Alex,
My first mission critical app was written in SuperCard! It was a Jumbotron
display controller for the NBA called JIVES and it controlled the big
screen TV's for NBA teams. As many advertisers use the Jumbotron, $$$ were
at stake if it didn't work properly. In over 5 years of use, to my
On Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 06:44 PM, Dar Scott wrote:
Setting a stack's password property can destroy binary data, so care
must be taken to not do that or to store save the data in a safe form.
This seems to be OK in the last few versions.
Dar Scott
If there were a version-control plugin for runrevI would surely be a
customer!
I have a simple model I developed for managing stack files on a server. It
could probably be extended to manage items down to the object/script level.
But my solution is exclusive to one user at a time: stacks are
For the most part, this is _the_ icky part about version control.
When it comes to CVS, it will attempt to merge their changes, using
some sort of line-by-line analysis of their code. If they each
manipulated different functions, for example, they are in the clear. If
their changes overlap,
Le 10 févr. 04, à 01:00, Richard Gaskin a écrit :
Brian Yennie wrote:
I have no idea how I would function on a team xTalk project. Previous
threads here have discussed CVS, bug tracking, group projects... and
as
far as I can tell all of those things are non-existent. They all make
my life many
Alex wrote:
If one were using a filesystem representation, then it's probably an
external requirement (i.e. not self-imposed) because the connected VC
system uses a filesystem. A VC being for example Subversion, the newer
CVS like system. Most VC systems are based on files and filesystems.
I think Alex's positioning of Rev is fair but in my view not in any
respect damaging. Let me put this another way. You could be a
programmer in a huge enterprise or in a small business, possibly
your own. Where have you chosen to work? Then choose the right tool
for what you are doing and
On 10 Feb 2004, at 16:03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:59:28 +
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: version control system (was mission critical apps)
To: How to use Revolution [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID:
OF1CFCA6CB.BFC249FD-ON80256E36.004F5AEF
[EMAIL
Wouter wrote
How is this version control supposed to work?
If an xml file is used to store the ripped stack then opening the
stack files
directly for a binary read and storing it in a custom properties could
also be an option?
I'm sorry Wouter, but I don't understand your question. Could you
On 10 Feb 2004, at 20:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:12:32 +
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: version control system (was mission critical apps)
To: How to use Revolution [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID:
OFEFB93489.5B23C271-ON80256E36.00606DAE
[EMAIL
Wouter wrote
opening stacks from binary data stored in custom properties is
much faster than reconstructing them from xml
Hi Wouter,
I agree. But I think for the kind of VCS/integration projects which I
imagine, then the speed would be a suitable trade-off for the flexibility
of being able
On Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 05:33 PM, Wouter wrote:
Anyway opening stacks from binary data stored in custom properties is
much faster than reconstructing them from xml.
I have been pondering approaches like this.
Setting a stack's password property can destroy binary data, so care
must be
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 23:09:01 -0700
From: Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide
Again: formalize it and be able to explain it to managers and other
programmers. Make a case study for runrev to post on their website. Or
write a HOW
Alex,
You bring up many excellent points...but I really thing you miss some big
ones.
1) Your inability to answer a question about messaging does not make RR
unfit for work in the Enterprise. Not that I'm saying you aren't smart about
these things, I know just the opposite is true, just looking
Alex Rice wrote:
The questions I intended to bring up were:
1) In a technical interview, or when trying to sell an xtalk solution
to corporate IT dept, you may run into someone who challenges the
xtalk/smalltalk messaging model. I described in a previous post that
interview where the Java
Richard Gaskin wrote:
How many times does an IT request get delivered long after it was
useful?
How many in-house apps get deployed but never used because it's hard
to make
great interfaces quickly in most other tools? How many projects are
over
budget?
How many programs have you all written
On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 10:35 AM,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What is the argument against the xTalk messaging model?
Richard,
In most any other dev environment, the only messages your app gets
are mouse and keyboard events, and possibly network events/messages --
otherwise you are in
Frank Leahy wrote:
In most any other dev environment, the only messages your app gets
are mouse and keyboard events, and possibly network events/messages --
otherwise you are in control of everything else, from what gets drawn
on the screen to what user interaction occurs.
...requiring you
On Feb 9, 2004, at 4:16 AM, Frank Leahy wrote:
Richard wrote:
What is the argument against the xTalk messaging model?
I'll keep repeating it: the argument is you don't know at until runtime
if the message goes where you think it will go. One way to state it is
throwing a message out for some
On Feb 9, 2004, at 12:46 AM, Chipp Walters wrote:
1) Your inability to answer a question about messaging does not make RR
unfit for work in the Enterprise.
I didn't mean to imply that. I said: I mean where $, property, or
safety is actually at stake. ... It's a legitimate question, issue, and
On Feb 9, 2004, at 2:11 AM, Ian Wood wrote:
How many programs have you all written quickly in Revolution that
would have taken much too long with another tool/language?
Like I said to Chipp: Don't appeal to programmer productivity. I
already know runrev is the most productive tool for me. That's
2) There are many factors which go into tool selection. Unfortunately for
RR, there are many which would seem to disqualify it before even starting.
Good points
Alex and original poster: Don't give me an Andy Ihnatko
generalities, list these factors.
--
Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software
On Feb 9, 2004, at 9:00 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:
Alex and original poster: Don't give me an Andy Ihnatko
generalities, list these factors.
http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2004-February/
030969.html
--
Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com
I asked: How are you going to sell xtalks in a corporate
environment where reliability and correctness is _more important
than programmer productivity_ ?
Alex,
You're probably not; so those corporate environments, which never
have never will embrace cutting-edge technology until it is passe
challenges for mission critical apps.
By it's very nature, runrev presents some unique challenges for
producing reliable, quality code. Why try to gloss over these
challenges, or dismiss them as part of the learning curve, as known
issues, or as possible bugs? That's what you were doing with Frank
Alex and original poster: Don't give me an Andy Ihnatko
generalities, list these factors.
http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2004-February/ 030969.html
Thanks, Alex...
Now can you tell me which thread to search; there are a lot of
messages at the URL
--
Rob Cozens
CCW,
On Feb 9, 2004, at 9:48 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:
You are quite welcome to deal with corporate idiots such as these,
Alex, but let's not drag Transcript down to curry favor with
no-nothings.
Sounds like politics to me. I am raising a hypothetical question.
Suppose you were trying to bring xtalk
On Feb 9, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:
Alex and original poster: Don't give me an Andy Ihnatko
generalities, list these factors.
http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2004-February/
030969.html
Thanks, Alex...
Now can you tell me which thread to search; there are a lot of
Where might I locate the SDB/libIPC (to edcuate myself)?
K
--- On Mon 02/09, Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Alex Rice [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:41:13 -0700
Subject: Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide
brOn Feb
I sense you feel threatened by this thread because SDB and libIPC
are geared towards a more business like, maybe mission-critical
applications?
Sorry if it comes off looking that way, Alex. As IS manager for
several corporate governmental organizations, I did my home work
and provided senior
Where might I locate the SDB/libIPC (to edcuate myself)?
http://www.oenolog.net/ftp/serendipity_downloader.htm
Enjoy!
--
Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee.
from The
On Feb 9, 2004, at 11:43 AM, Alex Rice wrote:
I know- but for someone who didn't cut their teeth with metacard, and
all they have experienced is the runrev IDE, then it's blind faith
that the engine is as bulletproof as it's reputed to be.
Sorry cut their teeth is probably a poor expression to
On Feb 9, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:
1. If you have reliability concerns, check with the MetaCard community
2. If you cannot become comfortable with message passing, you will
always be uncomfortable with any flavor of X-Talk.
Sounds like good advice
Thanks,
--
Alex Rice | Mindlube
Rob Cozens wrote:
And, by the way, reliability is not an issue from my perspective.
How long has the underlying MetaCard engine been on the market?
Rev's VM has been field-tested for more than 13 years.
--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Media Corporation
I sense you feel threatened by this thread because SDB and libIPC
are geared towards a more business like, maybe mission-critical
applications?
Thank you, Alex, for the excuse for a little PR.
1. SDB libIPC are free and open source
2. My concern is that they do the job for my applications, as
Alex,
My first mission critical app was written in SuperCard! It was a
Jumbotron display controller for the NBA called JIVES and it
controlled the big screen TV's for NBA teams. As many advertisers
use the Jumbotron, $$$ were at stake if it didn't work properly.
In over 5 years of use, to my
On Feb 9, 2004, at 2:26 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:
My first mission critical app was written in SuperCard! It was a
Jumbotron display controller for the NBA called JIVES and it
controlled the big screen TV's for NBA teams.
That's a great example. Case study material.
Talking with my C programmer
On Feb 9, 2004, at 2:26 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:
Talking with my C programmer partner Chris, he mentioned that the
same messaging path problems are found in Delphi and VB as well
with variants of C including C#. So, how does MS and Borland sell
their products into mission critical enterprise
On and before 10/02/2004, at 7:19, several people wrote many things on
this topic:
Fundamentally, Alex is right but it does not matter a lot. So is Rob
but in a different sphere. Meanwhile, I think Frank is wrong.
Without going back to the original, I recall Alex's basic points as
being:
-
--- Chipp Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
thinking of it a multimedia/game
tool is most limiting.
it has to be one or the other?
=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.erikhansen.org
__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
David,
I am not certain that the second point (as I have interpreted him) is
true in the sense that it can not be dealt with in tool design or code
management but the first alone is sufficient to wipe Rev out of large
scale application development anyway.
I think you nailed it here.
- Rev lacks the inherent or external tools to support large team
development.
The absence of a utility or language feature does not preclude the
possibility of its existence.
Shall we complain, or design?
--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Media Corporation
Brian Yennie wrote:
I have no idea how I would function on a team xTalk project. Previous
threads here have discussed CVS, bug tracking, group projects... and as
far as I can tell all of those things are non-existent. They all make
my life many times easier when working in PHP or C, or a host
On Feb 9, 2004, at 5:00 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
Rev objects can be atomized down to individual properties and scripts,
and
reassembled again in nearly infinite variety.
What specifically is needed, and what are the challenges of building
it?
David:
Not sure but I think Chipp last brought up
Others may describe this better than me, but essentially CVS is
accustomed to individual text (= code) files organized into
directories. Although it supports binary files, it just basically
stores them as-is and doesn't try to reconcile.
This is what I would suggest:
1) Write an exporter for
Absolutely! I'm using it right now in a team of two... and I'd keep it
if one left =).
It of course also makes easy work of nightly builds, branches,
versioning, etc.
Developers that use CVS, Subversion etc. often use it on solo projects
as well! It's very empowering to be able to turn back
Alex Rice wrote:
What specifically is needed, and what are the challenges of building
it?
...
Brian:
Developers that use CVS, Subversion etc. often use it on solo projects
as well! It's very empowering to be able to turn back the clock on
all or part of your code. IBM Visual Age for Java
On Feb 9, 2004, at 6:05 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
Brian's never seen Chipp's versioning auto-saver?
Chipp's revArchive stack is a smart version of File menu | Save As.
Better than nothing, but it is definitely not a VC system.
What can't be hooked ? It's all exposed.
The Linux kernel is
Hi Alex,
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 22:15:48 -0700
From: Alex Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide
If the intended object does not receive the message, how will you know?
--
I'm no expert with understanding all of your dissertation, but I fully
On Feb 8, 2004, at 12:11 AM, Ken Norris wrote:
We can plan exactly how and where we want to trap messages and provide
callbacks that doublecheck for a proper response, i.e., one that falls
within predetermined limits, can't we?
Formalize it and be able to explain it to managers and other
So Alex, the bottom line is Transcript gives the developer more
options and more options = more opportunity for developer error?
Alex, et al:
Upon reflection, I will acknowledge that message path issues were one
of the most difficult parts of my transition from PL/1, C, Pascal
to HyperTalk.
Howdy,
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 07:07:27 -0700
From: Rob Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide
So Alex, the bottom line is Transcript gives the developer more
options and more options = more opportunity for developer error?
If the intended
Your the man, Ken.
:-)
Tom
On Feb 8, 2004, at 8:35 PM, Ken Norris wrote:
Howdy,
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 07:07:27 -0700
From: Rob Cozens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: mission critical apps; was Re: cross platform ide
So Alex, the bottom line is Transcript gives the developer more
options
Well *I* can write reliable code in transcript. Of course! If we all
didn't believe that we would not be using Runrev as our favorite
development tool right?
I don't mean to be pedantic about this. I want anyone trying to write
business apps with runrev to succeed. Before you can succeed you
Don't interpret any of the following as a complaint against xtalks, in
fact I desire to move away from business support apps and into more
games and multimedia. So I do like the ad-hoc flexibility of
transcript.
Topics have been coming up about how Runrev should gain footholds in
corporate IT
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