Merle,
The ride is always rocky.
Culture has a way of surviving. And of being transmitted.
--Joe
> Merle Lester wrote:
>
> hi joe thank you for the clarification..hitler tried to stamp out culture and
> impose his own ideas...so did stalin as did mao...the rocky ride is in the
> NOW mer
hi joe thank you for the clarification..hitler tried to stamp out culture and
impose his own ideas...so did stalin as did mao...the rocky ride is in the
NOW merle
Hi, Merle,
In this usage, the Culture implied is Literature, History, Music, Language,
Philosophy, Art, Natural Science, R
Hi, Merle,
In this usage, the Culture implied is Literature, History, Music, Language,
Philosophy, Art, Natural Science, Religion, and so on.
--Joe
> Merle Lester wrote:
>
> group: not all culture is worthwhile..clarify please.. we are now in
> financial totalitarianism regime world wide...
group: some need to be led all their lives..they are fearful of being left to
discover themselves... as i say born knowing we forget our origins in the
razzlemattazle of life..merle
Bill,
As if reality didn't slap you around all the time?
The problem with you guy's insistence on having
group: not all culture is worthwhile..clarify please.. we are now in financial
totalitarianism regime world wide... bad culture here...merle
Bill!,
Well observed.
Those who undervalue the benefits we derive from being taught by parents and
teachers and by Culture reminds me of the effor
group..some parents and teachers too are bad news... merle
Bill and Joe,
Yes, but your parents are supposed to teach you how to think rationally, not
teach you Zen.
Apparently the've failed on both accounts?
:-)
Edgar
On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Joe wrote:
>Bill!,
>
>Well observe
Edgar, hi, again,
Yes, I put it this way to show who's "in", and who's "out".
Anything to needle you and give you occasion to study-up on our sect. You've
clearly never done your homework, here, nor done a proper study with teacher
and sangha. But everyone here who has in fact practiced -- an
Joe,
Our? Who's our? Who do you think you are the official voice for? The yam leaf
sect?
Edgar
On Jun 13, 2013, at 4:54 PM, Joe wrote:
> Hi, Edgar,
>
> Parents and family teach us a lot more than thinking.
>
> I went to a Zen teacher to teach me Zen practice. And learned with others,
> t
Hi, Edgar,
Parents and family teach us a lot more than thinking.
I went to a Zen teacher to teach me Zen practice. And learned with others,
there. It's our way. ;-)
(the Zen school has always emphasized practicing together).
--Joe
> Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Bill and Joe,
>
> Yes, but your p
Bill and Joe,
Yes, but your parents are supposed to teach you how to think rationally, not
teach you Zen.
Apparently the've failed on both accounts?
:-)
Edgar
On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Joe wrote:
> Bill!,
>
> Well observed.
>
> Those who undervalue the benefits we derive from being tau
Bill!,
Well observed.
Those who undervalue the benefits we derive from being taught by parents and
teachers and by Culture reminds me of the efforts by some who engage in
electioneering. They sometimes try to enhance to an extreme their semblance of
independence and self-reliance.
A funny in
Brilliant!Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
#5!
Edgar
On Jun 13, 2013, at 10:18 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Yeh, but who's counting?...
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>
> From: Edgar Owen ;
> To: ;
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:03:24 PM
>
Yeh, but who's counting?...Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Bill,
As if reality didn't slap you around all the time?
The problem with you guy's insistence on having a teacher is it easily becomes
a sop and and an excuse for not doing the work yourself.
Insistence on a teacher is the sign of a dependent personality, and as long as
you wait for a teacher
>
> From: Edgar Owen ;
> To: ;
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 12:24:26 PM
>
>
> Mike,
>
>
> Again a clever response that allows your ego to pat itself on the back rather
> than get out of the way...
>
> Edg
Mike and Edgar,
I thought it was a good response also.
It expanded on Edgar's simile of breathing adding the caveat I wanted - which
is most need a little slap on the butt to get them started. I think it is the
same with zen practice. A good teacher can certainly give you that slap and
more.
Oh, come on! It was a good comeback.MikeSent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Edgar,And yet your ego's moved enough to comment on
it.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony!
>
> Mike
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>
> From: Bill! ;
> To: ;
> Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:27:35 AM
>
>
> Edgar,
>
> There is nothing for which a human bein
Agreed... An eminently rational statement
Edgar
On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:27 AM, Bill! wrote:
> Edgar,
>
> There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could
> conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where you
> needed it. However most humans do
r iPad
>
> From: Bill! ;
> To: ;
> Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad
> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:46:17 AM
>
>
> Edgar,
>
> You asked, "Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born?"
>
> I may have done that spontaneously but I
Bill!,And yet here is Edgar trying to 'teach' us his theory and where
we're all going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony!MikeSent
from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Edgar,
There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could
conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where you
needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with your
parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have
Touché!Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Edgar,
You asked, "Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born?"
I may have done that spontaneously but I may have needed a slap on my butt to
start that process. I don't remember.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Yes, in the limite
Agreed...
Edgar
On Jun 11, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
>
> I mean any human who has some psychological blindness to parts of their
> current reality can benefit from interactions with another person, especially
> in tasks where the tendency to fool yourself is a factor. Th
I mean any human who has some psychological blindness to parts of their
current reality can benefit from interactions with another person,
especially in tasks where the tendency to fool yourself is a factor.
That's why teachers are generally useful. Your true statement about
teachers not being need
Chris,
I have no idea what you are saying here. Or where this seemingly irrational
conclusion came from. Or are you projecting?
Edgar
On Jun 11, 2013, at 11:09 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
>
> Edgar,
>
> You write as tho you have caught your self engaged in self-deception, or
> partial bli
Edgar,
You write as tho you have caught your self engaged in self-deception, or
partial blindness of your own reality. For those of us who have a tendency
to prefer things to be slightly other than they are, or who have a lifetime
of not seeing certain parts of our functioning, ir can be useful t
Bill,
Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before
reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as little
pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature.
But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan.
Edgar,
Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all koans.
And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some other action or
even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 'convince' your teacher to
pass the koan - at least if you want to gain his/he
Bill,
There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha Nature.
So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point to anything at
all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha Nature.
But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to that
Edgar,
I agree with Joe here.
All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically designed to
induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require a demonstration rather
than an explanation. For example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's
request was to "BRING me
Edgar,
If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do.
Anyone who passes the koan "What is the sound of One Hand?", makes a
demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are you all
hung up about?
Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after a f
Chris,
Don't confuse crazy with compassionate! ;-)
I know you don't.
I've gotten swift swats from Sheng Yen on occasion, in Interview (dokusan).
Sometimes to compliment, and sometimes to chastise, but usually to encourage.
You know how it goes. Or I hope so.
Especially with a teacher fr
Joe,
The point of my reply to your post both of which you obsessively snipped is this
Your post went against even the view of koans you are supposed to believe in as
an orthodox zennist.
You and Bill claim that koans have no solution but are to be discarded in a
satori.
But instead your post
I've never heard you describe your lineage as crazy, Joe.
My practise at the moment - reading a Percy Jackson book to a very tired
8.5 year old who is fighting the bed time ritual with upset and so on. Q
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
Chris,
Anger is bound to get a student a swift swat with an ag
Chris,
Anger is bound to get a student a swift swat with an agile stick.
That's why I make my sticks as I do: agile; swift; flexible; noisy; durable.
Of quarter-sawn timber. Sometimes plain-sawn. I make them to last several
lifetimes, but a teacher usually only exercises them for a single li
Edgar,
Well, that's IT (that DOES it).
You are OFF my Christmas Card list! ;-)
Humbug right back,
Your'n truly,
-- Hose-B
> Edgar Owen wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Bah! Humbug!
>
> Edgar
Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or a
I was going to say that in all my conversations with people studying koans
and all my reading of zen, I have never before run into a claim of solving
a koan. However, in fact, there is a book called After Zen about a Dutch
detective who becomes disillusioned with Zen (Rinzai school, as practised
i
Joe,
Bah! Humbug!
Edgar
On Jun 8, 2013, at 5:46 PM, Joe wrote:
> Edgar, Bill!, Chris, Group,
>
> The actual (real) koan reads:
>
> "What is the sound of one hand?"
>
> The "clapping" is not original, and is incorrect to insert. Not only
> incorrect, but misleading. It's a 1950's bit of b.s
Edgar, Bill!, Chris, Group,
The actual (real) koan reads:
"What is the sound of one hand?"
The "clapping" is not original, and is incorrect to insert. Not only
incorrect, but misleading. It's a 1950's bit of b.s. appended by some American
or English illiterate non-practitioner.
The koan has
Chris and Bill,
Example of the solution of a koan.
What's the sound of one hand clapping?
The solution is the recognition that language is capable of expressing
irrational meaningless syntax. Therefore language itself isn't truth unless
what it expresses is consistent with the overall consiste
Chris,
That's the theory, but it's only one of several types of first steps for
beginners to (hopefully) get a little satori experience by temporarily
exhausting their brains trying to figure out something that doesn't have an
easy solution.
The other approach is to actually SOLVE the koan and
Ok, but would you agree that Bill's descrion of classical koan training is
accurate - the koan is used to silence the generation of thoughts and words?
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jun 8, 2013 6:47 AM, "Edgar Owen" wrote:
>
>
> Chris,
>
> I've been dealing with the quantum koan all my life.
Chris,
I've been dealing with the quantum koan all my life.
Reality is the ultimate koan... Solve that one and you've got it!
Edgar
On Jun 8, 2013, at 9:43 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
>
> I didn't think you had done Koan training, Edgar?
>
> Thanks,
> --Chris
> 301-270-6524
> On Jun 8, 2
I didn't think you had done Koan training, Edgar?
Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
On Jun 8, 2013 4:40 AM, "Edgar Owen" wrote:
>
>
> Bill,
>
> O boy, here we go again
>
> Maybe YOUR intellect shuts down but my intellect IS Buddha Nature
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bil
Bill,
O boy, here we go again
Maybe YOUR intellect shuts down but my intellect IS Buddha Nature
Edgar
On Jun 7, 2013, at 11:17 PM, Bill! wrote:
> Suresh, et al...
>
> I agree with Joe here. In fact zen koans are used to exhaust logic and
> dialectic. When you try to use logic or
Suresh, et al...
I agree with Joe here. In fact zen koans are used to exhaust logic and
dialectic. When you try to use logic or dialectic to 'solve' a koan you will
continually fail and eventually will just give up out of frustration or boredom
- much the way you can relax your mind by gazing
Suresh,
Well, "obsessed" is too strong -- and wrong -- a word.
On a Zen forum, I don't mind speaking about Zen, however. Your habit seems to
speak about all else but Zen.
Other things enter here from time to time, of course, which relate to our topic.
But in general, I enjoy keeping on-topic,
Dear Joe,
Of course the discussion was with other forum member. I know the author of The
Book of Mirdad.
I have posted it since it is also related to Buddha. Since that member thought
Buddha also copied from vedas, I have to argue with him.
Like you are so much obsessed with zen and zen only,
yea... gibran... one of my all time favs... merle
Suresh,
Perhaps ours or yours is a "party-line" telephone, as in the very old days.
It appears you've posted a conversation from elsewhere, by others, and we've
"picked-up" by mistake.
BTW, for those interested in THE BOOK OF MIRDAD, the a
Suresh,
Perhaps ours or yours is a "party-line" telephone, as in the very old days.
It appears you've posted a conversation from elsewhere, by others, and we've
"picked-up" by mistake.
BTW, for those interested in THE BOOK OF MIRDAD, the author is Mikhail Naimy.
He was a Lebanese Greek Orthod
i know sufism..and i saw the dervish dancers live in sydney...brilliant
performance...merle
Suresh,
It's a good book! I've loved it since 1973, when I practiced in New York with
the Sufis and a PhD Astronomer there turned me on to the book.
I look at your quoted lines now, after many
Suresh,
It's a good book! I've loved it since 1973, when I practiced in New York with
the Sufis and a PhD Astronomer there turned me on to the book.
I look at your quoted lines now, after many years of Zen practice, and say,
"Aphorisms!". ...as I said about others of your posts containing jus
Suresh,
What is "The Book of Mirdad"? ...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote:
>
> =
>
>
> The Book of Mirdad Quotes
>
> "Often you shall think your road impassable, sombre and
> companionless. Have will and plod along;
57 matches
Mail list logo
