Thom, I'm in agreement with your thoughts. Electrical outlets are a potential and typical source of ignition, but in most cases we don't protect them because the construction around them even if combustible meets the exceptions for concealed spaces (sheetrock directly attached to dimensionsl wood members, bays filled with non-combustiblew insulation, etc. How about the infamous Cadet, in-the-wall, resistance type electric heater. I don't see how this is more of a threat when it's in a non-combustible enclosure.
On 7/30/07, Thom McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The course what we have always followed is that "Yes electrical devices are > potential ignition sources" but does 13 require that we protect all ignition > sources? We have always held that a "Fan Coil" unit is a simple electric > blower, similar to a Fart Fan only larger. Add a hot water coil, or a > cooling coil and its really no different. No open flame, No resistance > heating element. This is not a furnace or heat pump with Alux. heat element. > If we start having to protect all fans, at what size do we start and end? > 1/16 Hp and larger? I know of many commercial exhaust fans in > non-combustible ceilings which everyone of us has left un-protected. Because > it is in essentially a one story vertical chase, instead of a ceiling now we > have to protect the chase? > But as Steve says, the AHJ will have the final word, so lets move on. > > Thom McMahon > Firetech, Inc. > 2560 Copper Ridge Dr > Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 > Tel: 970-879-7952 > Fax: 970-879-7926 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:03 AM > Subject: RE: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit > > > Thom, > I'm playing devil's advocate here, don't shoot the messenger. But it's a > matter of how an AHJ interprets the code. It depends on whether the AHJ > sees it as being a "closet" or not. So it's best to know all sides of > the argument so you can have a response ready. It's bad to get blind > sided by an AHJ with stuff like this. > > I saw the section you reference but it could be argued that the section > fails to mention spaces with equipment which could pose a hazard. Plus > 8.15.1.2.1 says with NO access that is not the case here, 8.15.1.2.2 > says with limited access so you might be able to make a case on that > one. > > The space could easily be defined as a mechanical space/mechanical > closet which wouldn't necessarily fit the 8.15.1 criterias. Again, just > depends on the AHJ. > > Depending on the design of the fan coil units, whether they are direct > drive, thermally protected motors, or belt driven, qty of plastics in > the unit, presence of other combustible materials, construction of the > unit, solid steel casings, enclosed/protected electricals, arrangement > of the unit in relation to potential fire spread within the space and > adjacent space just to name a few issues, would be the things I'd look > for in determining if the installation of a head was prudent or not if > the code was not clear. What are the potential results if this thing > shorted out? What is an acceptable level of risk to the owner and > occupants, to the FP contractor? > > Could you convince a jury that based on the wording of 21.20.19.2.1 you > wouldn't need a head in there? > > > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Group > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.lg.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom > McMahon > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:03 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit > > Craig: > I think your way off base here. This is NOT a closet. 8.15.1.2.1, > A8.15.1.2.1, and 8.15.1.2.2 and the commentary pretty clearly describe > this space, as "Concealed Spaces of Non-Combustible or Limited > Combustible Construction" > Thom McMahon > Firetech, Inc. > 2560 Copper Ridge Dr > Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 > Tel: 970-879-7952 > Fax: 970-879-7926 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:30 AM > Subject: RE: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit > > > Check out NFPA 13, 2007, 21.20.19.2.1. Based on that it sounds like you > will have to provide a sprinkler in that space. > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Group > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.lg.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:15 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit > > The size of the concealed space is 4'x2'. The fan coil unit takes about > half of that space, 2'x2'. I don't have some specifics yet, but I > imagine there must be an access panel, about 30"x30", for maintenance. > So storage beside it can be ruled out. > > The floor and ceiling of this space is concrete. Walls are drywall with > steel studs that go from floor to ceiling. > > One fan coil per unit for the apartment type condominiums. In some > suites the diffusers are right on the walls enclosing the fan coil. In > some, there is some ducting to diffusers in adjacent rooms, but always > serving the same suite. > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: July 30, 2007 8:41 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit > > What is the size of the space in which the fan coil resides? Is the > maintenance panel accessible by the tenant? Is the space large enough > where items could be stored adjacent to or around the fan coil unit? > > Where the fan coil resides, is it open above to a common space such as > attic or interstitial space between floors? > > You state the space is non-combustible, does ductwork pass from the > space occupied by the fan coil and into other adjacent spaces or only > serve one occupied unit? > > When you say residential, do you mean like apartments with a single fan > coil unit serving that apartment only? > > Just need some specifics. > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Group > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.lg.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva > Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 4:02 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit > > No takers for my previous question. So re-posting it on the forum. Will > appreciate any reply. > > Tony > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva > Sent: July 27, 2007 7:26 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva > Sent: July 27, 2007 12:05 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Questions to ask when selecting a contractor > > I remember this topic being discussed earlier, but I simply can't find > it in the archives. > > Five storey residential building (actually 4 storey + loft), designed to > NFPA 13 (1996), has electric fan coil units in every suite enclosed > within the walls. From the fan coil there will probably be > grilles/diffusers, open to the suites. Also there might be an access > panel for maintenance. Other than that the space is not accessible and > the construction is non-combustible. > > Question: would this space have to be sprinklered? > > Commonsense says it shouldn't. We have electric fans in non-combustible > ceiling spaces, which are not sprinklered. Any code justification? > > Tony > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
