
>>
>> One important aspect that needs to be emphasized is that “Building Canada
>> 2020” is not a Statistics Canada project. In fact, it is not properly a
>> project of any sort. It is a vision and an aspirational goal. The hope is
>> that many organizations and contributors working with an open data 

Re: [Talk-ca] Building Canada 2020 initiative

[john whelan]

A couple of comments:

1. Pierre Beland  has identified
95% of contributors only map 6% of the assets.
https://mobile.twitter.com/pierzen/status/910551645498552321  We would need
to use those 5% of mappers who do the most mapping and they have their own
agendas and reasons for mapping. They are more likely to throw their weight
behind something that looks achievable and I'm not sure this is.

2. I've put up a sample of buildings being mapped from a mapathon.
https://www.jatws.org/johnw/building3.jpg as you can see in my opinion the
quality is not suitable for Stats Canada's use.  Some buildings are grouped
together with others as a single building, others are mapped the wrong
shape or size.  Quite often buildings are omitted.  There are better
examples and there are worse examples but it is not untypical and it was
this experience that made me suggest the Open Data import route in the
first place.

So Open Data import is better for quality.  Adding tags to building foot
prints is less error prone.

3. There are more than 5,000 municipal governments in Canada source Stats
Can.  It took five years to get the City of Ottawa to update their Open
Data license.  Treasury Board still hasn't released their Open Data tool
kit for the municipalities.  With good will I estimate it will take two
years to get the Open Data licenses amended.  Kingston might be a good
target.  With any questions and there will be a number, this figure can be
expected to drift out to three to four years.  Who is responsible to answer
questions, in both official languages?  Who will make the requests to
municipal governments to adopt a usable Open Data license?

In Ottawa we had the right mix of resources.  We had enough local mappers
to discuss things through which is part of the import process. We had good
will from the City of Ottawa and they were happy to release building foot
print data which had not been part of their Open Data so far.  The import
process is not simple these days, it would need  the steps to follow to be
documented and then you get the technical side of the import.  I'm a fairly
experienced mapper and to be honest I wouldn't attempt the sort of complex
import that was done in Ottawa.  I'm not sure the Ottawa experience is
repeatable more than five thousand times.

We can approach the OSM LWG for an opinion on existing licenses but they
are volunteers and for five thousand opinions that would take a
considerable amount of time and if the license weren't the TB toolkit ones
I wouldn't even bother.

The community is supposed to be doing this.  Fine but a project manager and
a project plan might make it run more smoothly.  Data quality will be
important so how will it be verified?  Who will be responsible for
organising task manager tiles for the whole country? Who will identify the
group of mappers who are "local" to a small municipality?  Remember these
have a critical decision making role to play in the import process.

Have fun.

Cheerio John


On 28 September 2017 at 16:48, Alasia, Alessandro (STATCAN) <
alessandro.ala...@canada.ca> wrote:

> Hello all!
>
> Statistics Canada was a partner of the 2017 HOT Summit held in Ottawa,
> Sept 14-15. In parallel to the summit, Statistics Canada hosted a workshop
> to discuss the possibility of launching a community-led initiative titled
> “Building Canada 2020”.
>
> The goal and vision of this initiative is simple: *map all buildings in
> Canada on OSM by the year 2020*. The workshop was well attended. There
> were about 50 people from various sectors (federal, academic, civic group,
> and private). This was a preliminary discussion amongst a small group of
> people, but now that broad interest has been confirmed more stakeholders
> need to be involved!
>
> A short summary of the workshop along with a first draft *Roadmap to
> implementation* has been posted on the OSM Wiki at:
> *https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Building_Canada_2020*
> 
>
> Everyone that shares the vision of “mapping all buildings in Canada on OSM
> by the year 2020” is invited to contribute to the discussion and the
> roadmap to implementation. In addition, there is still need to discuss how
> coordination, communication and governance of this initiative can be set in
> place.
>
> One important aspect that needs to be emphasized is that “Building Canada
> 2020” is not a Statistics Canada project. In fact, it is not properly a
> project of any sort. It is a vision and an aspirational goal. The hope is
> that many organizations and contributors working with an open data resource
> (OSM) can coordinate their efforts through a multitude of projects,
> initiatives, and activities towards a common goal that would benefit
> society at large.
>
> My team at Statistics Canada (DEIL) has been working on a pilot project
> with OSM (which was presented at the HOT Summit). We are 

[Talk-ca] Building Canada 2020 initiative

[Alasia, Alessandro (STATCAN)]

Hello all!

Statistics Canada was a partner of the 2017 HOT Summit held in Ottawa, Sept 
14-15. In parallel to the summit, Statistics Canada hosted a workshop to 
discuss the possibility of launching a community-led initiative titled 
"Building Canada 2020".

The goal and vision of this initiative is simple: map all buildings in Canada 
on OSM by the year 2020. The workshop was well attended. There were about 50 
people from various sectors (federal, academic, civic group, and private). This 
was a preliminary discussion amongst a small group of people, but now that 
broad interest has been confirmed more stakeholders need to be involved!

A short summary of the workshop along with a first draft Roadmap to 
implementation has been posted on the OSM Wiki at: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada/Building_Canada_2020

Everyone that shares the vision of "mapping all buildings in Canada on OSM by 
the year 2020" is invited to contribute to the discussion and the roadmap to 
implementation. In addition, there is still need to discuss how coordination, 
communication and governance of this initiative can be set in place.

One important aspect that needs to be emphasized is that "Building Canada 2020" 
is not a Statistics Canada project. In fact, it is not properly a project of 
any sort. It is a vision and an aspirational goal. The hope is that many 
organizations and contributors working with an open data resource (OSM) can 
coordinate their efforts through a multitude of projects, initiatives, and 
activities towards a common goal that would benefit society at large.

My team at Statistics Canada (DEIL) has been working on a pilot project with 
OSM (which was presented at the HOT Summit). We are looking at the possibility 
of a second Statistics Canada project to expand to other cities the work done 
with the pilot in Ottawa and Gatineau. If this happens, this StatCan project 
would contribute to, and align with, the Building Canada 2020 initiative. 
Hopefully this will be but one of many projects and activities contributing to 
the vision. Where possible, we would be happy to coordinate work with other 
organizations or groups that share the vision. We would also be happy to share 
experiences and the tools developed while working with building information on 
OSM.

We look forward to further collaboration with the OSM communities as we move 
forward with the second phase of our project and expand to more cities.

Best regards
Alessandro and DEIL Team


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