Re: [TCP] TechCommPros mailing list

2006-11-13 Thread John Posada
ssociated with our profession. Is having 10X the traffic about it not worse than the instance of it happening? Can we get past that there is another list and let the lists get on with doing their thing? John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with y

Re: [TCP] Hello

2006-11-14 Thread John Posada
se rate of the group), letters of recommendation, and samples. Oh, well..their loss. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is." ___ Are

Re: [TCP] What do you like about TW? ( was: speaking to a college group)

2006-11-16 Thread John Posada
> > What do others find satistying about > > Technical Writing as a career? I make $100,000.00 sitting on my butt. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually know

Re: [TCP] What do you like about TW? ( was: speaking to a collegegroup)

2006-11-16 Thread John Posada
--- "Jones, Donna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > -John Posada wrote:- > > > > What do others find satistying about > > > > Technical Writing as a career? > > > > I make $100,000.00 sitting on my butt. > > > LOL!!! I ca

Re: [TCP] documentation as flowcharts

2006-11-24 Thread John Posada
rework a section of the diagram, then document it accurately in the manual. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is." ___ Are you a

Re: [TCP] documentation as flowcharts

2006-11-24 Thread John Posada
nt crammed into a flowchart box and you don't have to have a one-to-one relationship between a written step and a box. In fact, in the example I gave earlier, there were probably three flowchart elements for each written documentation step. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think

Re: [TCP] Fwd: TCP Site - Want a Wiki?

2006-11-28 Thread John Posada
d no purpose for a wiki in the contenxt of this list other than to fragment this list. What would the wiki give us that we we are mising? Unless someone can give me a current shortcoming that the wiki can fill, I won't be participating in it. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think

Re: [TCP] ADMIN TCP Site - Want a Wiki?

2006-11-28 Thread John Posada
l-defined and > understood. Plenty of professions already use them to vet best I have not seen that definition. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is." ___

[TCP] Are job postings allowed here?

2006-11-28 Thread John Posada
My department has an openning and we need to fill this before the end of the year. If job postings are allowed, I'll include more information. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what

[TCP] Technical Writer position in White Plains, NY...must fill by end of year.

2006-11-28 Thread John Posada
are about 35 minutes from NYC by commuter train and walkable from the train station. It's a good gig...I came in from the cold after 18 years of consulting. This will happen fast...we must fill it by end of year. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite ho

Re: [TCP] Technical Writer position in White Plains, NY...must fill by end of year.

2006-11-28 Thread John Posada
BTW...go through me and I can fast-track it. Go through the normal routes and we may never even see it before the end of the year, at which point it is too late. --- John Posada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Thanks for asking!! > > My department at EMC in White Plains NY is

Re: [TCP] ADMIN TCP Site - Want a Wiki? -- What you really mean is Want a Blog?

2006-11-28 Thread John Posada
ete it. > you at the XML conference? I hope you're at least subscribed! I > just I don't know if I am or not. If I am, I subscribed, but then because that model doesn't work for me, I probably stopped because I cannot recall if I did and I haven't been there in my recoll

Re: [TCP] ADMIN TCP Site - Want a Wiki?

2006-11-29 Thread John Posada
at the discusion is going on for too long or that they've been offended and their feathers have been ruffled. I guess that since they don't have interest in it, nobody else should. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you

Re: [TCP] ADMIN TCP Site - Want a Wiki?

2006-11-29 Thread John Posada
tions that are appropriately > decided by a > designated authority (style guide, for example) would not occur on > the list, > while expansive exchanges on other issues might proceed. > > Bonnie Granat > 617-319-7461 > http://www.GranatEdit.com > > > -Original Messa

Re: [TCP] ADMIN TCP Site - Want a Wiki?

2006-11-29 Thread John Posada
I don't have a problem with that...as long as any further discussion of it comes back to the list and doesn't stay on the wiki. --- Dana Worley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wednesday, November 29, 2006, John Posada wrote: > > > Does that mean that the start

Re: [TCP] ADMIN TCP Site - Want a Wiki?

2006-11-29 Thread John Posada
People, being people, will try. --- Bill Swallow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > John, that's just it. Wiki's aren't discussion tools. > > On 11/29/06, John Posada <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I don't have a problem with that...as long as any furt

Re: [TCP] Anyone use LinkedIn?

2006-12-19 Thread John Posada
--- Bill Swallow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I use LinkedIn but have not used it for recruitment or job hunting > purposes as of yet. Me too/me either John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually k

Re: [TCP] Creeping Deadlines

2007-01-10 Thread John Posada
> Managers just have no clue what such changes mean in > a controlled document environment, especially when changing > from total chaos into control. It's just an alien concept > to them and there's no sense kicking and screaming about it. > Managers aren't supp

Re: [TCP] Creeping Deadlines

2007-01-10 Thread John Posada
likely to be issues for us. > A manager who just agrees to changes without considering the > impact on any of her staff is going to have a lot > of staff turnover, and wonder why. > > John Posada wrote: > > Managers aren't supposed to...we are. > > >>

Re: [TCP] Creeping Deadlines

2007-01-10 Thread John Posada
executives who haven't a clue what > their staffs will have to do to make their decisions work > talk for a while behind closed doors and then the new > requirements are communicated in some broadcast > email that your immediate manager had no more idea > was coming than you d

Re: [TCP] Creeping Deadlines

2007-01-10 Thread John Posada
ine. If I can do it, I just do it. Only if I can't do it do I make it known. And yes, with three meetings a day, sometimes something comes down without a hint...not often, but it does, and I deal with it. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite hones

Re: [TCP] Creeping Deadlines

2007-01-10 Thread John Posada
pretty much my entire point on what should happen. > Only in my wildest fantasies do all the decisisions made go > as I recommend, or get adjusted to suit documentation issues. > > Gene Kim-Eng John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you,

Re: [TCP] resumes on job boards

2007-01-11 Thread John Posada
he best. In fact, I think my perm position here at EMC came through Dice. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is." __ Author Help fi

Re: [TCP] Creeping Deadlines

2007-01-11 Thread John Posada
ct switch on a command line or in an INI file could be the difference betwen monitoring your PC and monitoring 20,000 network elements. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've ne

Re: [TCP] Creeping Deadlines

2007-01-11 Thread John Posada
> 1) It's an example. I'm amazed how drawn to nits we can be at > times. The quality of what we produce and the success of the result can be determined by a nit. It's a switch we cannot always turn on and off. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, t

Re: [TCP] resumes on job boards

2007-01-11 Thread John Posada
ry, there's always 123 Main Street, 212-555-1212, 123-45-6789, and Acme Mfg. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is." __ Aut

Re: [TCP] Docs as Sales Tools [was Creeping Deadlines]

2007-01-11 Thread John Posada
UCH a major issue and requirement. Except our end user is not Matilda, unless she's one of the people in the network operations center. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you&#x

Re: [TCP] Communication and behavior

2007-01-16 Thread John Posada
. You could mention to your managent your objections, but if s/he doesn't do anything about it, get used to it. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually

Re: [TCP] Communication and behavior

2007-01-16 Thread John Posada
ng you're > wondering how things work when you *are* the boss and have > determined John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is." _

Re: [TCP] Enterprise level CMS and TMS

2007-01-18 Thread John Posada
What is TMS? --- Bill Swallow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No, this is specifically information CMS, not source/version > control. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually know

Re: [TCP] Using an internal blog for development updates

2007-01-18 Thread John Posada
> ...For the last two major releases, our documentation was > ready for press before the product CDs were ready to ship. Sean...doesn't that go without sayimg? John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never ac

Re: [TCP] Using an internal blog for development updates

2007-01-18 Thread John Posada
erious was discovered, we update the appropriate documentation and place that on Powerlink. To make a long story short, all docs except Installation and RN must be ready 2 weeks before GA and Installation and RN on the GA date. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be qu

Re: [TCP] Using an internal blog for development updates

2007-01-18 Thread John Posada
How do YOU address the period between the cutting of the gold master CD to the availability of the distribution CDs by manufacturing? --- "Brierley, Sean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A freeze. How quaint. > > -Original Message- > From: John Pos

Re: [TCP] Learning to type (Was: equipment for the job)

2007-02-06 Thread John Posada
be wall and says " wow, you type fast." My response was that if every third keystroke wasn't the backspace key, I'd actualy get some work done. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is th

Re: [TCP] Webinars through Vasont

2007-02-07 Thread John Posada
laims of "technical > difficulties." I have the feeling that they considered it my > problem, > not theirs. That's why I was wondering if anyone else has the same > problems. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is tha

Re: [TCP] FrameMaker product manager has a blog

2007-02-16 Thread John Posada
't we ever hear from anyone at Adobe prior to the day software is released." > >...from my perspective... Gee...I'm surprised :-) John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you

Re: [TCP] ranting STC RE: What did you learn when youparticipatedin the

2007-02-23 Thread John Posada
th what I want to listen to and I'm finding that others want to listen to the same things. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is." _

Re: [TCP] ranting STC RE: What did you learn when youparticipatedinthe

2007-02-23 Thread John Posada
y customer complaint that I COULD NOT EVEN ENJOY READING IT. Well...THEY'll see...I'm gonna read it and be BORED! THAT will teach them. Dori...there is a solution to your problem with absolutely no impact to anyone else. Get your glasses checked. John Posada Senior Technical Writer &qu

Re: [TCP] ranting STC RE: What did you learn when you participated in the

2007-02-27 Thread John Posada
chnical writing asociation that has rolled out a certification program. I see it being taken a little more seriously than I've seen in the past, so I'm gonna see where it goes and make myself available if anyone needs any grunt work done on this. John Posada Senior Technical Writer &quo

Re: [TCP] ranting STC RE: What did you learn when you participated in the

2007-02-27 Thread John Posada
r Bangalore?" and you don't want his followup question to be "Why are you sweating?" John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is." _

Re: [TCP] ranting STC RE: What did you learn when you participated in the

2007-02-27 Thread John Posada
a Word skillset. Example...when I was taking my MCSE courses, the second one was more on TCP/IP than OS. Of course it meant working with the Windows OS...what are you going to work with...notepads? If someone wanted to, they could very well port the same certification to Linux or UNIX. John Posada

Re: [TCP] certification (was: ranting STC)

2007-02-27 Thread John Posada
chool and has no real-world technical writing experince." John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is." __ Author Help files and crea

Re: [TCP] certification (was: ranting STC)

2007-02-28 Thread John Posada
er day, just as someone with a CPA designation is not going to be happy procesing A/P invoices day after day. Certification is for the writer who wants to be brought into an environment that requires a wide range of skills. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quit

Re: [TCP] certification (was: ranting STC)

2007-02-28 Thread John Posada
SMEs, > *and* the references -- or else expect to get entry-level pay > and benefits. Yes...and let's add corroboration by an independent third party > Man, I have *got* to go buy that garlic... I didn't start this thread. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I thin

Re: [TCP] pseudoADMIN STC and Certification

2007-02-28 Thread John Posada
saw no heat and I wouldn't call less than 24 hours as extended. > How about a TCP-Offline blog? Does that make any sense? I think it No > Thanks for listening. I have no problemn with listening. Notice I haven't asked you to take your thoughts offline John Posada Senior Tech

Re: [TCP] certification (was: ranting STC)

2007-02-28 Thread John Posada
For writers to produce the total package, you want a writer WITH the total package; training and experience. > It's a mixed bag. OTJ experience without training can reinforce > misconceptions and bad practices. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be q

Re: [TCP] Titles Revisited

2007-03-05 Thread John Posada
cannot make as much, maximum, as the maximum for someone designated "Senior Technical Writer". Titles really do make a difference, no matter how glib we want to be about the answer. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest wit

Re: [TCP] Titles Revisited

2007-03-05 Thread John Posada
;re a "Technical Writer" or a "Text Engineer" or a "Font > Fondler". A Senior Font Fondler will likely be making more than a > Entry Level Font Fondler, unless there's some major overlap in the > salary ranges. > > On 3/5/07, John Posada <[EM

Re: [TCP] samples of online help formats ...

2007-03-09 Thread John Posada
t and leave information presentation to those who know something about it. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." __ Author Help files and create printed documentation w

Re: [TCP] Appropriate humor in tech comm

2007-04-19 Thread John Posada
In the column of the first page of each section I included a quote, usualy similar to the following quotes: "I don't drink...wine" Count Dracula "He was a wise man who invented beer." Plato "24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case. Coincidence?" Ste

Re: [TCP] Need ideas for new opportunity

2007-04-20 Thread John Posada
will > require me to be a full-fledged member of the management > staff. It's also an exciting opportunity, and I would still > be able to work out of my home Follow your instincts, and yes, it does seem like a good opportunity. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They sa

Re: [TCP] Appropriate humor in tech comm

2007-04-20 Thread John Posada
or 9 hours. Since it was internal documentation, we DID include the suggestion to go home, have a glass of wine, see the kids, then come back 9 hours later. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." ___

Re: [TCP] Question on 2 column layouts

2007-06-05 Thread John Posada
he says. Sue...it's just a document. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." __ Author Help files and create printed documentation with Doc-To-Help. New release adds Team

Re: [TCP] Question on 2 column layouts

2007-06-05 Thread John Posada
> And it's not just a document. It's a document out of > AuthorIT Why should she HAVE to care what the authoring tool is? John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." _

[TCP] Wierd browser behavior

2007-06-07 Thread John Posada
his target) opens in back of the source page. She then has to minimize or move the source page to see the target page. She knows it has not always done it this way but doesn't remember what she might have been doing when this first happened. Anyone ever see this and know how to make it stop

Re: [TCP] employment update

2007-06-11 Thread John Posada
I don't think rudness has anything to do with it. In today's society where everyone is looking to sue everyone, the less you put on paper the less chance someone will have to pass it to their lawyers.. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals.

Re: [TCP] So is the "boss" always right?

2007-06-13 Thread John Posada
ur principles and quit? Nobody is always right. My only interest is that whatever decision s/he makes, it appears to be in the best interest of the company/me/product and that when the boss is wrong, s/he doesn't have a problem with admitting it. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They s

Re: [TCP] Back On Topic

2007-07-09 Thread John Posada
are going to make up the content that doesn't exist in the specs. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." __ Author Help files and create printed documentat

Re: [TCP] How long should a resume be?

2007-08-01 Thread John Posada
> 1. How long is your resume? Five pages > 2. In your opinion, is there a maximum length a resume > for someone in our field should be? Long enough to include what you want to say and not one line longer. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. M

Re: [TCP] How long should a resume be?

2007-08-01 Thread John Posada
, the longest was three months, and I was being picky, so why fix something that ain't broke. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." __ Author Help files and creat

Re: [TCP] How long should a resume be?

2007-08-01 Thread John Posada
> Why not just replace whatever's in your five-page resume with THAT > paragraph? It's also not nearly complete. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." - Original Message From: Andre

Re: [TCP] How long should a resume be?

2007-08-01 Thread John Posada
> Why not just replace whatever's in your five-page resume with THAT > paragraph? Seriously? Not enough content for the HR and agency search engines to grab onto. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good.&q

Re: [TCP] How long should a resume be?

2007-08-01 Thread John Posada
> Ah yes, we can't forget about buzzword bingo can we... which you need > to be able to play with every resume (otherwise it may never get past > initial screening). I don't make the rules :-) John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is

Re: [TCP] How long should a resume be?

2007-08-01 Thread John Posada
the UNIX experience, moved me up several notches...some of our apps are installed on UNIX, nowhere was UNIX mentioned. So, no...between real-life instances where a very detailed resume got me gigs, vs several people saying "I don't like resumes longer than two pages", I'l

Re: [TCP] How long should a resume be?

2007-08-02 Thread John Posada
oject. Where did this 2-page standard come from, anyway? Is the person behind a 2 page resume also automatically a more qualified writer than one with a 3 page resume? John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." __

Re: [TCP] How long should a resume be?

2007-08-02 Thread John Posada
you stop reading and make the call. If you aren't sure, you can check further to see the person has a particular skill that rings your bell. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." ___

Re: [TCP] Friday nuttiness...

2007-08-21 Thread John Posada
ll is coming in, but I will check it's called ID and if it's important, I will excuse myself from the table and answer it. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." __

Re: [TCP] Scrumming blog

2007-09-13 Thread John Posada
> Doesn't the word "Scrum" sound disgusting? I thought the Agile process > by itself left a bad enough taste in my mouth, but "Agile scrum" sounds > even worse. Ick! :-) It's the perfect word for what it is. However, you have to be familiar with Rugby

Re: [TCP] OT Vent re: STC

2007-11-10 Thread John Posada
hen you chose to not renew, you lost the platform. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. So far, so good." __ Author Help files and create printed documentation with Doc-To-Help. N

Re: [TCP] OT Vent re: STC

2007-11-11 Thread John Posada
r withdrawl as complaints later after you leave. You get involved, you push for change. You withdraw, you watch from the sidelines I could go back and forth on the rest of the issues, but I think you aren't going to agree with my logic. Therefore, I'll just say that I maintain my positi

Re: [TCP] OT Vent re: STC

2007-11-12 Thread John Posada
> Last I heard, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. And > until any of us have walked in Paula's shoes, I think it's plenty > disrespectful to discredit her opinion. You know what they say about opinions. > Paula was very active in STC, and very vocal about her issues. But STC neve

Re: [TCP] OT Vent re: STC

2007-11-12 Thread John Posada
> Last I heard, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. And > until any of us have walked in Paula's shoes, I think it's plenty > disrespectful to discredit her opinion. You know what they say about opinions. > Paula was very active in STC, and very vocal about her issues. But STC neve

Re: [TCP] OT Vent re: STC

2007-11-12 Thread John Posada
> As far as *my* right to criticize STC, you baffle me. I was a member of > STC for several years; eventually, I quit. Are you saying that I > shouldn't share my experiences with other TWs? There's a difference between being constructive and destructive when you do it.

Re: [TCP] Does STC only care about itself?

2007-11-12 Thread John Posada
ey should promote the skills of technical writing to the people who use us. As corporations use more writers, those writers will turn around and make the Society stronger. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "They say everyone needs goals. Mine is to live forever. S

Re: [TCP] Telecommuting is mostly positive

2007-11-26 Thread John Posada
> every day. It is a shame, however, that many of us are still fighting > the fingers-on-keyboard vs. are-we-working-or-not battle. Yikes. Where ARE these companies. I've contracted for 18 years at over 12 gigs and including those 12 and

[TCP] [Announcement] NYMetro STC Meeting Nov 29th on FM8 and Technical Communications Suite

2007-11-26 Thread John Posada
i=f32f2124-8768-47c4-962e-a861c73df147 or contact John Posada ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) __ Author Help files and create printed documentation with Doc-To-Help. New release adds Team Authoring Support, enhanced Web-based help technology and PDF output. Lea

[TCP] Vendors! Exibit at NYMetro STC chapter meeting

2007-11-30 Thread John Posada
unce the meeting. We do two notifications per month of about 450 addresses (350 are members). We usually get 30-40 to a meeting, but the number has slowly been increasing. There would be a cost and we can discuss that. John Posada NYMetro STC Chapter Preside

Re: [TCP] The flight from certification

2008-01-04 Thread John Posada
t > people appointed despite being incompetent, or for political or > nepotistic reasons. John Posada __ Author Help files and create printed documentation with Doc-To-Help. New release adds Team Authoring Support, enhanced Web-based help techno

Re: [TCP] Documentum

2008-02-27 Thread John Posada
ocumentum vendor says. The problem is, "a good program to use" can mean different things to different people. You may only need 10% of the integration reqiurements, and someone else may need 90% of the integration requirements. BTW...speaking for the Documentum group of my company (we o

Re: [TCP] Documentum

2008-02-27 Thread John Posada
FM documents have some characteristics that are different than Word that add a CMS twist. From a CMS perspective, FM documents resemble webs more than documents. Each .fm file can have dependencies on graphics and text inserts that are in lower directories. To integrate an FM file in a CMS systrem,

Re: [TCP] [stclwrsig-l] Justifying STC

2008-03-19 Thread John Posada
08, Suzette Leeming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I get more out of this list (and a couple of others) than I've ever gotten > from STC. I like your point that I can always attend a meeting as a > non-member. I'll keep tha

Re: [TCP] [stclwrsig-l] Justifying STC

2008-03-21 Thread John Posada
money if you > don't get anything for it.Or "perceive" you don't. Which is much the same > thing. > > ...sue > > > John Posada > Senior Technical Writer > NYMetro STC President and Program Chair > > - Said the Zen master to the hot dog vendor "

Re: [TCP] [stclwrsig-l] Justifying STC

2008-03-21 Thread John Posada
gs when they don't see the support from the people they are trying to serve, and the best indicaror is membership. > If you could join locally withoiut having to join the national organization, I'd reconsider. BTW...there is nothing from stopping a chapter from doing th