Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Minh Nguyen]

Vào lúc 05:42 2023-06-27, Yves via talk đã viết:

That would be again discussing with the proponent, as Brian started.
Taginfo chronology already show one mass edit and revert, best to make 
sure there's not another waste of energy beforehand.


The mass edit and revert were performed by the same mapper, who seems to 
be open to performing the edit again. (If not, I'm sure we can find 
others would be.)


The DWG had requested that Brian restore the 9,500 or so occurrences of 
service=driveway2 until the community could reach consensus on this 
issue after a discussion on one of the mailing lists. [1] The most 
definitive answer that came out of the discussion was a suggestion to 
deal with these ways on a case by case basis, which turned out to be 
aspirational.


After a brief pause, the mapper who introduced these tags continued to 
do so at a steady clip. As far as I can tell, no other user has been 
deliberately adding this tag since the matter came before this list; 
most new occurrences by uninvolved mappers have been the result of 
splitting ways. [2]


The tag's proponent is asserting that removing these tags would squander 
their unparalleled effort. [3] The counterargument has been that adding 
these tags in the first place was and continues to be wasteful and 
misguided.


In my opinion, this is an easy call. We should redo the mass deletion. 
To the extent that this episode reveals any gaps in the tagging 
vocabulary, JaLoo(oo)Nz is invited to put forward a reasonable proposal 
through the usual process and respect the outcome.


[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/125373826
[2] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1wF6
[3] 



--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us



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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Yves via talk]

That would be again discussing with the proponent, as Brian started.
Taginfo chronology already show one mass edit and revert, best to make sure 
there's not another waste of energy beforehand.
Yves 

Le 27 juin 2023 12:46:50 GMT+02:00, Marc_marc  a écrit :
>Le 27.06.23 à 12:27, Yves via talk a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>> Le 25 juin 2023 01:02:04 GMT+02:00, "Brian M. Sperlongano" 
>>  a écrit :
>> 
>>> 
>>> And indeed, nine months later, we see that not only has the work not gotten
>>> done, but while we all squabbled away with our pet views about automated
>>> editing, we find that we agreed to nothing, and the mapper has quietly
>>> continued to add this nonsense tag to the database unabated:
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/service=driveway2#chronology
>>> 
>> 
>> An automated edit or a Maproulette challenge makes no sense in these 
>> conditions.
>
>Could you explain what you think?
>And what solution will you use if neither a mass edition nor an 
>object-by-object edition is suitable in your opinion?
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Since there seems to be community consensus for the removal, I have
notified the main proponent at:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/130249355

And also opened a matching thread on the community forum.

On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 6:07 AM Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 25/06/2023 00:02, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote:
> > And indeed, nine months later, we see that not only has the work not
> > gotten done, but while we all squabbled away with our pet views about
> > automated editing, we find that we agreed to nothing, and the mapper
> > has quietly continued to add this nonsense tag to the database unabated:
> > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/service=driveway2#chronology
> >
> > For the original thread, see:
> >
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2022-September/087734.html
> >
> Has anyone actually mentioned this discussion to the proponent of the
> tag?  If I've got the right user (and I may not have)
> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=741163
> suggests not.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Marc_marc]

Le 27.06.23 à 12:27, Yves via talk a écrit :



Le 25 juin 2023 01:02:04 GMT+02:00, "Brian M. Sperlongano" 
 a écrit :



And indeed, nine months later, we see that not only has the work not gotten
done, but while we all squabbled away with our pet views about automated
editing, we find that we agreed to nothing, and the mapper has quietly
continued to add this nonsense tag to the database unabated:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/service=driveway2#chronology



An automated edit or a Maproulette challenge makes no sense in these conditions.


Could you explain what you think?
And what solution will you use if neither a mass edition nor an 
object-by-object edition is suitable in your opinion?




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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Yves via talk]

Le 25 juin 2023 01:02:04 GMT+02:00, "Brian M. Sperlongano" 
 a écrit :

>
>And indeed, nine months later, we see that not only has the work not gotten
>done, but while we all squabbled away with our pet views about automated
>editing, we find that we agreed to nothing, and the mapper has quietly
>continued to add this nonsense tag to the database unabated:
>https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/service=driveway2#chronology
>

An automated edit or a Maproulette challenge makes no sense in these conditions.
Yves 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Andy Townsend]

On 25/06/2023 00:02, Brian M. Sperlongano wrote:
And indeed, nine months later, we see that not only has the work not 
gotten done, but while we all squabbled away with our pet views about 
automated editing, we find that we agreed to nothing, and the mapper 
has quietly continued to add this nonsense tag to the database unabated:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/service=driveway2#chronology

For the original thread, see: 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2022-September/087734.html


Has anyone actually mentioned this discussion to the proponent of the 
tag?  If I've got the right user (and I may not have) 
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=741163 
suggests not.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Jun 25, 2023, 03:08 by marc_m...@mailo.com:

> Le 25.06.23 à 01:02, Brian M. Sperlongano a écrit :
>
>> nine months later, we see that not only has the work not gotten done, but 
>> while we all squabbled away with our pet views about automated editing, we 
>> find that we agreed to nothing, and the mapper has quietly continued to add 
>> this nonsense tag to the database unabated:
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/service=driveway2#chronology
>>
>
> I don't remember anyone opposing this mechanical edit but "prefer 
> maproulette/osmose  given the number is quite manageable".
> I don't remember anyone opposing the goal of this mechanical edit (get rid of 
> highwway=service2)
>
> if someone has objected, take their opinion into account by exluding
> the area that this contributor is willing todo for a given lapse of time.
> in the meantime perform the operation outside the contributor's "manual zone".
>
> after "a certain period of time", I think it is reasonable to consider that 
> the objection has been overcome...
> I even think that this "a certain period of time" has already elapsed :
> no one is doing this on a case-by-case basis to add a precise value
> to replace this nonsense, as the chronology graph clearly shows.
>
> so, imho, go ahead next week (or 2) unless someone suddenly start
> obecting and doing it himself case-by-case
>
Given that this tag name is misleading, conflicts with established and
useful tags, is unclear, poorly defined if defined at all, it is highly 
confusing
and its existence is based on someone misunderstanding OSM tagging 
and Florida law and a lot of effort was taken to communicate with
its promoter:

- I support removal of all its presence
- given scale of damage it makes sense to do it with an automated edit
(especially as despite declaration noone reviewed it manually, at least on
scale necessary to bring numbers down)

Maybe it would be useful to check whether this tags were added to
ways without service=* tags or have they removed valid service=* values

But overall just mass removing it would be helpful already.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Warin]

On 5/9/22 17:10, Minh Nguyen wrote:

Vào lúc 09:57 2022-09-03, Tomas Straupis đã viết:

2022-09-03, št, 19:17 Mateusz Konieczny via talk rašė:
as sole user of service=driveway2 declared that they are using it 
for all

highway=service where no other service=* value fits, it can be cleanly
removed fully automatically without any review


   If so and "driveway2" was added manually, then "driveway2" means
"checked, no value fits".



The value 'driveway2' does not convey this 'information'.

Possibly the value 'unknown' would be better.

However it would be best if new values that convey the truth would be best.


Example a parking entry/exit road (not within the parking area)? 
service=passage ??? In fact this value looks like it may fit the 
driveway2 description ...



However I normally just extend the parking_aisle to cover it - less work.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Marc_marc]

Le 25.06.23 à 01:02, Brian M. Sperlongano a écrit :
nine months later, we see that not only has the work not 
gotten done, but while we all squabbled away with our pet views about 
automated editing, we find that we agreed to nothing, and the mapper has 
quietly continued to add this nonsense tag to the database unabated:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/service=driveway2#chronology 


I don't remember anyone opposing this mechanical edit but "prefer 
maproulette/osmose  given the number is quite manageable".
I don't remember anyone opposing the goal of this mechanical edit (get 
rid of highwway=service2)


if someone has objected, take their opinion into account by exluding
the area that this contributor is willing todo for a given lapse of time.
in the meantime perform the operation outside the contributor's "manual 
zone".


after "a certain period of time", I think it is reasonable to consider 
that the objection has been overcome...

I even think that this "a certain period of time" has already elapsed :
no one is doing this on a case-by-case basis to add a precise value
to replace this nonsense, as the chronology graph clearly shows.

so, imho, go ahead next week (or 2) unless someone suddenly start
obecting and doing it himself case-by-case



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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed bulk removal of service=driveway2

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 12:00 PM Tobias Knerr  wrote:

> On 03.09.22 at 12:52, Simon Poole wrote:
> > Anyway IMHO this would seem to make more sense as a maproulette
> > challenge or osmose warning than a bulk edit given the number is quite
> > manageable and at least some of the objects can probably be mapped to
> > one of the "proper" subtypes.
>
> Perfect is the enemy of good and insisting on doing it manually will
> just result in the work not getting done.
>
> I support doing this as an automated edit. Anyone who wants to set up a
> Maproulette task to inspect all ways that were previously tagged
> service=driveway2 is welcome to do so. This way, if the task doesn't get
> done, at least it won't have prevented the removal of a nonsensical and
> confusing value from the database.
>

And indeed, nine months later, we see that not only has the work not gotten
done, but while we all squabbled away with our pet views about automated
editing, we find that we agreed to nothing, and the mapper has quietly
continued to add this nonsense tag to the database unabated:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/service=driveway2#chronology

For the original thread, see:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2022-September/087734.html
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