ooops got a bit eager with the send button.. i was just writing that one of the remedies could be decreasing the lifetime of a software patent (i cannot talk about other industries/sectors) from 20 years to somehting less like 5 (id even go as far as saying 2 if not for the fear of being publicly lynched)...
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Sriram Panyam <sri.pan...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Richard Heycock <r...@roughage.com.au>wrote: > >> >> Excerpts from 1_Place's message of Tue Nov 10 16:05:47 +1100 2009: >> > >> > My previous rant was after attending "Raising the awareness of >> > intellectual property amongst the business community" which stated: >> > "This forum will feature three expert speakers providing their >> > perspectives on the topic above"; however, no one seemed to think that >> > there was a problem with Patents & IP nor where there any suggestions >> > that the views such as those reflected by SiliconBeach existed! >> > >> > My thoughts were that there was an elephant in the room! >> > >> > Jay - thanks for your thoughts - it should be scalable but alas, it >> > currently is not: the legal costs are so very high to revoke or defend >> > a patent that it often is a game for empowered. Possibly a Patent >> > Court that efficiently resolves patent disputes would be beneficial? >> > or just more red tape? >> > >> > Patents for small player are valuable as negotiation tools and can >> > lead to a valuable return when pursued (from the matters that I have >> > been involved in it has been worthwhile). Also, as yet I have not >> > worked with a client that has not valued their patent highly ... but >> > this is not the full spectrum of experience. >> > >> > Richard - thanks also for your thoughts & links (alas, not read yet >> > but I will): >> > >> > The patent library works for me because: >> > 1) it is free: many academic journals you have to pay a subscription >> > for. The contributor pays the costs to enter material into the patent >> > system, not the reader; and >> >> Are you suggesting that it's free to publish get a patent? Is it even >> free to see all patents (I realise there are some sites that allow you >> to browse patents but is that all patents). >> >> Actually I think doing a patent yourself should cost around 1000 bucks > (around). But clearly you need help with a good patent attorney who can > help with the prior-art search and get the claims in the right "language"!! > And this is actually necessary because "vague" language can actually > invalidate a patent, wasting the precious R&D effort and IP. > > > >> > 2) it has a set format (objective, background, problem to be >> > overcome ...) and is most often translated into English, so you can >> > search it. I know of no other library that has hundreds of years of >> > entry in the same format. >> >> They may be literally translated into English but I would argue that >> it's not possible for a layman to *understand* them. >> >> definitely - i have read over a couple of hundred patents and still have > difficulty remembering the difference between "comprising of" and > "consisting of" (hint - one of them is "atleast one of" and the other is > "all of") > > Software patents haven't been around for hundreds of years. >> >> actually i think they ahve (and that may be the problem!)... my > understanding was they had started in Venice around the 1400s > > > http://www.piperpat.com/IPInformation/Introduction/HistoryofPatents/tabid/88/Default.aspx > > but i am pretty sure they would have undergone a bit of change since > then... > > >> Please don't get me wrong I'm not adverse to the concept of a patent >> system, my main problem the current implementation (I'm mainly talking >> about US patent law, I realise that the Australian patents are slightly >> saner) and software patents in general. >> >> > The Creative Commons license (see >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_license) >> > is for copyright. >> >> I understand that but surely it's a legally binding document clearly >> stating your idea and under what conditions you can use it. After all >> software is released under a copyright of some description. >> >> > As for Open Source - I am a great supporter of it. The patent >> > database does not stop people putting information into the public >> > domain and is often the means for people adding information into the >> > public domain since the decision to collect a royalty is up to the >> > applicant and the opportunity to collect a royalty is for a limited >> > period of time: http://1plaw.com/1P/expert/expert_wizard.php?area_id=12 >> >> So can I add an idea to the patent database for free and put it in the >> public domain without hiring a solicitor? Surely there are other ways of >> putting something into the public domain (I don't really subscribe to >> your view of the patent database as a library)? >> >> one remedy i can see is decreasing the lifetime of a patent from 20 years > (atleast for software patents) to something less > >> rgh >> >> > Thanks for your thoughts - there is truth in what you are expressing; >> > however, in the circus governing IP policy it seems that no-one has >> > noticed the elephant in the room! >> > >> > On Nov 10, 1:13 pm, 1_Place <drmichaelba...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > Thanks again >> > > >> > > I will reply specifically to your thoughts a little later - I believe >> > > there are many things wrong with the patent system at the moment >> > > - however, the governors of the system do not hear the wisdom of the >> > > crowds*: >> > > >> > > I have just come back from a talk with with IP Australia and IPTA (the >> > > Institute of Patent & Trade mark Attorneys): >> > > It seems that the outcome of these talks appeared to focus on: >> > > 1) people don't understand IP; >> > > 2) a little bit of knowledge is dangerous; and >> > > 3) we are doing so much (as we were walked through the website of >> > > these organisations) ... I was dismayed! >> > > >> > > There was no debate in these talks. Further, the same talks could have >> > > taken place a decade ago. >> > > >> > > Consequently, change will have to come from the users of IP, not the >> > > directors of it! >> > > >> > > Regards >> > > >> > > 1Place >> > > *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds >> > > >> > > On Nov 10, 12:37 pm, Richard Heycock <r...@roughage.com.au> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Excerpts from 1_Place's message of Tue Nov 10 10:04:26 +1100 2009: >> > > >> > > > > Thanks for your thoughts: >> > > >> > > > > There is a lot is anger towards patents which I would very much >> like >> > > > > to unravel - >> > > >> > > > > I see the patent system as a library that has a standard process >> for >> > > > > recording information, for which anyone at anytime can take >> > > > > information from that library - however, in approximately 8% of >> cases >> > > > > a royalty will have to be paid to the inventor/applicant. >> > > >> > > > You may well think of the patent system "... as a library that has >> a >> > > > standard process for recording information ..." but, surely, a much >> > > > better place for such information is journals and libraries not to >> > > > mention the Internet. >> > > >> > > > The reality is that large companies use it to stifle innovation and >> > > > protect their interests, usually at the cost of the people using the >> > > > software. See: >> > > >> > > > >> http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf >> > > >> > > > Particularly section III/B. >> > > >> > > > > If you can describe your invention and you do not want to seek >> > > > > royalties from it you can add it to the library as a Statutory >> > > > > Invention Registration see >> > > > > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Statutory_Invention_Regist... >> > > >> > > > Surely putting your invention in the public domain or publishing it >> a >> > > > using, say, Creative Commons license or the GFDL would achieve the >> same >> > > > thing? (Caveat INAL!). >> > > >> > > > > The sharing of knowledge is critically important for our growth so >> we >> > > > > can "stand on the shoulders of others" from which I learnt from my >> > > > > many years in research. >> > > >> > > > Absolutely but I do not think putting it into a system that has been >> > > > shown, on numerous occasions, to be open to abuse is a good idea. >> > > >> > > > I tend to think "stand on those who threaten our dominance" might be >> a >> > > > better quote! >> > > >> > > > rgh >> > > >> > > > > We need to deconstruct the reason(s) why we "protest so much" >> > > >> > > > > Let me build an tool to empirically find out what causes angst >> about >> > > > > the patent system as an empirical study (less dogma more karma!) >> > > >> > > > > "Can we fix it"? Famous words by Bob the builder : ) >> > > >> > > > > Regards >> > > > > 1_Place >> > > > >www.1p.com.au >> > > >> > > > > On Nov 10, 8:13 am, TinMan <jtinber...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > > > > Hi Elias, >> > > >> > > > > > I run a small Aussie "start-up", now into our seventh year. We >> do >> > > > > > SaaS for the facilities management industry. As a small company >> we >> > > > > > have some very large customers - Mirvac, Goodman, Spotless ... >> which >> > > > > > makes patent protection all the more important. (stops the >> internal >> > > > > > IT departments of these companies attempting to duplicate our >> > > > > > solutions). We hold 2 patents, and have 1 pending. Each one >> has cost >> > > > > > about 5k to 8k to register in Aus. We use Watermark in North >> Ryde. >> > > >> > > > > > I will say that the value of patents is questioned by VC's and >> is >> > > > > > often more of a cost than an asset. However, it does make >> getting the >> > > > > > R&D tax rebate easier, and access to other funds. In the end, >> you >> > > > > > need to be able to back your IP rights and have the finance to >> defend >> > > > > > them. >> > > >> > > > > > My point is they are not just for large companies, and in our >> case >> > > > > > have proved worth the investment. >> > > >> > > > > > Regards, >> > > >> > > > > > Jon Tinbergwww.valoremsystems.com >> > > >> > > > > > On Nov 9, 7:26 am, Elias Bizannes <elias.bizan...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > > <rant>Software patents hurt the world. The big companies all >> have agreements >> > > > > > > with each other where it's a "we won't sue you if you don't >> sue us" because >> > > > > > > they all inevitably infringe on each others patents and the >> rapid innovation >> > > > > > > occuring wouldn't happen without such agreements. All patents >> are doing are >> > > > > > > preventing upstarts from coming into the world, as the big >> companies can >> > > > > > > shoot them out of the water and entrench their dominance. The >> reality is, >> > > > > > > most patent cases get thrown out of court due to particulars, >> and it's a >> > > > > > > matter of who has the most money in the bank to sustain the >> fight.</rant> >> > > >> > > > > > > But kudo's for trying to think differently. I think the most >> value service >> > > > > > > providers can add is by trying to grow the ecosystem. If you >> actively help >> > > > > > > companiess starting and growing, they will ineventiably need >> services. >> > > > > > > Forming the relationships early on is how you secure future >> profitability. >> > > > > > > It doesn't cost anything to have a coffee with someone and >> give them advice. >> > > > > > > That in my eyes, is the most value you could add - and that >> benefits you >> > > > > > > more than it costs. >> > > >> > > > > > > Elias Bizanneshttp://eliasbizannes.com >> > > >> > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:15 PM, 1_Place < >> drmichaelba...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Silicon Beach >> > > >> > > > > > > > Reading the LifeGuard paper: >> > > > > > > >http://www.siliconbeachaustralia.org/lifeguard/ >> > > > > > > > & <http://www.siliconbeachaustralia.org/lifeguard/%0A&;> >> considering what >> > > > > > > > can we do to help, we thought that we would seek >> > > > > > > > suggestions from Silicon Beach for ways to improve start up >> access to >> > > > > > > > legal and patent attorney services. >> > > >> > > > > > > > Our belief is that there are other obstacles that prevent >> starts up >> > > > > > > > from having a easy path to success, one of which is the cost >> of IP >> > > > > > > > protection - and in particular patent protection! >> > > >> > > > > > > > We would really appreciate any thoughts on how we can offer >> legal and >> > > > > > > > patent attorney services and still survive ourselves. Is >> there a way >> > > > > > > > that we could help IT start ups to secure patent protection >> for new >> > > > > > > > inventions and not go under ourselves? >> > > >> > > > > > > > One way is to provide help for startups to put in their own >> patent >> > > > > > > > applications. We have an initial teaching aid for patents >> at: >> > > > > > > >http://www.1place.com.au/expert/expert_wizard.php?area_id=12 >> > > >> > > > > > > > Please let us know other ways that we could change the way >> legal and >> > > > > > > > attorney services are offered to help make Australia more >> competitive. >> > > > > > > > Any thoughts on this? >> > > >> > > > > > > > We are sure that there are good alternative business models >> worth >> > > > > > > > trying; therefore, we are looking for your input. >> > > >> > > > > > > > Thanks >> > > >> > > > > > > > Michael >> > > > > > > > 1p.com.au- Hide quoted text - >> > > >> > > > > > > - Show quoted text - >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Blog: http://panyam.wordpress.com > Twitter: @panyam > -- Blog: http://panyam.wordpress.com Twitter: @panyam --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Silicon Beach Australia mailing list. 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