Thom, you're saying what I'm saying. Depending on what exactly the unit is, could drive the decision of whether to protect or not and ultimately we're subject to the interpretation of the codes by the AHJ. If it's nothing more than a fan with a water based heating/cooling coil then I'd agree with you that it makes no good sense to protect the area.
Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 3:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit The course what we have always followed is that "Yes electrical devices are potential ignition sources" but does 13 require that we protect all ignition sources? We have always held that a "Fan Coil" unit is a simple electric blower, similar to a Fart Fan only larger. Add a hot water coil, or a cooling coil and its really no different. No open flame, No resistance heating element. This is not a furnace or heat pump with Alux. heat element. If we start having to protect all fans, at what size do we start and end? 1/16 Hp and larger? I know of many commercial exhaust fans in non-combustible ceilings which everyone of us has left un-protected. Because it is in essentially a one story vertical chase, instead of a ceiling now we have to protect the chase? But as Steve says, the AHJ will have the final word, so lets move on. Thom McMahon Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: RE: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit Thom, I'm playing devil's advocate here, don't shoot the messenger. But it's a matter of how an AHJ interprets the code. It depends on whether the AHJ sees it as being a "closet" or not. So it's best to know all sides of the argument so you can have a response ready. It's bad to get blind sided by an AHJ with stuff like this. I saw the section you reference but it could be argued that the section fails to mention spaces with equipment which could pose a hazard. Plus 8.15.1.2.1 says with NO access that is not the case here, 8.15.1.2.2 says with limited access so you might be able to make a case on that one. The space could easily be defined as a mechanical space/mechanical closet which wouldn't necessarily fit the 8.15.1 criterias. Again, just depends on the AHJ. Depending on the design of the fan coil units, whether they are direct drive, thermally protected motors, or belt driven, qty of plastics in the unit, presence of other combustible materials, construction of the unit, solid steel casings, enclosed/protected electricals, arrangement of the unit in relation to potential fire spread within the space and adjacent space just to name a few issues, would be the things I'd look for in determining if the installation of a head was prudent or not if the code was not clear. What are the potential results if this thing shorted out? What is an acceptable level of risk to the owner and occupants, to the FP contractor? Could you convince a jury that based on the wording of 21.20.19.2.1 you wouldn't need a head in there? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:03 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit Craig: I think your way off base here. This is NOT a closet. 8.15.1.2.1, A8.15.1.2.1, and 8.15.1.2.2 and the commentary pretty clearly describe this space, as "Concealed Spaces of Non-Combustible or Limited Combustible Construction" Thom McMahon Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 9:30 AM Subject: RE: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit Check out NFPA 13, 2007, 21.20.19.2.1. Based on that it sounds like you will have to provide a sprinkler in that space. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit The size of the concealed space is 4'x2'. The fan coil unit takes about half of that space, 2'x2'. I don't have some specifics yet, but I imagine there must be an access panel, about 30"x30", for maintenance. So storage beside it can be ruled out. The floor and ceiling of this space is concrete. Walls are drywall with steel studs that go from floor to ceiling. One fan coil per unit for the apartment type condominiums. In some suites the diffusers are right on the walls enclosing the fan coil. In some, there is some ducting to diffusers in adjacent rooms, but always serving the same suite. Tony -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 30, 2007 8:41 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit What is the size of the space in which the fan coil resides? Is the maintenance panel accessible by the tenant? Is the space large enough where items could be stored adjacent to or around the fan coil unit? Where the fan coil resides, is it open above to a common space such as attic or interstitial space between floors? You state the space is non-combustible, does ductwork pass from the space occupied by the fan coil and into other adjacent spaces or only serve one occupied unit? When you say residential, do you mean like apartments with a single fan coil unit serving that apartment only? Just need some specifics. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 4:02 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit No takers for my previous question. So re-posting it on the forum. Will appreciate any reply. Tony -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: July 27, 2007 7:26 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Fan Coil Enclosure in dwelling unit -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: July 27, 2007 12:05 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Questions to ask when selecting a contractor I remember this topic being discussed earlier, but I simply can't find it in the archives. Five storey residential building (actually 4 storey + loft), designed to NFPA 13 (1996), has electric fan coil units in every suite enclosed within the walls. From the fan coil there will probably be grilles/diffusers, open to the suites. Also there might be an access panel for maintenance. Other than that the space is not accessible and the construction is non-combustible. Question: would this space have to be sprinklered? Commonsense says it shouldn't. We have electric fans in non-combustible ceiling spaces, which are not sprinklered. Any code justification? 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