Robin wrote..
With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then,
and they
will have closed down altogether.
Terry asked...
With which technology?
Robin replied..
The one I'm designing right now. :)
Howdy Vorts..
Better ask Japan Inc. before you spend too much money
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 05 Apr 2007 09:40:53 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>That makes sense for an electric power plant, where the cost of capital
>>equipment is well known, but not much sense for e.g. CRUDE OIL/GASOLINE, where
>>the cost can the calculated a
In reply to Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:10:16 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>On 4/4/07, Robin van Spaandonk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, and
>> they
>> will have closed down altogether.
>
>With which technology?
The
A bit too hasty on this:
After all - only one kilowatt of solar per meter^2 on average may fall
on the pond over daylight but 50 kilowatts of heat energy may be
dissipated by the same area over the 24 hour day ... maybe not in the
pond configuration but in the tube setup used by MIT.
50 kilo
Jed Rothwell wrote:
With IR photosynthesis alone, and no sunlight photosynthesis, you might
pull this off with less than 1000 acres.
The conceptual problem that all of us have - when comparing single cell
life with "agriculure" is that the two are radically different in a few
vital categori
I wrote:
Actually, with heat alone and no photosynthesis, you might pull this
off with less than 1000 acres.
This is inaccurate, as Beene noted. It should say:
With IR photosynthesis alone, and no sunlight photosynthesis, you
might pull this off with less than 1000 acres.
I wonder if it i
I wrote:
The algae converts waste heat back into carbon compounds, recovering
some of the lost energy.
That is stupid way to express the idea. It should be:
The algae uses IR from the waste heat to synthesize carbon compounds,
converting some waste heat back into high-grade potential chemica
The "photo" in photosynthesis means "photonic" but heat (IR) is also
photonic and heat has been totally neglected in your argument.
It has been over two years since photosynthesis experts from Arizona
State University found and documented photosynthesis taking place deep
within the Pacific
I wrote:
It is waste heat from coal, which is ~60% to ~70% of the starting
heat. Assume the plants convert 10% of that heat back into carbon
compounds, which would be phenomenally good. That 6% the waste heat.
6% of the starting heat, I mean.
A 6% improvement in coal plant production would e
Jones Beene wrote:
Your logical error here --and it invalidates your whole argument is
the assumption that algae are merely converting sunlight into energy. Wrong.
Or should I say partially wrong. Sunlight is a catalyst for growth
and is advantageous, but single-cell life will proliferate in
Jed Rothwell wrote:
Oh come now, that's absurd. Let us have a reality check here please!
Let's assume the system is a black hole that absorbs every joule of
sunlight and converts it into oil.
1 acre = 4,047 m^2.
Your logical error here --and it invalidates your whole argument is the
as
Jones Beene quotes someone:
Valcent has extrapolated data from its test bed facility to conclude
that production yields of up to 150,000 gallons (3,570 barrels) of
bio-oil per acre per year are possible at a cost of about $20 per barrel.
Oh come now, that's absurd. Let us have a reality check
Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
That makes sense for an electric power plant, where the cost of capital
equipment is well known, but not much sense for e.g. CRUDE OIL/GASOLINE, where
the cost can the calculated any of a thousand different ways,
depending on what
one decides to include or leave out.
Robin wrote..
With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, and
they
will have closed down altogether.
With which technology?
Terry
Howdy Vorts,
Year 2010, provided it arrives on time is only 2 1/2 years off. The USA,
provided it makes it another 2 1/2 years, wo
On 4/4/07, Robin van Spaandonk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, and they
will have closed down altogether.
With which technology?
Terry
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:31:06 -0400
(GMT-04:00):
Hi,
[snip]
>Robin van Spaandonk writes:
>
>>>Where document are you talking about? I do not see "Unit Cost" in the
>>>NREL document.
>>
>>In each of the diagrams, under each "fuel type", e.g. for CRUDE OIL/GASOLINE
In reply to R.C.Macaulay's message of Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:43:28 -0500:
Hi Richard,
[snip]
>
>
>Jones wrote..
>There was a "green" alternative-energy story last fall:
>
>"Global Green To Fund Demonstration Algae Bioreactor Plant"
>
>http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/global_green_to.html
>
>
>H
Jones wrote..
There was a "green" alternative-energy story last fall:
"Global Green To Fund Demonstration Algae Bioreactor Plant"
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/global_green_to.html
Howdy Jones,
Good insight, I passed on your comments to a party inside LCRA .
The Lower Colorado Ri
Robin van Spaandonk writes:
>>Where document are you talking about? I do not see "Unit Cost" in the
>>NREL document.
>
>In each of the diagrams, under each "fuel type", e.g. for CRUDE OIL/GASOLINE
>they have a Unit Cost ($/kW) : 1000, Total Cost ($/kW delivered) 8505.
Ah, you are talking about t
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:57:38 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>> >waste heat from generators far exceeds the total amount of heat
>> >generated by burning coal. See the figure on last page of this document:
>> >
>> >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRE
There was a "green" alternative-energy story last fall:
"Global Green To Fund Demonstration Algae Bioreactor Plant"
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/global_green_to.html
Global Green Solutions has agreed to fund a pilot plant demo-ing the
technology developed by Valcent Products for an
Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>waste heat from generators far exceeds the total amount of heat
>generated by burning coal. See the figure on last page of this document:
>
>http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf
Why is the "Unit cost" in $/kW as opposed to $/kWh? Is this a mistake, or are
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 04 Apr 2007 14:35:15 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Jones Beene wrote:
>
>>>However, what's not clear to me is what would algoil be doing under
>>>equivalent conditions at 9 am in December, when temperatures are
>>>hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or less.
>>
>>T
Jones Beene wrote:
However, what's not clear to me is what would algoil be doing under
equivalent conditions at 9 am in December, when temperatures are
hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or less.
The prime location for any algae pond and CO2 sytem is adjacent to a
regular power plant, where
Speaking of ponds, Jones.
For spending a lazy afternoon on a dairy lagoon where the algae bloom, fed
by
wash-down nutrients and CO2 from Anerobic digestion of biomass sediment.
http://maps.google.com/maps?li=rwp&q=2295+CR+H,+CLOVIS,+NM+88101&ie=UTF8&t=h
&om=0&z=18&ll=34.588589,-103.180574&spn=0.0
> > Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50
> > times more energy returned per dollar of investment
> > compared to solar cell technology. I'd like to believe
> > that, but I remain a tad skeptical.
> Then compute how much 200 acres of solar cells will cost...
>
> Jones
Repeating t
Steven
Jones makes an interesting point about the vulnerability of solar cell
technology under certain seasonal conditions. However, what's not clear
to me is what would algoil be doing under equivalent conditions at 9 am
in December, when temperatures are hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or
>From Jones:
> These [solar] cells might achieve 40% at noon in July
> after being cleaned, yet only 10% at 9 am in December
> with the normal coating of grime which silicon picks
> up rapidly -plus- the main point is that they are
> extraordinarily expensive compared to ponds and
> plumbing (for
Frederick Sparber wrote:
Jed keeps harping on the low (2%?) solar conversion efficiency of
growing biomass
It is probably lower than that for general agriculture, but once again,
that figure is meaningless as -- and so is the 40% efficiency number for
new solar cells.
These cells might ac
Jed keeps harping on the low (2%?) solar conversion efficiency of growing
biomass, I'll
put my ~3.5 acres of irrigated farmland into Jatropha Curcas bushes, where land
all around it is selling for $.50 to $1.50
per square foot, up against his "41% efficient Solar Collector" anytime.
That is, If
What does big-oil fear more than Nancy Pelosi and the Dem-wits?
Answer: the resourcefulness of the American farmer, backed by voter
anti-tax sentiment in support of this 'local hero'.
And now with aquaculture and depleted fishing resources - they also are
fearing the emergence of low-cost sea
True, however, in terms of weather patterns, a small temperature over
a large area has more effect than large but concentrated. see el
nino.
On 4/2/07, Jed Rothwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
leaking pen wrote:
>Also, large ponds that are heated... that waste heat goes straight
>up, and will
leaking pen wrote:
Also, large ponds that are heated... that waste heat goes straight
up, and will change weather patterns.
Well, we are only talking about doing this with waste heat from
generators, and that already goes straight up. It is mostly released
in the form of steam from the lar
not in all of the us. a lot of empty ground is here in the southwest,
and algae will grow year round.
Also, large ponds that are heated... that waste heat goes straight
up, and will change wehather patterns.
On 4/2/07, Jed Rothwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jones Beene wrote:
>That is an a
Frederick Sparber wrote:
> As soon as we get
> back of the picture and stop polluting the water, we should also stop
> harvesting the stuff.
>
Yes, otherwise it ends up in the ocean and rots.
If so, that is what it has been doing for millions of years, and
that's what it is "supposed" to do.
Jed Rothwell wrote.
>
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Don't leave out waste heat from nuclear power plants heating algae ponds,
> >Jones. Plenty of "sequestered" CO2 to pipe to them, and it would
> >help reduce cooling tower water usage, too.
>
> Where is "sequestered" CO2 near a nuclear plant?
Jed Rothwell wrote.
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Pollution, Bloom, or not, Jed, all of the water from watershed runoff
> >contains algae.
>
> Yes. Way too much. We should be trying to reduce that.
>
>
> >Figure out how much algae is available per unit volume after you've
> >allowed for feedin
Frederick Sparber wrote:
Don't leave out waste heat from nuclear power plants heating algae ponds,
Jones. Plenty of "sequestered" CO2 to pipe to them, and it would
help reduce cooling tower water usage, too.
Where is "sequestered" CO2 near a nuclear plant? As I said, they
build these things
Frederick Sparber wrote:
Pollution, Bloom, or not, Jed, all of the water from watershed runoff
contains algae.
Yes. Way too much. We should be trying to reduce that.
Figure out how much algae is available per unit volume after you've
allowed for feeding aquatic life and available natural pl
Jones Beene wrote.
>
>
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife
> > grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is
> > another matter."
>
>
>
> That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor even
> w
ximum production is near the
surface,
doesn't seem intractable.
Fred
> [Original Message]
> From: Jed Rothwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> Date: 4/2/2007 10:44:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Jones Beene did
I wrote:
Lake Meade, on the Colorado River, has a surface area of 620 km^2.
That's 620,000,000 square meters. It is arid, and solar energy
reaching the ground in North America arid places is about 500 W at
peak, or 1.5 kWh/m^2/day.
I believe natural algae photosynthesis efficiency is . . . w
Jones Beene wrote:
That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor
even want "tanks".
There are tanks in most of the prototypes now on line, such as this one:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/worlds_first_ca.php
In fact there are already plans and suggestions from
Frederick Sparber wrote:
Jones Beene did a Google satellite view of the area where the Colorado River
enters the Gulf of California last year.
Let me amend that: my statement applied to plant life grown outdoors
on land in North America, not in water.
However, the huge algae blooms in water
Jed Rothwell wrote:
As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife
grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is
another matter."
That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor even
want "tanks".
In fact there are already pla
Jones Beene wrote.
>
>
> Fred,
>
> ... chances are, the biofuel skeptic will chose to opine that
> "Albuquerque" must be on Mars, since earthlings without a spell-checker
> could never get there from here
>
Not hard to find on a map of Bernalillio County NM, Jones, once
you figure out how to spe
:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
Can someone help clarify:
What is the algae's food source? Surely there's more to this recycling equation
than just supplying the little critters CO2.
How difficult or easy will it be to supply all the required nutrients to make
an econom
Jed Rothwell wrote.
>
> To:
> Date: 4/2/2007 8:47:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae:
>
> >Jones Beene wrote:
> >
> >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are
> >he
Can someone help clarify:
What is the algae's food source? Surely there's more to this recycling equation
than just supplying the little critters CO2.
How difficult or easy will it be to supply all the required nutrients to make
an economical go of this?
Most of these articles seem to skim ove
Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae:
Jones Beene wrote:
Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are
here to stay.
> Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on
planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.
As I said in a
Fred,
... chances are, the biofuel skeptic will chose to opine that
"Albuquerque" must be on Mars, since earthlings without a spell-checker
could never get there from here
When reading these reports I notice "press release" at the end. Why do I get a
mental picture of a cow with several "sucklins" feeding off her in a pasture
around Menlo Park or Cambridge?
Maybe it's because our local coal fired power plant ( Sam Seymour plant,one of
25 of the worse in USA
l feedstocks
such as soybeans or corn which have a limited harvest window, algae multiply
every hour can be harvested every day."
- Original Message -
From: Frederick Sparber
To: vortex-l
Sent: 4/2/2007 4:31:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
Jones Beene wrote:
Advance
Jones Beene wrote:
Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are here to stay.
> Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet Earth we
> barely have enough room to grow enough food.
>
> - Jed
http://www.pnm.com/news/2006/073106_biomass.htm
"Albuqu
Terry Blanton wrote:
On 3/31/07, Taylor J. Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The Iranians are almost certain to mine the
straits of Hormuz if their oil fields are attacked,
I'm a lot more concerned about the rocket propelled torpedo. Did anybody
listen to the Glen Beck interview of Jerry B
On 3/31/07, Taylor J. Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The Iranians are almost certain to mine the
straits of Hormuz if their oil fields are attacked,
Ocean mines are no longer a threat.
Terry
Hi All,
Just an afterthought: When is "two queens" a
winning hand?
Answer: When they are the major shareholders
in British Petroleum and Roayal Dutch Shell.
Jack Smith
leaking pen wrote:
This may make wood alchohol production useful again, as
you can now break down both the lignin AND the cellulose.
Hi All,
Methanol from coal should be a crash priority of the US
government. The Iranians are almost certain to mine the
straits of Hormuz if their oil fields are
This may make wood alchohol production useful again, as you can now
break down both the lignin AND the cellulose.
On 3/30/07, Jones Beene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
leaking pen wrote:
> Theres direct cellulose conversion now?
Yup. Only this year has the Rumpelstiltskin effect come into
fruit
leaking pen wrote:
Theres direct cellulose conversion now?
Yup. Only this year has the Rumpelstiltskin effect come into
fruition - with at least three companies moving from pilot plants to
full production. One leading contender is called Dyadic.
They are a bit tight-lipped, but the plan
Theres direct cellulose conversion now? I'm behind on the technology,
obviously.
On 3/30/07, Jones Beene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
leaking pen wrote:
> I for one never understood CORN being used. grow something with a
> higher fruit yeild per acre, and sugar yeild per pound.
The decision f
Jones Beene wrote:
As Pimentel has pointed out ...
Utterly meaningless. The guy is an antiquated and misguided zealot . . .
Because he does biology, and presents quantitative, reality-based
arguments, I suppose. I agree that in the new era of fact-free
touchy-feeling "truthiness" this kind
leaking pen wrote:
I for one never understood CORN being used. grow something with a
higher fruit yeild per acre, and sugar yeild per pound.
The decision for growing corn is not 'ordered' at even a regional level
but is made at a much lower level - the individual farmer.
From the perspecti
I for one never understood CORN being used. grow something with a
higher fruit yeild per acre, and sugar yeild per pound.
On 3/30/07, Jones Beene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Recent negative comments on Vortex on this subject are short-sighted and
counter productive, despite the fact that ethanol
Jed Rothwell wrote:
As Pimentel has pointed out ...
Utterly meaningless. The guy is an antiquated and misguided zealot with
zero credibility among the decision makers on either side of the aisle-
as witnessed by the massive changes already underway.
As for developing improved ethanol, if
Jones Beene wrote:
It is all about infrastructure, 'stepping stones', stop-gap
solutions, and the ramping up of domestic farm production with what
we have now - in anticipation of what we will have in two to three years time.
As Pimentel has pointed out, if we were to convert every scrap of n
Recent negative comments on Vortex on this subject are short-sighted and
counter productive, despite the fact that ethanol itself is not a
desirable transportation fuel.
It is all about infrastructure, 'stepping stones', stop-gap solutions,
and the ramping up of domestic farm production with w
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