Roland, Does that only apply to a change between ESFR and SS Sprinklers at the same elevation. In our case there is a twenty foot elevation difference between our standard spray and ESFR heads? Then as a bit of a side note, if that applies to below a mezzanine why wouldn't I have to carry ESFR coverage 15' under the mezzanine? Is this situation different because of the severe elevation change?
Jimmy Waite -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 8:35 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR This is where NFPA 13 diverged from FM. 13:8.4.6.4.1 requires said draft stop for when adjacent spray sprinklers are SR. Roland On Sep 20, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Fletcher, Ron wrote: > Joe, > > Not to beat a dead horse, but where in NFPA 13 does it say a draft > curtain is required if the control modes are QR? > > Ron Fletcher > Aero Automatic > Phoenix, AZ > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe > Hankins > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:30 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR > > Art, > No, because the QR doesn't mean very much in control mode. Unless you > get suppression below the mezzanine (which you won't with control-mode > protection), there is a high likelihood that you will operate > sprinklers > at the roof. The only way to take the ceiling sprinklers out of the > picture is suppression mode under the mezzanine or a draft curtain > around it. > > Joe > > art wrote: >> Joe, >> If the mezz sprinklers are the same temperature and also quick >> response would the conditions change from what you describe below >> assuming the correct density for control? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe >> Hankins >> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:32 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR >> >> If the area below the mezzanine is protected with control-mode >> sprinklers and the area above with ESFR, a fire below the mezzanine >> will operate ESFRs at the ceiling above. It's exactly the same as a >> roof elevation change with ESFRs on the high side and control mode on >> the low side, where you need a draft curtain and an aisle to separate > the areas. >> >> FM recommends a draft curtain around the perimeter of the >> mezzanine if > >> ESFRs are not provided under it. If ESFRs are provided under the >> mezzanine, then you can forget the draft curtain as long as there are >> ESFRs near the perimeter of the mezzanine and no storage beyond them. >> >> Sometimes the issue is not the hazard you are protecting, but what >> will happen during the fire. If you design for the hazard under the >> mezannine using control mode protection, a fire there can open >> sprinklers well beyond the actual fire area, up to the design >> area. If > >> the fire starts near the edge of the mezzanine, the heat that >> would be > >> expected to operate control mode sprinklers if they were there will >> operate ESFRs at the ceiling, as well.. >> >> Joe >> >> Fletcher, Ron wrote: >> >>> Sprinklers below and ESFR above just like an office area. The >>> mezzanine is too big to be an obstruction (my opinion), too low to >>> require ESFR's and you can't omit sprinklers. The 15 ft. rule would >>> be applied to the full height warehouse and extend 15 ft. past the > edge of the mezzanine. >>> Not an issue here unless you want to pull the ESFR's above the >>> mezzanine and do area density with control mode, but why? >>> >>> Ron >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jimmy >>> Waite >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:32 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: RE: Mezzanine/ ESFR >>> >>> Ron, Thanks for your response. Can I ask your reasoning behind it? >>> >>> >>> Jimmy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >>> Fletcher, Ron >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:45 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: RE: Mezzanine/ ESFR >>> >>> Forget the ESFR's. Just sprinkler the mezzanine. >>> >>> Ron Fletcher >>> Aero Automatic >>> Phoenix, AZ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jimmy >>> Waite >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 12:25 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Mezzanine/ ESFR >>> >>> Hello all again, >>> >>> >>> >>> Apparently the thing to do out west is to add mezzanines years after >>> the original building is built, and then sprinkle them after you get >>> caught/get in trouble. We have a job that is a warehouse designed >>> with and ESFR system. The owner has since come in and built a > mezzanine. >>> The mezzanine is roughly 67' by 33.5' and is about 9'-10 tall. The >>> mezzanine is located on an exterior wall, and the warehouse is 30' >>> tall at the peak. There is no separation around the exterior of the >>> mezzanine. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now that I have explained the space, let me explain the scenario. >>> The space under the mezzanine is used to pull orders. They keep the >>> merchandise in plastic totes while it is under the mezzanine. So >>> all > >>> the storage is transient. The totes sit in a flow through racks, to >>> hold orders before they go to a truck, that doesn't store above 5'. >>> >>> >>> >>> Now to my question. Now the standard seems to be pretty clear, that >>> since there is no separation, the '07 in sections 11.1.2 (1) and >>> 12.3 >>> (1) say that since there is no separation the hazard needs to be >>> carried 15'-0 beyond the hazard perimeter. Do these sections apply >>> to both above and below the mezzanine? Would I have to carry the >>> ESFR design criteria 15' into the mezzanine floor area? This >>> seems a > >>> bit much considering the space would normally be misc. storage in >>> the'07. But I also can see the justification to increase the design >>> criteria since the mezzanine is surrounded on three sides by >>> storage. >>> >>> >>> >>> If ESFR is required I know I'll have several problems. I won't have >>> the clearance needed between the deflector and storage. Also, the >>> mezzanine is non-combustible Obstructed construction. Would >>> there be > >>> any other design criteria I could use, other than ESFR? >>> >>> >>> >>> I've never done an ESFR system before and definitely need the help. >>> I have pictures that could clarify what I'm talking about if anyone >>> would like them that I willing to give some suggestions. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jimmy Waite >>> >>> Burtell Fire Protection, Inc. >>> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> (406) 652-7697 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
