Joe, Not to beat a dead horse, but where in NFPA 13 does it say a draft curtain is required if the control modes are QR?
Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Hankins Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR Art, No, because the QR doesn't mean very much in control mode. Unless you get suppression below the mezzanine (which you won't with control-mode protection), there is a high likelihood that you will operate sprinklers at the roof. The only way to take the ceiling sprinklers out of the picture is suppression mode under the mezzanine or a draft curtain around it. Joe art wrote: > Joe, > If the mezz sprinklers are the same temperature and also quick > response would the conditions change from what you describe below > assuming the correct density for control? > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe > Hankins > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:32 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Mezzanine/ ESFR > > If the area below the mezzanine is protected with control-mode > sprinklers and the area above with ESFR, a fire below the mezzanine > will operate ESFRs at the ceiling above. It's exactly the same as a > roof elevation change with ESFRs on the high side and control mode on > the low side, where you need a draft curtain and an aisle to separate the areas. > > FM recommends a draft curtain around the perimeter of the mezzanine if > ESFRs are not provided under it. If ESFRs are provided under the > mezzanine, then you can forget the draft curtain as long as there are > ESFRs near the perimeter of the mezzanine and no storage beyond them. > > Sometimes the issue is not the hazard you are protecting, but what > will happen during the fire. If you design for the hazard under the > mezannine using control mode protection, a fire there can open > sprinklers well beyond the actual fire area, up to the design area. If > the fire starts near the edge of the mezzanine, the heat that would be > expected to operate control mode sprinklers if they were there will > operate ESFRs at the ceiling, as well.. > > Joe > > Fletcher, Ron wrote: > >> Sprinklers below and ESFR above just like an office area. The >> mezzanine is too big to be an obstruction (my opinion), too low to >> require ESFR's and you can't omit sprinklers. The 15 ft. rule would >> be applied to the full height warehouse and extend 15 ft. past the edge of the mezzanine. >> Not an issue here unless you want to pull the ESFR's above the >> mezzanine and do area density with control mode, but why? >> >> Ron >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jimmy >> Waite >> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:32 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Mezzanine/ ESFR >> >> Ron, Thanks for your response. Can I ask your reasoning behind it? >> >> >> Jimmy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of >> Fletcher, Ron >> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:45 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Mezzanine/ ESFR >> >> Forget the ESFR's. Just sprinkler the mezzanine. >> >> Ron Fletcher >> Aero Automatic >> Phoenix, AZ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jimmy >> Waite >> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 12:25 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Mezzanine/ ESFR >> >> Hello all again, >> >> >> >> Apparently the thing to do out west is to add mezzanines years after >> the original building is built, and then sprinkle them after you get >> caught/get in trouble. We have a job that is a warehouse designed >> with and ESFR system. The owner has since come in and built a mezzanine. >> The mezzanine is roughly 67' by 33.5' and is about 9'-10 tall. The >> mezzanine is located on an exterior wall, and the warehouse is 30' >> tall at the peak. There is no separation around the exterior of the >> mezzanine. >> >> >> >> Now that I have explained the space, let me explain the scenario. >> The space under the mezzanine is used to pull orders. They keep the >> merchandise in plastic totes while it is under the mezzanine. So all >> the storage is transient. The totes sit in a flow through racks, to >> hold orders before they go to a truck, that doesn't store above 5'. >> >> >> >> Now to my question. Now the standard seems to be pretty clear, that >> since there is no separation, the '07 in sections 11.1.2 (1) and 12.3 >> (1) say that since there is no separation the hazard needs to be >> carried 15'-0 beyond the hazard perimeter. Do these sections apply >> to both above and below the mezzanine? Would I have to carry the >> ESFR design criteria 15' into the mezzanine floor area? This seems a >> bit much considering the space would normally be misc. storage in >> the'07. But I also can see the justification to increase the design >> criteria since the mezzanine is surrounded on three sides by storage. >> >> >> >> If ESFR is required I know I'll have several problems. I won't have >> the clearance needed between the deflector and storage. Also, the >> mezzanine is non-combustible Obstructed construction. Would there be >> any other design criteria I could use, other than ESFR? >> >> >> >> I've never done an ESFR system before and definitely need the help. >> I have pictures that could clarify what I'm talking about if anyone >> would like them that I willing to give some suggestions. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jimmy Waite >> >> Burtell Fire Protection, Inc. >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> (406) 652-7697 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
