Ron and Joe, Thanks for sharing your ideas and experience. It was a life saver.
Jimmy Waite -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 8:17 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Mezzanine/ ESFR "you will have the same control mode sprinkler operating area with ESFR's operating the same as they would if the sprinklers were standard response" Exactly. Thanks for clearing that up. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Sprinkler Phoenix, AZ -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Hankins Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 3:54 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR The area for concern about ESFR protection adjacent to control-mode protection is for a fire that starts near the boundary between the two types of protection, but under the control-mode sprinklers. When you design the control-mode sprinklers for, say 2000 sq.ft., then you are expecting 2000 sq.ft. of sprinklers to operate if a fire starts there. If the fire starts near the boundary and the heat can flow across the ceiling to the ESFR protected area, part of that 2000 sq.ft. will be ESFRs, at 100+gpm per sprinkler rather than the 20 or 30 gpm per control-mode sprinklers. The higher discharge from the ESFRs won't help control the fire, but it will rob water from the control-mode sprinklers. If the fire starts under the ESFRs near the boundary, you are expecting suppression, which means the control-mode sprinklers won't operate. Since the issue is heat flow from control mode to ESFRs, it is a problem when the roof elevation for the control mode and ESFR sprinklers is the same or when the roof of the control mode area is below the ESFR roof. The fix is a draft curtain. It is not a problem when you have a situation where the control mode area roof is higher than the ESFR area roof. When the committee allowed the draft curtain to be eliminated when QR control mode sprinklers were used they only considered half the problem. Yes, with QR sprinklers the QR sprinklers over the fire will operate at least as quickly as ESFRs in the adjacent area, but since they still won't suppress the fire, you will have the same control mode sprinker operating area with ESFRs operating the same as they would if the sprinklers were standard response. Joe Jimmy Waite wrote: > Roland, > > Does that only apply to a change between ESFR and SS Sprinklers at the > same elevation. In our case there is a twenty foot elevation > difference between our standard spray and ESFR heads? Then as a bit > of a side note, if that applies to below a mezzanine why wouldn't I have to carry ESFR coverage 15' > under the mezzanine? Is this situation different because of the > severe elevation change? > > Jimmy Waite > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland > Huggins > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 8:35 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR > > This is where NFPA 13 diverged from FM. 13:8.4.6.4.1 requires said > draft stop for when adjacent spray sprinklers are SR. > > Roland > > On Sep 20, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: > > >> Joe, >> >> Not to beat a dead horse, but where in NFPA 13 does it say a draft >> curtain is required if the control modes are QR? >> >> Ron Fletcher >> Aero Automatic >> Phoenix, AZ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe >> Hankins >> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:30 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR >> >> Art, >> No, because the QR doesn't mean very much in control mode. Unless you >> get suppression below the mezzanine (which you won't with >> control-mode protection), there is a high likelihood that you will >> operate sprinklers at the roof. The only way to take the ceiling >> sprinklers out of the picture is suppression mode under the mezzanine >> or a draft curtain around it. >> >> Joe >> >> art wrote: >> >>> Joe, >>> If the mezz sprinklers are the same temperature and also quick >>> response would the conditions change from what you describe below >>> assuming the correct density for control? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe >>> Hankins >>> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:32 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR >>> >>> If the area below the mezzanine is protected with control-mode >>> sprinklers and the area above with ESFR, a fire below the mezzanine >>> will operate ESFRs at the ceiling above. It's exactly the same as a >>> roof elevation change with ESFRs on the high side and control mode >>> on the low side, where you need a draft curtain and an aisle to >>> separate >>> >> the areas. >> >>> FM recommends a draft curtain around the perimeter of the mezzanine >>> if >>> >>> ESFRs are not provided under it. If ESFRs are provided under the >>> mezzanine, then you can forget the draft curtain as long as there >>> are ESFRs near the perimeter of the mezzanine and no storage beyond them. >>> >>> Sometimes the issue is not the hazard you are protecting, but what >>> will happen during the fire. If you design for the hazard under the >>> mezannine using control mode protection, a fire there can open >>> sprinklers well beyond the actual fire area, up to the design area. >>> If >>> >>> the fire starts near the edge of the mezzanine, the heat that would >>> be >>> >>> expected to operate control mode sprinklers if they were there will >>> operate ESFRs at the ceiling, as well.. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> Fletcher, Ron wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Sprinklers below and ESFR above just like an office area. The >>>> mezzanine is too big to be an obstruction (my opinion), too low to >>>> require ESFR's and you can't omit sprinklers. The 15 ft. rule would >>>> be applied to the full height warehouse and extend 15 ft. past the >>>> >> edge of the mezzanine. >> >>>> Not an issue here unless you want to pull the ESFR's above the >>>> mezzanine and do area density with control mode, but why? >>>> >>>> Ron >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >>>> Jimmy Waite >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:32 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: RE: Mezzanine/ ESFR >>>> >>>> Ron, Thanks for your response. Can I ask your reasoning behind it? >>>> >>>> >>>> Jimmy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >>>> Fletcher, Ron >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:45 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: RE: Mezzanine/ ESFR >>>> >>>> Forget the ESFR's. Just sprinkler the mezzanine. >>>> >>>> Ron Fletcher >>>> Aero Automatic >>>> Phoenix, AZ >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >>>> Jimmy Waite >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 12:25 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Mezzanine/ ESFR >>>> >>>> Hello all again, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Apparently the thing to do out west is to add mezzanines years >>>> after the original building is built, and then sprinkle them after >>>> you get caught/get in trouble. We have a job that is a warehouse >>>> designed with and ESFR system. The owner has since come in and >>>> built a >>>> >> mezzanine. >> >>>> The mezzanine is roughly 67' by 33.5' and is about 9'-10 tall. The >>>> mezzanine is located on an exterior wall, and the warehouse is 30' >>>> tall at the peak. There is no separation around the exterior of >>>> the mezzanine. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Now that I have explained the space, let me explain the scenario. >>>> The space under the mezzanine is used to pull orders. They keep >>>> the merchandise in plastic totes while it is under the mezzanine. >>>> So all >>>> >>>> the storage is transient. The totes sit in a flow through racks, >>>> to hold orders before they go to a truck, that doesn't store above 5'. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Now to my question. Now the standard seems to be pretty clear, >>>> that since there is no separation, the '07 in sections 11.1.2 (1) >>>> and >>>> 12.3 >>>> (1) say that since there is no separation the hazard needs to be >>>> carried 15'-0 beyond the hazard perimeter. Do these sections apply >>>> to both above and below the mezzanine? Would I have to carry the >>>> ESFR design criteria 15' into the mezzanine floor area? This seems >>>> a >>>> >>>> bit much considering the space would normally be misc. storage in >>>> the'07. But I also can see the justification to increase the >>>> design criteria since the mezzanine is surrounded on three sides by >>>> storage. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If ESFR is required I know I'll have several problems. I won't >>>> have the clearance needed between the deflector and storage. Also, >>>> the mezzanine is non-combustible Obstructed construction. Would >>>> there be >>>> >>>> any other design criteria I could use, other than ESFR? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've never done an ESFR system before and definitely need the help. >>>> I have pictures that could clarify what I'm talking about if anyone >>>> would like them that I willing to give some suggestions. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jimmy Waite >>>> >>>> Burtell Fire Protection, Inc. >>>> >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>>> (406) 652-7697 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject >> field) >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
