This is where NFPA 13 diverged from FM. 13:8.4.6.4.1 requires said
draft stop for when adjacent spray sprinklers are SR.
Roland
On Sep 20, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Fletcher, Ron wrote:
Joe,
Not to beat a dead horse, but where in NFPA 13 does it say a draft
curtain is required if the control modes are QR?
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe
Hankins
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR
Art,
No, because the QR doesn't mean very much in control mode. Unless you
get suppression below the mezzanine (which you won't with control-mode
protection), there is a high likelihood that you will operate
sprinklers
at the roof. The only way to take the ceiling sprinklers out of the
picture is suppression mode under the mezzanine or a draft curtain
around it.
Joe
art wrote:
Joe,
If the mezz sprinklers are the same temperature and also quick
response would the conditions change from what you describe below
assuming the correct density for control?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe
Hankins
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR
If the area below the mezzanine is protected with control-mode
sprinklers and the area above with ESFR, a fire below the mezzanine
will operate ESFRs at the ceiling above. It's exactly the same as a
roof elevation change with ESFRs on the high side and control mode on
the low side, where you need a draft curtain and an aisle to separate
the areas.
FM recommends a draft curtain around the perimeter of the
mezzanine if
ESFRs are not provided under it. If ESFRs are provided under the
mezzanine, then you can forget the draft curtain as long as there are
ESFRs near the perimeter of the mezzanine and no storage beyond them.
Sometimes the issue is not the hazard you are protecting, but what
will happen during the fire. If you design for the hazard under the
mezannine using control mode protection, a fire there can open
sprinklers well beyond the actual fire area, up to the design
area. If
the fire starts near the edge of the mezzanine, the heat that
would be
expected to operate control mode sprinklers if they were there will
operate ESFRs at the ceiling, as well..
Joe
Fletcher, Ron wrote:
Sprinklers below and ESFR above just like an office area. The
mezzanine is too big to be an obstruction (my opinion), too low to
require ESFR's and you can't omit sprinklers. The 15 ft. rule would
be applied to the full height warehouse and extend 15 ft. past the
edge of the mezzanine.
Not an issue here unless you want to pull the ESFR's above the
mezzanine and do area density with control mode, but why?
Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jimmy
Waite
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Mezzanine/ ESFR
Ron, Thanks for your response. Can I ask your reasoning behind it?
Jimmy
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Mezzanine/ ESFR
Forget the ESFR's. Just sprinkler the mezzanine.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jimmy
Waite
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 12:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Mezzanine/ ESFR
Hello all again,
Apparently the thing to do out west is to add mezzanines years after
the original building is built, and then sprinkle them after you get
caught/get in trouble. We have a job that is a warehouse designed
with and ESFR system. The owner has since come in and built a
mezzanine.
The mezzanine is roughly 67' by 33.5' and is about 9'-10 tall. The
mezzanine is located on an exterior wall, and the warehouse is 30'
tall at the peak. There is no separation around the exterior of the
mezzanine.
Now that I have explained the space, let me explain the scenario.
The space under the mezzanine is used to pull orders. They keep the
merchandise in plastic totes while it is under the mezzanine. So
all
the storage is transient. The totes sit in a flow through racks, to
hold orders before they go to a truck, that doesn't store above 5'.
Now to my question. Now the standard seems to be pretty clear, that
since there is no separation, the '07 in sections 11.1.2 (1) and
12.3
(1) say that since there is no separation the hazard needs to be
carried 15'-0 beyond the hazard perimeter. Do these sections apply
to both above and below the mezzanine? Would I have to carry the
ESFR design criteria 15' into the mezzanine floor area? This
seems a
bit much considering the space would normally be misc. storage in
the'07. But I also can see the justification to increase the design
criteria since the mezzanine is surrounded on three sides by
storage.
If ESFR is required I know I'll have several problems. I won't have
the clearance needed between the deflector and storage. Also, the
mezzanine is non-combustible Obstructed construction. Would
there be
any other design criteria I could use, other than ESFR?
I've never done an ESFR system before and definitely need the help.
I have pictures that could clarify what I'm talking about if anyone
would like them that I willing to give some suggestions.
Jimmy Waite
Burtell Fire Protection, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(406) 652-7697
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