Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-26 Thread Paul Osborne
Grampa Bill responds: >I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust >just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was >terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he >want to work as a machinist for the county. >I know of another w

[ZION] High Priests

2002-10-26 Thread Gary Smith
According to Elder McConkie, the Nephites didn't have the Aaronic priesthood, since at the time it was limited to the Levites. Hence, all their ordinations were to the Melchizedek Priesthood. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "N

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-26 Thread Grampa Bill
Paul Osborne wrote: I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. === Grampa Bill responds:

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-25 Thread Scott McGee
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:09:09 -0400, "Elmer L. Fairbank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > At 03:13 10/25/2002 +, St Stephen wrote: > > >Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's > >razor, so they can get their acts together. > > What's a razor? Till, a razor is that

[ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-25 Thread Gary Smith
Yes, I know that Nibley says it is a free lunch, but he also says we still must work. What I was meaning, is that there are laws of work governing worldly wealth. The person who works hard and smart tends to live a more comfortable life than someone who is sloth or not so wise in their dealings wit

Re: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-25 Thread Paul Osborne
Mark >Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not Levites they never >did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the law of Moses. Therefore, so >state these same Brethren, the Nephites always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. >They further state (IIRC) that they

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-25 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Mark- > Moroni talks about teachers and priests. This is several > hundred years after Christ, so the Nephites had the Melchizedek > priesthood at that time and were not under the law of Moses. True enough. I was referring to earlier, pre-Resurrection references to teachers and priests. But you

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-25 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Tilly- > What's a razor? He's the guy whut grows the crops. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// //

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-25 Thread Mark Gregson
- Stephen - Though this is off the main thread, it's an interesting side thread. I don't agree that "teacher" was a Melchizedek Priesthood office for the Nephites; the Melchizedek Priesthood was not generally held among the Jews, so I don't see why it would have been generally held among the N

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-25 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 03:13 10/25/2002 +, St Stephen wrote: Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's razor, so they can get their acts together. What's a razor? Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Pleas

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
Gary, all this side discussion about Alma 13 and such is interesting enough, and I'm happy enough to continue it -- though I suspect that, upon review of the relevant teachings and a careful rereading of Alma's words, you will agree that Alma 13 is much more inclusive than you've been thinking,

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-24 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Gary- > You give some nice definitions, but can you show where these > definitions come from? Mostly from the scriptures themselves. I am pretty sure that the Bible never explicitly specifies that Enos was Adam's grandson, but the meaning is clear enough that I can say that anyway. Similarly, A

Re: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-24 Thread Paul Osborne
"There are in this greater priesthood five offices or callings—elder, seventy, high priest, patriarch, and apostle—yet the priesthood is the same; and the priesthood is greater than any of its offices. We are a kingdom of brethren, a congregation of equals, all of whom are entitled to receive all

[ZION] High Priests

2002-10-24 Thread Gary Smith
Stephen, You give some nice definitions, but can you show where these definitions come from? I agree that the term "high priest" can have more than one meaning, but there are many Church leaders who would disagree with your Alma 13 assessment, and say that those were, indeed, high priests in the

Re: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders

2002-10-24 Thread Sandy and Melinda Rabinowitz
>From what I've noticed here in my ward-- Prospective Elders: 98% Inactive* Elders: Seems like 25-30% Inactive, at least here High Priests: 5-10% Inactive, but it seems as if the inactivity occurs mainly for health reasons, such as an extended hospitalization As Paul O. noted, Prospective El

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Paul Osborne
>Till, who hopes he hasn't offended Of course not. I'm the one around here that probably is the most offensive. When I was a kid I use to through rocks at beehives and shoot my bee bee gun at the neighbors windows. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] __

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Marc A. Schindler
When I lived in Seattle, when I was 14 I got my patriarchal blessing (this was in the old Renton ward of the Seattle Stake -- there are now 2 or 3 stakes in the region that old ward covered, which dates me!). The patriarch asked me if I wouldn't please try to friendship his son, who was going inact

RE: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Jeffrey Ross
Paul (from a post in reply to mine regarding the HP money issue): > That's really odd. But administrators make more money than > everyone else under the administration so he has the most > money. I'm right and you're wrong. John: > I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order > t

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 21:46 10/23/2002 -0500, St Paul wrote: I will admit that I used to annoyed about it in the past. Till detects that it is still unresolved But it is the Lord's church and he can do whatever he wants, so I have come to accept it. You're on the right track, though but I'm sure he had suff

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 21:43 10/23/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. Not so sure I agree, Gary. Reference Approaching Zion Chapters 4 and 5. Not so sure earned is the correct choice of terms here. Till //

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-24 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Paul Osborne wrote: > > And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates > too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his > computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now > in my mind. > Having trouble sleeping, are we? -- Marc

Re: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-24 Thread Marc A. Schindler
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > At 11:41 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Gary Smith wrote: > >It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had > >a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, > >in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the

RE: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders

2002-10-23 Thread Ronn Blankenship
At 11:29 PM 10/23/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote: I do agree with at least one thing you've said: High priests are far more likely to be active than elders. Physically? ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last.

Re: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
>I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than 5 >percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny >this? Sounds about right. Keep in mind though that this also includes the perspective elders who never got ordained. Gee wizz. Now I feel like

RE: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders

2002-10-23 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-John- > I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that > fewer than 5 percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone > here confirm or deny this? I can't confirm or deny Church-wide, of course, but around here that's not the case. 50% is approximately right for the elders, proba

[ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 03:08 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Larry Jackson wrote: And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But t

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
>I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a >discussion. I coached him while he was here. > >It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? Yep. Your s right John. I like to be provocative and stir things up. It's fun, but I would feel bad if I hurt someones feeling

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 09:43 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones acc

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 08:48 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: I would say that most apostles will have money. There are exceptions, though fewer and fewer as the Church grows. Even today, many of our apostles are not wealthy, but are comfortable. In my family "comfortable" is a euphemism for wealthy. --J

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
I agree with everything you are saying Gary but I'm not thinking that all the GA's were born with silver spoons. I know they worked hard and got educated and have fine jobs that pay quite well. That is the nature of the man who gets the call. I am merely pointing out how the Lord does business and

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 12:03 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. ---

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
>What is your definition of "money"? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000? >$1,000,000? My definition of money is when you have it in the bank and you don't owe anyone anything except perhaps the mortgage. >Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your >definition of "m

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 08:47 AM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Paul Osborne wrote: I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Gary Smith wrote: > You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver > platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in > the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they > received was from hard work. > > Do you think any of them had

Re: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-23 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 11:41 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Gary Smith wrote: It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum. Yes but that is not what th

RE: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread larry . jackson
Paul Osborne: ... to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP. ___

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
Val wrote: >I must wholly disagree here. Our former stake president is only >high school educated and a construction worker. He was my Bishop when I >was a little girl, and back then he was managing a health spa. In fact, >we had no font in the building, so I was baptized in the pool at the spa.

[ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Gary Smith
You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they received was from hard work. Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to bec

[ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Gary Smith
Paul, What is your definition of "money"? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000? $1,000,000? Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your definition of "money", then you are right, most stake presidents AND High Priests have money. By the time they get to that age, they hav

[ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Gary Smith
I would say that most apostles will have money. There are exceptions, though fewer and fewer as the Church grows. Even today, many of our apostles are not wealthy, but are comfortable. President Monson has almost always worked in the Church, so basically lives on a stipend given him, plus revenues

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Valerie Nielsen Williams
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:09:51 -0500 Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Did I say that a man had to be wealthy to become a GA? The unwritten > rule > is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a > prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is > loo

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
>Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an >apostle? A janitor, a manual laborer, and a machinist are not qualified to become apostles but a rich rancher and a rich farmer could be considered. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
>Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President >Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so >Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money from their >books, investments, consulting fees, etc.).

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not

2002-10-23 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Actually in the 3rd world a larger than proportional share of line authority callings go to Church/CES employees. And, as I loved to tease Grant Johnson (I think that's his name -- the Book of Mormon Answerman who infuriated many LDS by saying that only those soldiers who fought for the Allies in

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread hkpage
re... Heidi the fair > [Original Message] > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 10/23/2002 2:04:59 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] High Priests have money > > Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? &g

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Mark Gregson wrote: > > > To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? > > Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither >President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their >employment, so Paul's theory

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Mark Gregson
> To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (gran

RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not

2002-10-23 Thread Larry Jackson
Paul Osborne: >I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to >be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. ... It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-) ___

Re: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-23 Thread Marc A. Schindler
FWIW, this is also my reading of references to "high priests" in *most* scriptures (I won't make a univeral claim because of course the D&C, especially in 84 but elsewhere, too, makes a distinction between different offices of the MP). IOW, it's a reference to the Melchizedek Priesthood in general.

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread vicgh25
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. Vic --- Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>Don't con

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
>My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an >administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income >bracket. Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with >regard to income within the stake boundaries. > >How can you justify statements like that,

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
>I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to >be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get called in third world countries are the merchants and t

RE: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Jeffrey Ross
> -Original Message- > From: Paul Osborne [mailto:osborne1962@;juno.com] > > Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required > in order to get those high callings of Stake President and > up. Thank you for making my point, Gary. My former stake president was a public school

RE: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Paul- > The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people > are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. If I remember correctly, Elder Packer spent his professional life in the CES, a job practically guaranteed to keep you dressed in rags. Stephen //

RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not

2002-10-23 Thread Larry Jackson
Paul Osborne (replying to someone else): Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. ___ I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to be called as a stake president. I can further assu

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Jon Spencer
Phew! Now at least I don't have to worry about dealing with THAT calling! Jon > The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just > not good enough for the job. You have to have money. / /// ZION

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
>Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the >people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have >shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to get those high ca

Re: [ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-23 Thread Paul Osborne
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply pointing

RE: [ZION] High Priests

2002-10-22 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Gary- > We learn in D&C 107 that an apostle is a high priest And an elder is a deacon. May we therefore say that in order to bless by the laying on of hands, one must be a deacon? Technically it's true, but it is certainly misleading. In many places in scripture, "high priest" is used to mean

[ZION] High Priests have money

2002-10-22 Thread Gary Smith
I have to disagree with Paul on this one. I know several high priests who barely eke out a living. I've been one for 14 years, and was only a Buck Sergeant in the Air Force when first called. I promise you, they don't get the big bucks. My current bishop works as the general carpenter for the YMC

[ZION] High Priests

2002-10-22 Thread Gary Smith
We learn in D&C 107 that an apostle is a high priest, and although there are 15 ordained as apostles, technically it is a superset of high priest. Note the official title of the prophet of the Church: 64 Then comes the High Priesthood, which is the greatest of all. 65 Wherefore, it must needs be

[ZION] High Priests

2002-10-22 Thread Gary Smith
It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum. This happens depending upon the make up of the quorums/groups in a ward/branch

RE: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Rick Mathis
At 07:40 PM 10/22/2002 +, Stephen wrote: -Gary- > The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president. In other words, the only elder with keys is the presiding elder. Well, of course. And the only high priest with keys is the presiding high priest. > Yet, his keys are limi

Re: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne
Gary said: > There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to > an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), Yep. >but > eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will > have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven. I don't think so G

Re: [ZION] High priests have money

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I think I see your point, even past the tongue in your cheek, and hadn't thought about that. The Lord needs a pool to draw from, and the HP are that pool, so whether any given HP is or is not eventually called to what I keep calling a posiiton of line authority (to use a secular term) is irrelevant

RE: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Stephen Beecroft
-Gary- > The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president. In other words, the only elder with keys is the presiding elder. Well, of course. And the only high priest with keys is the presiding high priest. > Yet, his keys are limited. As are the bishop's or stake president

Re: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler
We had a riveting High Council speaker for quite a while (I know, I know, it's an oxymoron, and that's the point -- that's why he was so outstanding). A refugee from Pinochet's Chile, he was a widower and doggone it all, went and married a divorcée in our ward, stealing her into one of the big city

Re: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 12:08 10/22/2002 -0600, M Marc wrote: My spouse is a Vulcan, and she's giving me the death grip. Till was Vulcanized once. To keep his brains from leaking out. Unfortunately, it was too little, too late Till who's too "tired" to go "round and round" on this, so just "wheel" me

Re: [ZION] High priests have money

2002-10-22 Thread Paul Osborne
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that > sincerely), > so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are > unlikely, for one > reason or another (assuming, of course, th

Re: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Marc A. Schindler
And you thought when we leaned over in Sacrament meeting and our spouses put their arms on the back of our necks it was meant as a gesture of affection, too, probably. Ah, the naïveté :-) "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 07:59 10/21/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: > > >And yes, we have a secret handsh

Re: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 08:48 10/22/2002 -0400, Patient noJ wrote: Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to no avail. I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we can only teach it in the HP group meeting. They sure were cool dreams, too. Something to do with

Re: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Jon Spencer
Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to no avail. I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we can only teach it in the HP group meeting. Noj Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: > At 07:59 10/21/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: > > >And yes, we have a secret ha

RE: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Larry Jackson
Till writes: What??? I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep. ___ Oh, Till. It serves a far more important purpose than that. As you shake right hands, place two fingers of the left hand just ins

Re: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Elmer L. Fairbank
At 07:59 10/21/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: And yes, we have a secret handshake that you elders know nothing about. What??? I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep. Till /

Re: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-21 Thread Marc A. Schindler
Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to h